General Aviation

I had this very conversation in the flight deck DEN-YYZ at work the other night...I think the younger generation is just not as turned on by flying like past generations where. That paired with the cost and time it takes is really going against the grain to them ..not to mention (the lack) of those who are seeking a professional career. I have watched a rather successful training/rental market slowly start drying up around LNK...many schools are a far cry from their former selves. I for one in the training business am not exactly bullish right now with the direction of GA .


When Cessna says the Skycather "has no future" that kind of helps folks read between the lines a little.
 
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I'm guessing people argue about motorbike rules too. One thing is that they vary by state so there are 50 sets of rules. I can see people arguing about helmets and lane-splitting, just off the top of my head. But then I'll admit I've never been on a motorbike forum and am not curious enough to look today.

I'm on a few sport bike forums......not sure I've EVER seen a thread about the rules. There are lots of threads like "Is Lane splitting safe?" But most don't care about legality.
 
Rules. It is all about the rules. Those that are inclined to read and follow them to a 'T' will never understand normal men's aversion to them.
What rules do the motorbike guys have to deal with? Speeding(same as everyone else) and getting pinged for loud pipes. Pretty much nothing compared to GA.

Motorbikes are just as fun, too.
 
When Cessna says the Skycather "has no future" that kind of helps folks read between the lines a little.
While I agree with what you said, the Skycatcher having no future is Cessna's problem, not GA's. In fact, I think the Skycatcher would tend to contribute to the problem. Seriously... an airplane and a license that restricted in capability, for over $150K -- and then a few more grand to get a license to fly it? It makes kayaks look pretty good as a leisure time activity, and a Harley or Gold Wing (or a new 'Vette, for that matter) look pretty good for transportation. Van's is selling the S-LSA RV-12 for about 1/3 less money and having no trouble at all finding buyers.

I do think that the people who have the time and money for aviation increasingly lack the desire to devote the time necessary to learn to fly, and they're not looking for a hobby that is that highly regulated. If you're selling mountain bikes, kayaks, motorcycles, boats or classic cars, you're going to have plenty of customers. Flight schools... well, not so much. And I don't think this is just the US, either. If you mention that you have a pilot's license to the average German, they'll look at you like you just stepped out of a spaceship (or mental ward).
 
I'm on a few sport bike forums......not sure I've EVER seen a thread about the rules. There are lots of threads like "Is Lane splitting safe?" But most don't care about legality.
That's because if I get pulled over for speeding or lane splitting, or even if I'm the cause of an accident, I get a ticket, pay the fine and go on with my life and riding, no big deal. It's not like I could get my driver's license revoked for failing to signal a turn.

Bikers have at least their fair share of endless stupid topics to debate, though! :)
 
I'm on a few sport bike forums......not sure I've EVER seen a thread about the rules. There are lots of threads like "Is Lane splitting safe?" But most don't care about legality.
OK. But I've also found that in real life (not that the internet isn't real life :D), pilots don't usually sit around and discuss rules either.

So maybe the thing is to get off the internet and find some pilots to socialize with, even if you find them on the internet. I'll admit, that can be hard, especially for new people or those who are not natural extroverts. I was lucky when I was new in that I belonged to a flying club and was encouraged to participate.
 
Van's is selling the S-LSA RV-12 for about 1/3 less money and having no trouble at all finding buyers.

Well, lets not get carried away. I have only heard of one delivery. I'm not even sure if they have sold the first ten yet. Last I heard they were only committed to ten planes as a trial. They seem to really lack enthusiasm for the whole factory build program. Below is the link to Van's site. I encourage everyone to go there and find as much info about the factory build RV-12 as they can. How much? What avionics? What colors? What options? Where can I buy one? You know, basic buyer stuff.

http://vansaircraft.com/

I suspect that somebody talked Van into trying it, but that he really, really, doesn't want to do it, so they're setting up for the fail. The kits are selling well though I imagine.
 
It's expensive. Not just the cost of gas, but $85/hour shop rates, being required to only use certified parts, being very limited on what work you can do on your certified plane, and this fad of $120,000 LSAs with full glass panels that rival bizjets of a short generation ago.

Experimental is the way to go. More bang for the buck and flexibility.
 
