GI-275 in the Moving Map Mode – Pirep Please!

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Rob58, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The base model of the GI-275 is advertised as being very versatile. In addition to the basic CDI function, Garmin talks about a dedicated traffic page, a moving map page and an airport information page. As I understand it these options can be selected from the touchscreen. Looking for feedback on just how useful these various features are? Any and all comments are much appreciated!
     
  2. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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    Supplementary question to above:

    Can the same moving map capability be superimposed when the GI-275 is installed as an HSI?
    If so, how practical is it IRL used that way, particularly for IFR? Is it a situational awareness improvement, or does it just clutter up the screen and make it more difficult to read the important HSI information on an approach?
     
  3. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    i think there is a synthetic vision unlock on 275 that was mentioned in one of their webinars, i cant remember if its on the AI of HSI, most likely AI.

    pinging @Jdm
     
  4. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    looks like it

    upload_2020-11-17_10-35-36.png
     
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  5. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'm interested -- eventually -- in a GI275 used in this manner. I like the idea of my backup CDI display having some utility during everyday ops, rather than virtually none for 99.9% of my flight time. A dedicated traffic or possibly moving map display could have some merit, albeit it's a heck of a small screen for the latter, no? I'd be curious to see it in action and hear how pilots like it in practice.
     
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  6. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi Ryan... I think you have correctly described the appeal of the CDI base version of the GI-275 for many of us. This is what motivated my original post here. I am hoping to get some feedback from folks that have made the move and are using the instrument in this mode. In busy areas I spend a lot of time watching the traffic hits on my iPad, but I would prefer to have this information in the instrument panel where it can be part of my scan. But the size of the device has me questioning how useful this mode of display might be. Hope we can get a few replies from some people that have been using the unit.
     
  7. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Line Up and Wait

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    I have the GI275 as my HSI indicator. Moving map mode is part of the HSI installation. I really like it. Yes the screen is bright enough and big enough to be useful. It does duplicate the moving map of your navigator (like a 650 or whatever) so in some sense it’s kind of gimmicky, but on another, it can display a mode (terrain, for instance) that is not on the navigator, and I really like it how it will chart your course and turns just like on the moving map of your GPS when flying IFR. Very nice to help anticipate turns and for situational awareness along your route. It actually displays traffic better than on a 650, if you look at the icons they both use you’ll see what I mean. VFR, I fly in the mountains a lot, and like having terrain which makes canyons and lower terrain super obvious just in case I were to get turned around in smoke or weather.

    In the end, you’re really just choosing between the G5 and a GI275 so the question is whether it’s worth the incremental dollars, and in my opinion, it definitely is.
     
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  8. Jdm

    Jdm Line Up and Wait

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    I have the GI275 in the capacity you’ve described, along with the 650xi and dual G5’s. The 275’s various pages are incredibly useful. It’s become my favorite instrument.
     
  9. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    Would you mind sharing a photo (or even better, a video) of it in action?

    I don't want to use the GI275 as an HSI, so seeing it as a backup CDI with this other functionality is of primary interest to me...
     
  10. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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  11. Jdm

    Jdm Line Up and Wait

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    Yep, that it. Thanks GRG55
     
  12. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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    My assumption is your two G5s were installed first and the GI 275 was installed somewhat later?

    On that assumption, my question: Given the current choices of G5 and GI 275 would you install GI 275s in the ADI and HSI instrument positions (instead of the G5s) if you were to do the upgrade today?

    @Ryan F. has indicated on this thread and prior that he would not want to have a GI 275 in either of the two primary gyro instrument positions - ADI & HSI. This is primarily due to preference for the larger "real estate" of the square shape of the G5s.

