General Aviation

Just make an anonymous poll :)

It's not easy though. It depends on a lot of things. Making 200k living in Manhattan with 3 kids is not a lot. The same being single in Kansas is a ton of money. Someone might have inherited a house, while someone else might be paying rent.
There's a lot of factors, but you can set up a questionnaire including several of those in Survey Monkey or something like that. I mean, if you are really interested. I don't think people will have a problem responding if it's truly anonymous (and of course publish the results afterwards).
 
Same crap. :rolleyes:

Bike forums?

What is the best oil? Synthetic vs dead dino? Best tires? Best helmet? Does countersteering really work? Gear or no gear? Leather gear vs synthetic? Harley vs everyone. Cruiser vs sportbike. Is lanesplitting ok? Is filtering ok? Loud pipes save lives vs loud pipes suck, Japcrap vs Eurotrash....

blahblahblah....

Seen it all, I just go ride.
 
General aviation is as alive as you make it. Quit worrying about what/why/how everyone else is doing and go fly. I went up today with a couple of friends for 1.5 hours just to stare at the fall colors.

Wishing for the "good old days" is about as useful as ailerons on a boat. Tales of cheaper gas prices, busier patterns and greater employment do not create a single pound of lift or thrust.

Negativity is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You want to be miserable? You're on the right track. Me? I go flying...and when I fly I am VERY happy.

+1. My highschool buddy got me flying and taking lessons in 2006. I hadn't seen him in over 20 years. He built his own RV-8 and flys a ton. Probably on forums maybe ONCE a year. When he isn't flying his bird, he's with someone else flying theirs. He's responsible for at least 20 new pilots in the past 5 years. I've been flying non-pilot friends as well and finally have my FIRST friend starting lessons soon.

The FBO environment plays a huge part as well. Ours used to attract tons of guys on weekends and they'd hang out after flying or taking lessons. It was sold to a new owner, and now there isn't much interest there.

In short, if you're having a blast it'll be contagious soon. You don't always have to fly your own ride. I try not to fly solo so much anymore especially on trips and $100 hamburger runs.
 
Bike forums?

What is the best oil? Synthetic vs dead dino? Best tires? Best helmet? Does countersteering really work? Gear or no gear? Leather gear vs synthetic? Harley vs everyone. Cruiser vs sportbike. Is lanesplitting ok? Is filtering ok? Loud pipes save lives vs loud pipes suck, Japcrap vs Eurotrash....

blahblahblah....

Seen it all, I just go ride.

Well if you like to go slow, have bad brakes, and like the feeling of riding a sewing machine around all day, then a Harley is for you :D
 
Wow. I think I'm your twin. :eek: I just got my PPL this year and balanced the expense by selling a motorcycle. I'm hoping to squeeze some flying into the ongoing family budget but your experience mirrors mine. 80th percentile isn't enough to afford flying these days unless your entire family enjoys it as much as you do. Otherwise your $$$ would be better spent on nicer (no GA flying) vacations, dance lessons, etc... The budget will change when my daughter graduates college but by then will I still be able to pass the 3rd class medical????

For any hobby you have to look at fun/cost ratio. It takes a lot of fun to justify the cost of General Aviation. Of course, that's viewing GA as a fun hobby and not as a business tool. If I was using the plane as a money making tool and not a toy the equation would change.


You might very well be. I did sort of sell my motorcycle about 14 years ago. Actually, I sold it to the guy who pulled out in front of me's insurance company for salvage value. Five days after that, we found out that baby #1 was on the way, and that was that. I used the insurance money to buy the materials to finish my basement.

I did fly hang gliders for five years as well. They're great fun, but the hang gliding hill is more than two hours away and the conditions aren't good all that much of the time, so I found myself not flying enough to remain comfortable, so I stopped. If you know anyone that's hot to fly but can't afford power flying, hang gliding is a great way to go.

Sometimes I start daydreaming about getting a two seater after my daughters are away at school, but then I have to remind myself that my wife has no fondness for airplanes, and that's the end of that. Maybe someday I can take up sailplane flying, the club's a little closer than the HG site. We'll see.
 
And quite honestly, if you are really in this for the sport of it, hang gliding, paragliding, or sailplaning are more affordable, and for most people, more fun.

That is what I do. I've flown all the proper GA stuff mostly boring, more expensive then the experience is worth. When the weather is good I fly my paragliders when the weather sucks I'm a good husband and parent.:lol:
 
As far as money goes, I am a single father with a mortgage to pay...I am an IT Manager for a popular bank here in Omaha. I make decent money but nothing outrageous, I mean I am buying a $30,000 plane with a mid-time engine (1977 Piper Warrior II) for training and to build hours in not like I am getting one of those fancy Cirrus SR22's (doctor killers as a CFI once called them).

I set money aside for training and when I do make this purchase happen each time I fly I will put money away for maintenance.
 
I can't say it is the price of fuel. If you look at the average cost of AVGAS over the past 70 years. its been relatively stable. 80 octane in 1939 was 25 cents a gallon. Plug that into your handy dandy inflation calculator, and that spits out $4.21. Airnav puts the average price of 100LL at $5.95. Still spendy, but with careful shopping, manageable, and it could be a transient fluctuation. When I bought my airplane in 2010, fuel was in the $4.50 range.

On the other hand, look up the list price on a a C172 in 1970 and compare that with today's model, and what the CPI says it should cost. Same with parts.

I don't begrudge CFIs and A&Ps the money they make. Is anyone going to tell me with a straight face that the $15/hr that CFIs made in 1987 has the same purchasing power now? They need to be making about $30/hr just to break par. Besides, I never saw people caterwaul about what their tennis pro or personal trainer makes.