Why is GA slow?

1 Video games and sedentary life styles

2 Over regulation, more rules then anyone could possibly know, your probably violating one right now

3 Sue happy p@ussies, these low lifes will mess up and sue other people for their mistakes, they help raise the prices of new aircraft as making aircraft more sue proof is expensive
4 inflated taxes and fuel prices, just watch your tax and fuel bills after we invade the next 2 or 3 random countries.


So to sum it up, blame it on the puss1es, fat people and gov't.
 
:no:

If you were remotely interested in aviation the EAA chapters are where to start. Many non flying members. I can highly recommend chapter 80. They are an active, involved group.

I own a certified airplane (Warrior) and I'm a member of our local chapter (105). I fly Young Eagles flights all the time, am involved in the chapter, even serve on the board for the chapter. There are lots of opportunities to advance GA to the future generations (and current ones) in EAA for sure. Check it out - What's the worse that can happen?
 
I can see that being true, but what kinds of inane arguments show up on motorbike forums or forums for other possible activities?

Same crap.

I was in boating/yachting. On the boat forums arguments over regulations and how everyone is in violation, if you have a (brand of boat) it's garbage and you are endangering your life, maintenance nightmares, etc, etc......

Recently I bought a 70 series Toyota Landcruiser, so naturally I got on the Internet to do some research. On the 4x4 forum for Landcruisers I found out by an "expert" in Canada my model is a POS and "no one in their right mind should even consider that model". Same guy goes into keyboard Tourette's every time one is mentioned. Funny thing is the guys in Australia and NZ love that model. Endless debates.:nonod:

My point is if you let the Internet be the judge of what you would like to pursue then after reading all the garbage you would never leave the house. :rolleyes:
 
General aviation is as alive as you make it. Quit worrying about what/why/how everyone else is doing and go fly. I went up today with a couple of friends for 1.5 hours just to stare at the fall colors.

Wishing for the "good old days" is about as useful as ailerons on a boat. Tales of cheaper gas prices, busier patterns and greater employment do not create a single pound of lift or thrust.

Negativity is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You want to be miserable? You're on the right track. Me? I go flying...and when I fly I am VERY happy.
 
EAA in general is also for people who restore and/or fly antique and classic planes, warbirds, and those who just have an interest in aviation. Our chapter has a mix of builders, certified A/C owners, and restorers along with some who are just interested or trying to decide if they're going to build or not. And yes, most of the builders do show up for the meetings, it's a good way to escape for some conversation with someone else who will understand the insanity. Our current chapter president is building a fiberglass canard - I think it's a Velocity. Mostly, though, it's just a bunch of pilots talking about pilot stuff. There's even some socializing afterward, a few of the members have hangars at Millard. Come on over on the 11th and check us out.

I will see if I can't come on the 11th then. :)
 
Aviation is reverting to a rich mans game. Cost is now a huge barrier to entry.

Boomers are passing away with a large part of GA going with them. I hang out and chat with the guys at a small airport, the old bold pilots are passing away every week it seems like. Almost none of the crowd from ten years ago is around now. I'm a boomer also and $6 a gallon and $120 an hour has parked my 3rd class medical on the sidelines. I COULD fly but it's a lot cheaper to run my Sport Touring cycle around the country, and I have plenty of ATP rated retired pilots for company. A ton of pilots are on Goldwings and hogs today.......not the same high as flying, but bikes have their moments.
 
Aviation is reverting to a rich mans game. Cost is now a huge barrier to entry.

Boomers are passing away with a large part of GA going with them. I hang out and chat with the guys at a small airport, the old bold pilots are passing away every week it seems like. Almost none of the crowd from ten years ago is around now. I'm a boomer also and $6 a gallon and $120 an hour has parked my 3rd class medical on the sidelines. I COULD fly but it's a lot cheaper to run my Sport Touring cycle around the country, and I have plenty of ATP rated retired pilots for company. A ton of pilots are on Goldwings and hogs today.......not the same high as flying, but bikes have their moments.

No kidding - I took my Concours 14 to a friends wedding in Michigan - I spent about $100 on gas and an extra $200 on hotel rooms that I wouldnt have had to if I flew - but $300 would have paid for about half of one way of the trip in the Mooney. Not to mention I probably had more fun.
 