    I ask because I am being driven towards the GI 275 to replace mine because of its ability to work with my Piper/Century autopilot. But @Ryan F. makes a valid point. I do note, however, despite the smaller screen the primary instrument symbols appear to be larger on the GI 275 compared to the G5? And that screen resolution on the GI 275 is impressive!
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  13. Jdm

    Jdm Line Up and Wait

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    Nope. All at the same time. We placed an order in Dec of 2019 for 2 G5’s and a 650. In Jan of 2020 Garmin introduced the Xi’s and the 275 but we were not aware, and they weren’t about to tell us! It wasn’t until another month that I became aware of the new equipment options. Garmin refused to exchange any of our uninstalled equipment for the new stuff because it had been over than 30 days. We fought it with everything shy of a law suit. Finally they offered up the 650xi. We were fine with the G5’s all along so we left it at that.
    We had put off the decision for our #2 nav com until the last minute because of being undecided. After a lot of hashing we decided on a GNC255A but we really wanted it to have its own CDI and we want the capability to source select from #1 or #2. The price of the GI-275 was not much more than a new Garmin analog indicator yet it offered so much extra. We ultimately placed a 2nd order for the #2 setup and we couldn’t be happier with the results.


    Yes indeed. I wouldn’t hesitate to go with the GI-275 over the G5’s.

    Exactly. It’s not even comparable.
     
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  14. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think for me the presentation is the "swing vote" but the cost is what keeps me in the G5s more than anything else. The GI275 is a really impressive piece of tech, but the delta between dual G5s and dual GI275s is pretty significant. I don't think there's any question that what the GI275s can do on paper far outstrip the G5s. Question is, do you need it? Can you use it? Especially for two of the most important displays in the aircraft?

    There's a lot of subjectivity in all of this of course, especially when it comes to presentation. Personally, I've never cared for cluttered displays. I have comparatively massive displays in work aircraft which are infinitely configurable, practically... and I tend to leave my HSI decluttered and put everything else of note on the MFD. I'd say most if not all of the pilots I work with are the same way; we like a simple PFD presentation. We have synthetic vision but I usually don't use it. When the Sandel EHSIs were new in the early 00s I was really fascinated by them. My intro to EHSIs came from teaching a client in his PA30 with a brand new SN3308 installed. Right away I looked for ways to remove information from the display rather than add anything. Doesn't make me right or wrong, it's just how I fly -- simple primary instrumentation displays, and let the information "flow down" elsewhere, such as MFDs, Navigators, iPads, etc. I'm a UI and Human Factors guy so if anything I think through these things to the extremes. Checklist design, flight deck configuration, where I hold an iPad on my lap and how I write on it... the sum of all these details make up the whole of the man-machine "interface" and these instruments are right in the center of the whole shebang. Not a small decision!

    Without calling anyone right or wrong, I'd venture to guess that most "GA grade" avionics are designed for what pilots think they want rather than what they really need.

    Garmin must have done the market research and determined that owners place very high value on keeping the 3.25" form factor, not having to cut up or redesign their panels. I understand it from a marketing perspective especially considering the many ways the display can be used, i.e. CDI, MFD, other configurable "pages" which would be in a non-primary flight instrument application. The majority of us would just as soon drop one of these instruments into the old "hole." But I wish they'd done a "square" GI275... I'd have been all over that.

    If you're comparing presentation the real question is what you can interpret at a glance, not the display size itself, not the screen resolution, etc. In my world, it only takes a quick glance at both displays to favor the G5, especially with the G5's "zoomed display" option which finally came about in a recent software upgrade. They're not calling it arc view, but that's pretty much what it is.

    I think the GI275 is a great piece of equipment, and I wouldn't turn one down for the right price. Mainly for the AP integration options. But don't forget to compare apples to apples in terms of the display. The unit itself is a touchscreen, which could be a positive or a negative in different situations. That means some of the display is eaten up by the interface. And the price to pay for this is information which is inevitably "layered." You don't get a full view of the compass rose -- all kinds of information sits on top of that. You don't get a full view of the primary HSI area, either... configuration buttons appear there. The vertical path display also rides inside the compass rose. None of these things are individually a deal-breaker, and for that matter maybe all of them combined aren't either. I think keeping the 3.25" round display factor is a major design compromise. The question is how much you get vs. how much you lose... and that is in the eye of the beholder.
     
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  15. Jdm

    Jdm Line Up and Wait

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    Same here and also IP the Human Factors, FPM, etc. I totally agree with your declutter mentality but in the case of the G5 vs GI275 I fly them both and have a preference for the 275 due to reasons previously mentioned. Great display
     
  16. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is great feedback to my original post - thanks for the feedback. Ryan, your comments are worthy of an FAA safety seminar! I'm going with the GI-275 as a CDI display and then down the road decide what I will replace the AI & DG with, maybe even the AV-30 if it proves to be more reliable and better supported than it is now. Actually my complaint with the G5 is more subjective: I just don't like putting a square peg in a round hole, even if it fits!
     
