Getting logbook back

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by mtaylor, May 17, 2019 at 4:52 PM.

  1. mtaylor

    mtaylor Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Washington, Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mtaylor
    Three months ago I took my plane to Aviation Services at KSGU. At that time I needed an oil change. While it was at the FBO the weather was bad so I purchased a new propeller and Magnetos. The work was done and paid for two months ago. My problem is that I have not been able to get my logbooks back. I have made over several phone calls and visited the Aviation Services 5 times. I am unable to motivate the owner to give my my logbooks back. Is it legal to fly without having your logbooks in your possession? My annual is due at the end of the month. Can an annual be done without logbooks? Can the FAA help in any way?
     
  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    9,073
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    It’s not illegal, but you need to determine what’s going on.

    Have you paid for the services that have been done? Does the owner have a lien against the logbooks for some reason that you’re not aware of?

    Can’t think of any other reasons why someone wouldn’t return logbooks.
     
  3. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,547
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DaleB
    Why won't they give you the logs? Sounds like either they think you owe them money, or it's time to call in some help from someone who can exert some "corrective influence" on the owner. You know, like an attorney.

    There is no requirement to have the aircraft logbooks in your possession when you fly. You do, however, need to be able to produce them within a reasonable amount of time if requested by the FAA. And you'll pretty much certainly need the logbooks for the annual.
     
  4. mtaylor

    mtaylor Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Washington, Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mtaylor
    Yes I paid the entire amount 2 months ago when I picked up the plane. Just called to be sure there was nothing owed and the bookkeeper told me there was a zero balance on my account. I was hoping I wouldn't have to hire an attorney but my go see one Monday.
     
  5. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    The mechanic is probably busy like mine and hates doing paperwork... Go over to his shop and get them... How hard is this? Tell him you will wait while he writes the entries...
    Why couldn't you fly without logbooks? Do you keep them in the plane? Mine stay safe at home.
    Some airplanes don't have log :(
     
  6. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    This whole deal sounds dumb... Been there 5 times and you cant get the logs??? Take the damn things!
    Tell him you need them and your not leaving without them.
     
  7. mtaylor

    mtaylor Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Washington, Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mtaylor
    They have a keypad lock on the door that leads to the maintenance hanger. The owner just stays behind the door if he doesn't want to talk to me. I did manage to sneak into the maintenance hanger but could not find my logbooks. This really is a joke. I'm a new pilot that just purchased that plane last year. Guess I picked the wrong FBO. Someone suggest I post the phone number 435-674-1000
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 5:44 PM
  8. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    12,535
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canis Non Grata
    How do you verify the following and remain in compliance if you don’t get your logs back after maintenance?

    91.407 Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
    (a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—

    (1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under §43.7 of this chapter; and

    (2) The maintenance record entry required by §43.9 or §43.11, as applicable, of this chapter has been made.

    If you operate the aircraft and the entries haven’t been made, you are in violation. So in essence and contrary to the advice of others above, it could be considered illegal.
     
  9. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,379
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Motivate? Not enough specific info to make a specific reply. Something is missing here. Did you see/review the logbooks before you picked up and flew the aircraft?
     
  10. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,341
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    Unless you're built like a linebacker, take someone along as a witness. Just a friend coming along for the ride and lunch later, that sort of thing.
     
  11. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,341
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    Do you have any documentation, other than the phone call, that you've paid the bill? If so, not returning the logbooks could be considered theft.

    Option #1 - contact the airport manager:
    RICHARD STEHMEIER
    4508 S. AIRPORT PKWY #1
    ST GEORGE, UT 84790
    Phone (435) 627-4085

    If they are operating on airport grounds, they are subject to what's known as Minimum Standards.

    Option #2 - the airport is owned by the City of St George - call the Mayor's office.

    Option #3....not a lawyer, but you do know any local cops to make a friendly call along with you?

    Option #4 - call the local FSDO and file a complaint about the shop.
     
  12. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,546
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    This makes no sense. What motivation do they have to not give you the logbooks back? Sheer laziness?? I doubt that.
     
  13. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    9,073
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Seems extremely odd.

    What professional service owner hides behind the door and won’t let you in??
     
  14. mtaylor

    mtaylor Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Washington, Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mtaylor
    I do have the documentation that I have paid the bill. $17,000 is no longer in my account and I have the bank statement. Bookkeeper told me that I have a zero balance on my account. I have notified airport security about the matter. They suggest that maybe the FBO has lost the logbooks. Haven't called the mayor or airport manager yet or the FSDO. Wish it wasn't late Friday. Guess I'll do that first thing Monday morning.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 6:26 PM
  15. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,379
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Something still doesn't seem right with this. But if you did not review the logbooks and confirmed there were signed mx entries for the work performed, prior to your flight from there, file an ASRS report this weekend that you may have flown without an approval for return to service--just in case the shop owner wants to report you during this experience.

    Then contact the local police and make a report on the logbooks. Depending on the state it can be considered theft. The shop owner has zero authority to hold your property without permission. And the FAA has no jurisdiction in this type of event.

    Best of luck, but learn from this.
     
  16. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    Just go get the books... This isn't hard.
    If he does not have the books to give you ask where they are.
    He has probably been busy and hasn't had time to log the entries yet.
    Why would you have to call the Mayor and airport manager? Sounds like you want to make bad blood over a simple little problem.
    Now if he lost the logs that is a whole different story.
    Give me the mechanics number. I can call for you.. I'm not scared.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 7:22 PM
    Eric Stoltz likes this.
  17. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    Aviation Services 435-674-1000
    Want me to call and ask where your log books are????
     