There are ZERO fresh faced kids in my three areas of interest.......GA flying, large fast sport touring bikes, and radio control planes. In my group you're a "youngster" if you're under 50. Except for motorcycles, I honestly don't know how the other two segments aren't going to shrink into micro niche groups. There is no way we are replacing the ones we're losing IMO. Admittedly I'm not into the Young Eagles, CAP, or EAA groups where the young ones might be hanging out.......I'm just the average guy on the street.
 
There are ZERO fresh faced kids in my three areas of interest.......GA flying, large fast sport touring bikes, and radio control planes. In my group you're a "youngster" if you're under 50. Except for motorcycles, I honestly don't know how the other two segments aren't going to shrink into micro niche groups. There is no way we are replacing the ones we're losing IMO. Admittedly I'm not into the Young Eagles, CAP, or EAA groups where the young ones might be hanging out.......I'm just the average guy on the street.

Well I'm 19 years old and Jesse is 26 and we both ride big fast sport touring motorcycles.
 
Ironically I got rid of my 2011 Ninja ZX6r for the plane I am working toward purchasing...
 
There are ZERO fresh faced kids in my three areas of interest.......GA flying, large fast sport touring bikes, and radio control planes. In my group you're a "youngster" if you're under 50. Except for motorcycles, I honestly don't know how the other two segments aren't going to shrink into micro niche groups. There is no way we are replacing the ones we're losing IMO. Admittedly I'm not into the Young Eagles, CAP, or EAA groups where the young ones might be hanging out.......I'm just the average guy on the street.

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Same crap.

I was in boating/yachting. On the boat forums arguments over regulations and how everyone is in violation, if you have a (brand of boat) it's garbage and you are endangering your life, maintenance nightmares, etc, etc......

Recently I bought a 70 series Toyota Landcruiser, so naturally I got on the Internet to do some research. On the 4x4 forum for Landcruisers I found out by an "expert" in Canada my model is a POS and "no one in their right mind should even consider that model". Same guy goes into keyboard Tourette's every time one is mentioned. Funny thing is the guys in Australia and NZ love that model. Endless debates.:nonod:

My point is if you let the Internet be the judge of what you would like to pursue then after reading all the garbage you would never leave the house. :rolleyes:

I had a 70 series landcruiser (no seriously, I did) 8MPG (downhill) and had as much power as a Honda Civic. HUGE POS. I wouldn't wish one of those on my worst enemy. Though a guy who doesn't mind having a Cessna 337 for a personal plane might enjoy one. :D
 
I had a 70 series landcruiser (no seriously, I did) 8MPG (downhill) and had as much power as a Honda Civic. HUGE POS. I wouldn't wish one of those on my worst enemy. Though a guy who doesn't mind having a Cessna 337 for a personal plane might enjoy one. :D

Yea, the other forums also have their fair share of "I walked by and looked at one, now I can tell you how they drive, how reliable they are and all of the problems associated with them are"....... :rolleyes2:

:D
 
I owned several bikes. A BMW, a honda and finally a Kawasaki ZL 1000 . The 1000 was not only a great looking bike but had a drive shaft and 100 hp. Great touring bike! Best I ever owned but am far from an expert on bikes. Buy one if you can find a nice one.
 
Same general experience here. Hanging around the airport with (most) 50 and 60 somethings bores the hell out of me. Obviously there are exceptions. Many of them hang out here. The average pilot can't figure out how to operate a mouse. You might see why we have little in common. :)



I don't keep it on the DL. Someone has to be a gun- totin', NRA Life Member, Ham Radio, pilot guy. If someone doesn't like it and would rather spend their weekends dragging the drooling offspring through the mall and stuffing them in the electric door'd minivan, after cramming their pie hole at Cheesecake Factory while acting like they're peace loving hippies because they have a Coexist bumper sticker and green because the minivan is a hybrid, more power to 'em. Yawn. That ain't much of a life.



Disagree. See above minivan. They don't care how it operates, nor do they want to. If it drove their fat asses home while they watched Spongebob in the back they'd be ecstatic. There's no flying yourself in your higher tech version. Most of the country couldn't get themselves home from said mall if you handed them the keys to a stick shift.