  17. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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    @Jdm and @Ryan F. many thanks for the detailed information and perspective on this and the prior thread. Integrating this with my other research as I move to a decision.

    Jdm, that's quite a saga with Garmin. Got to admit I don't understand why they wouldn't have agreed to upsell you from the brand new, yet to be installed G5s to a pair of GI 275s. I would have thought if Garmin wouldn't do it your dealer would be happy to take the G5s and get the upsale. Can't imagine a pair of G5s would be that difficult to resell? :confused:
     
  18. Jdm

    Jdm Line Up and Wait

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    They probably would have if we had pressed that angle. We were so focused on getting our unopened 650 exchanged for a 650Xi that we didn’t even consider pressing the G5s. Keep in mind that we had planned for the G5 for a long time and were excited about the upgrade. The GI-275s were hot off the press. We had no way of understanding the advantages back then and were totally ok with keeping the G5’s as planned.

    All in all we are EXTREMELY happy with the panel turnout. However, if we had it to do over I’m roughly 100% sure I’d go with full up GI-275s. Just saying:)
     
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  19. PPC1052

    PPC1052 Final Approach

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    I also like the longer battery back-up time for the G5s. Not sure how important that is, though.
     
  20. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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    Why?

    If you lose your electrical system are you planning to spend more than an hour wandering around in the clouds?

    The Cessna test standard for one of the G1000 equipped 182s at our airport is 55 minutes maintaining >20 volts.

    The 60 minute battery in the GI 275 should be plenty.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  21. PPC1052

    PPC1052 Final Approach

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    No, not planning to.
     
  22. Ed Haywood

    Ed Haywood Line Up and Wait

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    Time to update the old adage about most useless things in aviation: runway behind you, altitude above you, fuel on the ground, and uncharged battery capacity.
     
  23. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  24. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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    Well, well. The owner of a turbocharged A36 Bonanza in the hangar right next to mine has his panel apart. He is in the midst of upgrading his 530W to a 750, new audio panel and installing two GI-275s in the middle of the six-pack. Primary reason for the GI-275s is his legacy autopilot - same issue I have. I'm looking forward to seeing how the GI-275s compare with the G5s we have been installing in our Club 172s.
     
  25. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    Now that's what I've been looking for.

    Thanks!
     
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  26. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    Interesting timing for it all. Today I had a nice long conversation with the avionics shop to consider -- yet again -- the possibility of a pair of GI275s in lieu of an additional G5 (installed as an HSI) to go along with my G5 ADI. The GI275 is an excellent piece of equipment, but the primary motivation in my installation is purely related to my old Altimatic III -- namely, as previously stated, GI 275 ADI can run it. The G5 ADI can't. (Don't confuse it with the HSI -- different story -- which can talk to the Century autopilots for nav, but it's not a complete solution.)

    We penciled it out and came up with a delta of around $8,000 to install two GI275s vs. install an additional G5.

    That delta alone is 8-10% of the value of my aircraft.

    After sitting on the decision all day, and consulting with close friends/colleagues in the business, yet again, the G5s win out... because I have hope that ultimately my legacy attitude indicator will be replaced by a new digital version from some currently unknown mfgr. Honestly, I prefer the G5s. That's just my personal preference, in no way reflective of the capability of the units themselves. I'm the first to agree that the GI275 are far better devices as they sit on paper. But in terms of an ADI and HSI presentation, I simply prefer the G5s. Maybe it's my relative longevity bias speaking or maybe it's just my focus on HF, or maybe I'm just curmudgeonly. But it doesn't matter, because that's not the dealbreaker. I could live with the GI275s to replace the centerline of my six-pack, but I can't live with that price delta just to get rid of my vacuum system. At the end of the day, that's what the hand-wringing is really about -- not the extra featureset of the GI275, which I a) don't really need) and b) largely don't want.

