[GNS480/CNX80] What is the simplest way to input a Radial/DME waypoint into the flight plan?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by AggieMike88, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    GNS480/CNX80 question....

    When Dan Flagg I an were returning from Ozzie's Breakfast at KOUN last Sunday, were were given the following IFR Clearance:

    "Cleared to the Gainesville Airport. Fly runway heading then direct IRW, then the Ardmore 310 Radial 30 DME, Ardmore, then Direct. Climb 3000, expect 5000 within in 10 minutes. Departure Frequency 120.45. Squawk XXXX"

    The question is: what is the simplest way to input the Radial/DME waypoint into the 480's flight plan?

    For the GTN's it's easy to create a userway point. But how to do it for the 480?

    (Since we didn't know the answer at the time, we figured out how to plot it on our EFB's. However, as soon as Dan made contact with OKC Departure, he was given direct Ardmore, so that trumped all of our head scratching).
     
  2. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    I can't speak to specific equipment, but ATC computers accept fix-radial-distance: Nine characters, with three letters and six numbers. Assuming that the designation for Ardmore is ARD, that would be ARD310030

    Bob
     
  3. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't have my plane to go look at right now, but I know you can create a new user wpt that's a radial/distance from anything else in the database. You may have to create one of those and then you can add it to your flight plan.
     
  4. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ardmore VOR is "ADM. With ForeFlight, the input to mark VOR/Radial/DME is similar.... "ADM/310R/30"
     
  5. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Speaking of ForeFlight, does anyone know how to change LAT/LON on their site from decimal degrees to D.M.S? I've asked them twice but no response.
     
  6. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe I need to get a job with FF support.... found the answer within 30 seconds of launching FF...

    In the settings area, go to the bottom preferences section. Then Units/Time, then coordinates.
     
  7. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    On their site, Right? Not in my FF App.
     
  8. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My info was from the iPad. No info (yet) on how to switch in plan.foreflight.com
     
  9. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Probably lat/long as well.
     
  10. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Spent some time in the airplane today. There is no “direct” way to do what I was asking about with the 480.

    So I’ll have to use the work around of plugging in the VOR/radial/distance into ForeFlight, then press/hold on the screen at the point to see if there is a named intersection at that point or very nearby, then dial that into the 480.

    If flying the club’s Bonanza with the GTN750, its an easy thing to specify a user waypoint with VOR/radial/distance info. Then that user waypoint can be plugged into the flight plan. Might be same method for GTN 650.
     
  11. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Same for all gear designed by Garmin. The 480 wasn't.
     
  12. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    According to the Pilot's Guide, there is...

    Not terribly helpful, I know. The picture they give in the PG doesn't show an example reference waypoint, so it isn't clear how you enter it or exactly where it's displayed. (It does show the range/bearing field though.) And I have never had occasion to use this function. But apparently it does exist.
     
  13. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Bearing/distance is not radial/radial, which the 480 may, or may not, support.
     
  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    I'd think that would be easy enough to fix with a 'firm ware' update. But then I've never even seen a 480. And I'm not sure if 'firm ware' is what I really mean.
     
  15. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    That's been around for almost forever. Hard to believe the 480 was invented without accommodating that.
     
  16. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    We need to hear from a current and competent 480 user. I suspect that population is declining.
     
  17. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Could you clarify what you mean? The OP was asking about radial/DME, not radial/radial. And if you meant radial/DME, are you talking about the difference between radial and magnetic direction due to station declination, or something else? If you mean station declination not necessarily matching the actual magnetic variation at the station, that's a good point and I'm pretty sure the 480 does NOT support it, but does even the GTN series support it?
     
  18. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I want to create a user waypoint at the intersection of V-564 and T-259. I use the NIKOL 052 and the OAL 323. This works fine in a G-XXXX and I presume in the GTN series. I believe the area mag var is used for NIKOL and the station declination for OAL. Or, I could use the MVA 143 instead of the OAL 323.
     

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  19. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I plotted my user waypoint in my GIS program and compared it with the user waypoint I created in a GXXX trainer using NIKOL R-052 and MVA R-143. The user waypoint is .32 nm south of the precise location from my GIS program. I'd say that is "close enough for government work," especially since it is an en route ad hoc fix. I would file the LAT/LON from the Garmin, not from my GIS program.
     
  20. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I did something like this for my house in the country. Maybe you can use the map cursor in 'Measure distance' mode. The Lat/Long is needed to create a user waypoint. Using the 480, go into OBS-VLOC mode and dial in the 310 radial. In cursor mode, using start point of ADM VOR. Drag the cursor along your magenta line just created until 30 miles is displayed. Copy Lat/Long of that point. I would then come up with a name for this waypoint. For instance, ZR or some other non database name. At that point it says it can't find that WP and would you like to create/add one. 'Yes' - Enter lat/long and you should be set.