Beyond that, I'd say there has been an overall change in purchasing patterns Growing up in late 70's & early 80's, most middle America, even those on the upper ends, lived modest lifestyles. No 5 bedroom 5 bath McMansions with everyone driving a car. Dad got the 3 year old K car, and Mom made due with the station wagon. Kids shared bedrooms. After school activities? Try homework and the great outdoors (minus the helmets). If you did play little league, it was a $10 fee for the season because people volunteered their time.

TV in every room? Nope. Cable was in its infancy, and even if you had it, bills rarely exceeded $20...after all, who the heck PAYS for TV? Same goes for water, and $3 for a cup of coffee? Hah! Eating out was a special treat, not the way to feed the family.

Along the way, management got people to work more for less. Paid health insurance and a reasonable retirement plan (defined benefit) was part and parcel of every middle American job. Now you have people funding both out of their own pocket.

Crafty advertising made people spend more of what they did make. You need that 2nd car. You need to have your kids in every activity under the sun, AND pay $100 for the latest shoes. EVERYONE needs a cell phone, tablet and laptop. Your kid is a failure unless he or she has $200k in student debt. And since when do you pull your kids of of school to go on vacation? Vacation was what summer was for. I had to be bleeding out of my eyes, ears and nose to even get a day off sick.

It's no wonder both parents have to work. No time for the watch and chain.

Richman

PS. I not some grouchy old boomer guy. I'm a Gen Xer. This was NOT that long ago.
 
JOBS! Years back people around here worked at G.M. 10,000 people! It's gone! Beth steel had 20,000 employees. It's GONE! Many more local manuf. company's are simply gone. Gas was a buck a gallon. A nice Cessna 180 was 30 grand, an aeronca champ , like new , 3 grand. The local FBO sold piper and mooney and LOTS of people bought them. Aero commanders, barons etc. were prevalent. It was a real fun time in aviation, lots of people around airports. It's all changed. The jobs are in china and it's a long commute. Over there, they live in dormitories of 7000 and make 40 dollars a month. Tough to buy or fly on that type income. I was buying amoco high test in jerry cans to pour in my Stearman. 1.50 a gallon. Today all the politicians talk about is jobs! We gave em all away, long ago. The Chinese even make our military uniforms! As pogo said, " we have met the enemy....and it is US!" Kids can't even get near a plane. The small airports are all locked up due to typical overreaction. We do however, have a brand new 800 million dollar embassy in Iraq you may want to visit. People were plenty busy back then ! They had decent jobs, raised family's, and I don't ever recall a child or a teacher being gunned down in cold blood. It's all changed and it's not good! Check out the price of a new Cessna sky catcher! NO wonder airports are empty!
Your post packs even more punch when you see that GA is starting to take off in China, of all places. Jobs lost here...jobs gained there... I'm seeing a pattern here.
 
Wow. I think I'm your twin. :eek: I just got my PPL this year and balanced the expense by selling a motorcycle. I'm hoping to squeeze some flying into the ongoing family budget but your experience mirrors mine. 80th percentile isn't enough to afford flying these days unless your entire family enjoys it as much as you do.

Ditto. I'm fairly far along in my training, but going into it I had the mindset that the fun would be in the journey, not the destination. If I got 30 hours in and decided to quit, as long as I enjoyed the life experience to that point I wouldn't consider it a waste. I waited to start until I had the discretionary money to spend - sure we could have used it in other ways, and to an extent the rest of the family had to make some sacrifices to make it possible. However, I think that my wife will enjoy flying as well, and from time to time I try to bring her along to a meetup/etc and pay for her to go on a discovery flight/etc so that she isn't entirely left out.

I'm enjoying the experience of everything, but I still end up wondering from time to time if it is a worthwhile investment. I keep trying to look at it the way I'd look at dining out or going on a vacation - you don't do this stuff with the goal of having something to show for it, but for the experience. Down the road if my financial situation changes I'd need to re-consider things, but at the moment I'm between the raising kids phase and the retirement crunch, so I might as well get the experience in.

Once I have my license I'm sure my wife and I will go flying around/etc, and we'll end up spending $350 on trips that could cost us $50, but that's OK as long as we get what we want out of it.

For me it has also been a bit of a personal journey as well. Honestly, I was probably white-knuckled on my discovery flight. I flew on a flight simulator for the first time when I was in elementary school (on a C64 I think) and have been flying them somewhat regularly ever since. At the same time, I've always tended to have a firm grip on the armrest during landing even in a 747, and that was nothing compared to my discovery flight in a 172. Even 30 hours in I had a flight the other week with crosswinds at ~8G15 that I ended up calling short - it was good practice but the anxiety level was pretty high. It was a good experience all the same as I was able to stay in control of things for the most part - certainly not my nicest approaches but for the most part I had positive control of the plane. I probably won't be soloing in those conditions for a while longer, but I'm getting there. For me part of this is about reconciling my enjoyment of the simulation of flying with my anxiety about sharing control of a plane with the winds and other unseen influences on the movement of the surrounding air. Sure, for what it costs to fly around in a 1974 172M I could be flying a pretty decent simulation of a business jet in my basement, but there is something nice about actually going somewhere in the process.

Cost is still likely to be the limiting factor to this as a hobby - more than any other hobby I have aviation just burns through the cash. Not a lot of people have that kind of disposable income lying around - it is a bit of a stretch for me (fairly well-along in an IT career), and it certainly doesn't hurt that I have an understanding wife who enjoys flying (and is far more comfortable with it).

So who knows - maybe I will end up just building a better cockpit with nicer avionics in my basement on a lower budget all the same. However, I think my life and my family's will have been richer for the experience of general aviation, and that's really my goal.
 
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