    But the GI275 as a MFI... now that's a totally different story. What a great use of space! To turn your backup CDI into a display like that adds a ton of utility and makes complete sense to me. But it will have to wait for a future upgrade budget. For now, I'm looking forward to finally ditching my DG after 20 years of resetting the darned thing every 15 minutes. I won't miss it!
     
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  27. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Line Up and Wait

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    As mentioned above, I have a GI275 as HSI, so I’m not completely out of the loop on this one (or a naysayer) but why would you spend the money to buy a GI275 for your CDI? Maybe you get a lot of other “modes” in that install, but I can’t see why you would spend all that money just to swing an electronic “needle”.

    Also, when you get into the realm of two or more GI275s as in the case of ADI+HSI or more, doesn’t it start to make sense to look really hard at a G3X or some other PFD? Garmin’s marketing of a whole panel full of individual GI275s makes no sense to me when you might save money by ripping it all out and going with a real PFD/MFD.

    That said, now that I have one GI275 in HSI, I could see adding a second for the ADI, but only because they added support for driving my Century II and the first 275 is a sunk cost...
     
  28. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    Just how much more do you think a GI-275 "CDI/MFD" costs vs. a standard mechanical CDI?

    The GI-275 sold in this configuration retails for $2,995.00. For comparison, Aircraft Spruce sells Garmin's GI-106B, a standard, no frills mechanical CDI for $2436.00.

    That's an apples-to-apples spread of two brand new in the box units. I'm aware used CDIs could be purchased for considerably less, but someday used GI-275s will be sold for less too. They just happen to be brand new at the moment. It's just timing.

    The primary reason for my interest is that I have a relatively cramped panel and the backup CDI doesn't do much for me most (virtually all) of the time. Yet, I feel very strongly about keeping it in the panel as a "standalone" backup connected to a separate nav radio. For a serious IFR traveling machine, which is what I consider my PA30B to be, this is simply required redundancy for safety. So the GI275 frees that 3.25" hole up to do so much more. A dedicated traffic display would be fantastic and probably be the "page" I use most often. Terrain would be great a lot of the time, too. But the video shared by WannaFly hints at many more possibilities. It just takes a mostly-useless backup "slot" and turns it into something quite useful, for not much more than the cost of a mechanical CDI.

    If the aircraft is a suitable candidate for it, sure. Garmin's AML for the G3X includes only single-engine piston airplanes. My airplane happens to have two engines installed.

    But I think you make a good point. The aircraft owner is going to have to make a decision to go with budget "bare bones" (which is mind-boggling considering that a pair of G5s are incredibly capable and redundant), "mid-tier" or all out panel surgery and upgrade with a new PFD/MFD combo. That's a huge delta and I'm not sure two or more GI-275s pencil out too well compared to the PFD/MFD option.

    Yes, now that you've started down the GI275 path I think you're committed. You touched on another point for me. I had the G5 ADI installed in 2016 when they were brand new. I spent "around" $4k installing that unit. That's my "sunk cost." I'd have to install two GI-275s now and find something to do with the (now) mostly superfluous G5 ADI. Moving it across the panel and plumbing it to work there is not inexpensive. Selling it isn't worth the trouble. Basically I lose that $4k plus have to spend the $8k which makes it a double upgrade in 4 years just because the tech changed.

    So given my preference for the G5 presentation anyway, it just makes sense to add a second G5 as an HSI and hope for the market to produce a replacement digital ADI to drive my autopilot... someday soon, I hope.
     
  29. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Line Up and Wait

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    Fair point. Granted it was used, but I just bought a KI209 for my #2 for $400, so that was kind of what I had in mind. If you are really buying it for the other capability (traffic) and only using it as CDI because that's what's convenient, then I can see where you're going.

    Gotcha, didn't connect about the twin situation. You'd have to go to a G500 which is the same issue, just more dollars.

    I don't think I'm really committed to GI275s per se, I wouldn't put in a G5 ADI because it wouldn't support my autopilot and I wouldn't go G3X, because I don't need to invest another $20k in my panel...