    I'm a novice so hopefully I'm not on a tangent here
    -MF
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  21. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Yeah. Interesting that the GTN series supports actual radials based on station declination. It's a good question for the GNS480 user group, but I'm pretty sure if you define a user WP using the fix/bearing format from a VOR on the 480, it will be magnetic bearing, not the radial. It COULD special case when the fix is a VOR and use station declination (assuming that information is in the DB), but I've never seen any documentation that says they do that, so I assume they don't. Keith Thomassen would probably know for sure.
     
  22. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I gave the only suggestion I could imagine (User WPT), I guess I'm not "competent" enough of a GNS480.

    As for airway or radial intersections, the GNS480 doesn't accommodate them unless there is an existing (or perhaps user generated) fix at the intersection. Not sure how you'd put that in an FAA IFR flight plan without inventing a fix as well.
     
  23. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    looks like there isn't a way to do it without spending a lot of time creating a user generated waypoint. I think I'd just tell the guy giving me that clearance to "give that to me as a radial and DME off of IRW." Then you can just VLOC it on down there. Of course you'd still be in never never land if they told you to go direct there instead of 'join the IRW whatever radial and resume own nav.' You can always just say "change my type aircraft to a 'whatever your flying slant A' and make them give you a route you can fly.
     
  24. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I believe that goes back to the 400 and 500 series.
     
  25. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't think I've used a IFR GPS that doesn't. Isn't this a certification requirement.
     
  26. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    Why not put ADM in flight plan and the freq for ADM on the NAV side and fly it off the needle?
     
  27. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Perhaps now but surely not when the 480 was certified. The WAAS TSO is really a shell. The hard specifications are in an RTCA document, which has been revised since the 480 was certified. I believe the 480 was certified as a WAAS navigator, unlike the early 400/500 series.
     
  28. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    The folk lore I was treated to was that Garmin bought Apollo because of the CX80/GNS480. They didn't have any WAAS product at the time so they bought the team and then worked up the WAAS versions of the GNS4/5 series as new units or an upgrade for certain serial numbers.

    Not sure how true that all is. But I've heard the tale told many times.

    Next month we're doing the WAAS upgrade on the Cardinal's 430.

    I'll be almost 2020 compliant. Both club planes will be 430W with GTX345. Candy is just 430W for now, but will probably get the echoUAT in time for the mandate.
     
  29. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There you go again... bring practical and making sense..... who do you think you are? A pilot??


    Sunday, I did a flight DTO to RVS and was given a waypoint defined by crossing radials that extend from FUZ and ADM.

    But I already knew from prior flights that there was a defined fix within 0.4 miles of that point named LOWGN. That was found by tapping on ForeFlight where the radials crossed and seeing what was nearby.

    So when programming the 480 for that flight, I just put in LOWGN versus trying to figure out how to do the VORs and their radials.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  30. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    That don't get you from IRW direct to the ADM310030 which was the clearance given
     
  31. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think UPSAT's early forays into ADSB was also a driving force in the aquisition. Garmin had the GDL90, but nothing to connect it to.
     
  32. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    Wally there are no settings on the Web version, so DD.dd is your only option. The iPad version supports multiple formats, but not the web version.
     
  33. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    My understanding is that the GDL90 was an UPSAT design and part of the acquisition.
     
  34. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    It is implied by the TSO requirement in the RTCA document. "If the leg is not part of a procedure and the active fix is a VOR, the magnetic variation to be used is the published station declination for the VOR." While not specifically covering the topic of a user waypoint, it only makes sense that a user waypoint based on a VOR-radial-distance would also use the declination of the VOR, or fixes intended to appear on a radial would be generated in error.
     
  35. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Thanks John. I will have to try it next time I'm up to be sure. Certainly the 480 is in compliance with that requirement when it comes to course legs from and to VORs, or it couldn't do airways correctly. I'm never convinced, though, that what makes sense is necessarily how it is done without testing it out, particularly given how old the 480's design is.
     
  36. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Airways are TF to TF, so errors in variation or declination have no effect other than to perhaps show as a slight crosswind. If the CDI is centered, you're in the center of the airway.
     
  37. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Strange. I could swear I've seen airways with doglegs and no named fix at the dogleg. But the only examples I can find today have computer fixes at the dogleg. I always thought the actual definition was in terms of radials even though most could be flown by TF legs. Learn something every day!
     
  38. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That was certainly the case back in the day, but I think the FAA went around putting CNF or other fixes on most of them.

    There are still cases where airway's cross without a fix however. But you can neither file them nor can ATC process such a route unless you invent some radial/distance or the like fix at the intersection.
     
  39. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    I know about airway crossings without a fix, but I've never seen a bend at an airway crossing without a named fix there. I was talking about examples like V450 west of CUTTY, where I vaguely recall that at one time the dogleg was an unnamed changeover point between FNT and MKG. But I see there's a CNF fix there now. I'm not sure if I just never noticed it before, or if it's been added since I last looked at that part of the chart.
     
  40. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Like I said, bends in the airway used to exist without a fix there. They'd just show an 'x'. Now you'll usually find a fix name in parens (a CNF fix) or that they've just stuck a real intersection there (triangle).

    Of course, if your instruments are accurate enough to raise compliments from other pilots, you can just go direct to the last fix on the airway :)