  18. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,546
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
  19. mtaylor

    mtaylor Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Washington, Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mtaylor
    I am sending the following:
    Duane, this has become a joke! I paid my bill two months ago and verified that the bill has been paid with Rachael. It is too late today to do anything so starting tomorrow I plan on doing the following:

    Call Richard Stehmeinr and the City and file a complaint. You are on City property.

    Call the Salt Lake FSBO and file a complaint.

    File a complaint with the Police department and tell them you have stolen my logbooks.

    Post my experience on Yelp and Facebook.

    I have already posted you phone number online. You may be receiving some calls.

    I have already contacted airport security.

    It would be far easier to just give me my logbooks back.
    Please provide an explanation as to why you will not return my logbooks!
     
  20. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    Mark,
    Why you sending him a message and hiding behind the computer?
    Go over and ask him for your logs in person....
    Did you **** the guy off? Looks like you are about to.
    Did you get into it with him when he was doing the work? I believe something is being left out.
     
    KA550 likes this.
  21. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2013
    Messages:
    258
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doug Reid
    First of all, no one can hold your logbooks hostage. Even if you refused to pay their invoice, they cannot keep your logbooks. I know this for a fact because the same thing happened at our airport. The FAA will tell you the same thing. Go to the local sheriffs department or police department and get them to escort you to recover your property. If the mechanic has a dispute, he must go through small claims procedures.
     
  22. pdonahue

    pdonahue Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    52
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pdonahue
    I am not a lawyer but:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law)

    Mike Busch says you should never give your logbooks to a shop. You give them copies. They give you the appropriate sign-off on an adhesive label which you take and stick in your logbook which sits in a safe at home.
     
    danhagan and Eric Stoltz like this.
  23. mtaylor

    mtaylor Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Washington, Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mtaylor
    Nothing has been left out. I did go over and couldn't get the logbooks. Getting advise from this forum has been a very good idea.
     
  24. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    Or just have a trustworthy mechanic that you can trust your logs with.... Everyone I know takes the logs to the mechanic when work is done.
    maybe Mike Busch has a shady mechanic :)
     
    timwinters likes this.
  25. texasclouds

    texasclouds Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2018
    Messages:
    776
    Location:
    Bryan, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
  26. mtaylor

    mtaylor Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Washington, Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mtaylor
    Well the text message worked. Thank you everyone for your input. Heading to the airport now to get the logbooks.
    Thanks Again
     
  27. texasclouds

    texasclouds Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2018
    Messages:
    776
    Location:
    Bryan, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Did you make him an offer he can’t refuse?
     
  28. NavAir

    NavAir Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NavAir
    Maintenance logs are so vital. I have used my A&P/IA for 18 years, and trust him implicitly. But... stuff happens. For that reason, when we do maintenance or Annual inspections, I retain the logs. When we are done, he makes the appropriate entries, signs, and I pay him. And, as I said, I trust him.

    If I had to have work done away from home, I'd ask for the maintenance log documentation on a sticker, which I could place in the logs when I returned home. I do keep scanned copies of the logs, maintenance manuals, and the parts manual on a CD in the airplane.
     
  29. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    4,791
    Location:
    Fuquay Varina, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    If they're holding the logs, you have to go back to them for maintenance.

    Not like that's going to happen.

    Shudder - what if they lost them?
     
    benyflyguy likes this.
  30. AKBill

    AKBill Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,087
    Location:
    Juneau, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AKBill
    Is a scanned copy valid? Will the FAA accept the scanned copy at face value?
     
  31. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,341
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    Don’t know why not, if you can demonstrate no missing pages or such. I have my log books scanned, the originals stay in the safe deposit box and the shop has a copy of the CDs. They give me a sticker with the work done, along with the bill. When I have time, I get the books, add the stickers, burn a new set,of CDs. Actually, 3 sets. One for me, one for the shop and the 3rd stays in the safe deposit box with the log books.

    Yes, I’m paranoid.
     
  32. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    9,073
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Seriously it was that easy?

    This has to be one of the strangest series of events I’ve read about in awhile.

    Glad you got it resolved.
     
    PeterNSteinmetz and Eric Stoltz like this.
  33. AKBill

    AKBill Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,087
    Location:
    Juneau, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AKBill
    I bet it would take 8 hours or more to read, scan and document AD's and such for a 40+ year old plane. Once it's done upkeep would be easy.
     
  34. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,494
    Location:
    mississippi
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Simtech
    Next time this crap happens go to his shop and ask for your logs. If he says no or hides in the shop then right there in the office pull out your cell phone and call the cops and report them stolen. Case closed.
     
    Ryanb likes this.
  35. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,546
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Well he didn’t report he has them back physically yet...
     
  36. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    6,100
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    And....?
     
  37. mtaylor

    mtaylor Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Washington, Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mtaylor
    Here is the update. First the good news I GOT THE LOGBOOKS.

    Now what happen. He was suppose to leave the logbooks outside his door. He didn't leave the books outside. The door to the office was open so I went inside and no one was there. Didn't feel good about the situation so I called the police and notified them and also called airport operations. I called him told him about calling the police and he came outside. He was trying to get me to come inside, I didn't go inside. There was a verbal confrontation. I got the books and jumped into my truck and got the hell out of there.
     
    Eric Stoltz, murphey and benyflyguy like this.
  38. Mycroft17

    Mycroft17 Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Messages:
    22
    Location:
    KFMY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mycroft17
    So, what was his issue?
     
  39. jallen0

    jallen0 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    165
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jallen0
    Check to make sure all the pages are in there.
     
    nrpetersen likes this.
  40. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    9,073
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Sure you’re not pulling our leg?
     
    simtech likes this.