    What's your autopilot? They added support for a lot of autopilots recently, which changes the landscape for me. When I put my GI275 HSI, neither it nor the G5 would support the "attitude" input my Century IIB required (both would provide "heading" input in HSI mode, but not attitude for non-rate based autopilots from the ADI). As a result, I just left my analog Artificial Horizon where it was (because there was no way I could replace it with something electric and remove my vacuum pump or I would lose my autopilot). Now the GI275 ADI *will* provide that "attitude" input so I can move forward and rip out the vacuum pump. I don't really have any plans to do this right now, but if that artificial horizon were to take a dump, I definitely would.

    PS - have you flown behind a GI275? If you have not, I suspect your preference for the G5 screen would evaporate. If you have, well... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  30. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I would love to replace by 106B with the MFI version on 275 and use that real estate for something else other than just a backup needle... but i aint getting sucked into opening up my panel anytime soon. but man that MFD configuration is nice....very nice ..drool
     
  31. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    You can't mix and match G5 and GI275. It's one or the other.

    I have the Altimatic III which is a Century autopilot (attitude based.) The GI275 does support it. That single fact is why I strongly considered moving over to the GI275 not once, but twice, while waiting to update my panel to dual G5s.

    I'd do the same thing in your shoes.

    I've played with them on the ground. They're great devices -- the display crispness/brightness is fantastic and the featureset is clearly beyond that of the G5. If price were no object I'd take the GI275 hands down because of what they can do.

    But yes, without a doubt I prefer the G5 ADI mainly because it's a square and the airspeed/altitude tapes mimic the equipment I use at work. The HSI I could live with just because it's bigger and brighter and has more capability, but in terms of a scan, I do better with a pair of G5s than I do with GI 275s. Here's a fair example of the difference in terms of how my eyes see them:

    G5 VS GI275.jpg

    On the ADI: compare the tapes, the location of the altitude preselect and baro setting, and location of the lateral deviation (vertical not portrayed in this image, but it's off to the right.)

    On the HSI: I realize you're looking at a somewhat "maxed" presentation on the right but just glance at both and quickly try to interpet heading, course and winds. Look where the extra information (bug, winds -- not portrayed -- would not ride "on top of" the compass rose) is on the G5 vs. the GI-275. The whole idea is to interpret attitude, heading and course. That's what these instruments are for.

    I can tell you that with very few exceptions a professional flight crew will tend to prefer the presentation on the left. The eye candy on the right is a little over the top because Garmin is attempting to show many of the possible display options on the GI-275. So, of course you can "declutter" them. But if you're going to do that, why do you need them in the first place? The GI275s are impressive, but I'd never a configure an HSI to look like that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
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  32. CA182R

    CA182R Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hopefully, in a few weeks I will add a GI 275 MFD Standby to my panel in an empty hole. "Standby" for the ADAHRS so that it can be configured as AI with pitot-static tapes. I mainly want the unit for the MFD/CDI capabilities but I have a secondary objective of determining if I would ever replace my beloved G5 stack with a GI 275 combo.

    I think the only way to mix-and-match the G5 and GI 275 is to replace the G5 stack panel's TC with a GI 275 AI. This could be similar to replacing the TC with a solid-state RC Allen AI.
     
  33. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    I believe this may be possible. According to my avionics tech, there are other challenges associated with this including the fact that the GI275 and G5 can't share the same navigation source. Additionally, the GMU11 may be fed to the G5 HSI, and then via ARINC 424 connection "share" the magnetometer source with the GI275 -- but not the other way around (GI275 first.) It also goes without saying that you would not be looking at any sort of auto-reversion between the two units. But I have been presented with a myriad of semi-conflicting "facts" about integrations of this sort and was advised to hold back and wait for it to all shake out before considering any possible "unusual" combinations. So I shall.

    My main issue with the GI275 in this role is price. From my perspective that's a very expensive installation for the sole purpose of driving my legacy autopilot and eliminating my vaccum system. I am hoping for a simpler and more economical offering. I think the odds favor that happening.
     
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  34. CA182R

    CA182R Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm gonna put the GI 275 Standby MFD idea on hold for now until we see how things settle (or maybe save towards a G3X Touch upgrade). Also, the cost of the battery is worrisome, especially compared with the G5's.
     
  35. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I met my avionics guy today while I was at his airport for a oil change, he is offering a really good price and tells me can sell my 106B at a decent price too. I am very tempted .... but I don’t see much use of the MFD since I already have the 750 screen .... I am still tempted though