Well, let's see where I fit in here...

61, so I'm one of those boring 50 - 60 year olds. :D

Got you beat on the NRA, however. Patron Member. :D:D

Extra class ham (N6TPT). :D

And, of course, a pilot. :D:D:D

You won't find a "coexist" bumper sticker on my car, but there are a bunch of them around here. I haven't owned a stick shift car in a number of years (hey, it takes three hands to drive one with one hand on the wheel, the ham radio mike in the other, and how was I going to shift gears again?), but my Jeep does fine with an automatic and the 6 speed automatic in my new Ford Escape is really nice. My son drives a Mustang with a stick. I will admit that my daughter never learned on one. My wife, on the other hand, has no trouble with one at all.

Sorry I missed you when I was in Denver in August. We had a good lunch.
 
Sorry I missed you when I was in Denver in August. We had a good lunch.
I think the three of us that were there were in that boring 50-60 age group. :D

I know how to use a mouse, though. Although I've moved on to trackpads. :goofy:
 
Well, lets not get carried away. I have only heard of one delivery. I'm not even sure if they have sold the first ten yet. Last I heard they were only committed to ten planes as a trial. They seem to really lack enthusiasm for the whole factory build program. Below is the link to Van's site. I encourage everyone to go there and find as much info about the factory build RV-12 as they can. How much? What avionics? What colors? What options? Where can I buy one? You know, basic buyer stuff.

http://vansaircraft.com/

I suspect that somebody talked Van into trying it, but that he really, really, doesn't want to do it, so they're setting up for the fail. The kits are selling well though I imagine.

I saw one (RV-12) at our local 30 plane flyin' in middle of no where eastern NC. Looked good to me.
 
Id like to know some pricing on the 12 been waiting a while for their email with pricing
 
Sometimes I do get the feeling that GA is a dying hobby, but I get lifted up by the fact that there are no available hangars at my field and we recently finished building an entire new row of them. Also, attendance at Oshkosh was over 500,000 this year, I believe, so I think there are still positive vibes to be found in GA.
 
OK. But I've also found that in real life (not that the internet isn't real life :D), pilots don't usually sit around and discuss rules either.

So maybe the thing is to get off the internet and find some pilots to socialize with, even if you find them on the internet. I'll admit, that can be hard, especially for new people or those who are not natural extroverts. I was lucky when I was new in that I belonged to a flying club and was encouraged to participate.

Heh, usually they sit around and either tell tall tales about their aviation exploits, or whine about the high price of avgas. We could institute new "rules" here to keep the topics as boring as the ones at the airport. LOL!
 
I'm an ex pilot, for a number of reasons, but the main one was that I simply lost interest. I thought that learning to fly was very interesting, but once I was licensed I rather quickly ran out of things to do with it. I had nowhere to go, and just got bored with flying locally,and my attentions drifted off to other things, but maybe that's just me. I suspect not, since so many pilots stop flying after getting their license.

At this point, since I have a family to support, there's no money in the budget for it anyway. Could we rearrange things so that I could? Hmm let me ask all all the affected parties: Honey, you don't mind giving up your kitchen remodel so we can buy a half share in a 35 year old airplane, do you? And girls, you don't really mind giving up your dance company so Dad can fly that airplane 80 or so hours a year, do you? After all, we can probably take it to the beach once a year, provided that the weather's OK. Yes, I know it's cramped and noisy and we can't take much luggage, plus it scares the crap out of your mom, but it will be fun, right? OK, we'll take a vote, so what do you say? Anyone care to guess the outcome of that vote?

I've been involved in a number of activities, and in all of them, many of the participants all think the reason "their" activity isn't more popular is because it isn't promoted properly. So far, it's never been the case. Private aviation has a number of challenges. First off, it's crazy expensive. I'm at a very senior level in IT, our household income is around the 80th percentile and we live in a moderate cost of living area, and it would take some major rearranging and cutting back for me to fly even 50 rental hours a year, and it's not fair to everyone else to do that. Second issue is that most people aren't all that much for the sensation of flying in a light airplane, they find it dull. One of my hang gliding friends described it as being like driving down a straight road in your car at 35 mph.

Let me keep going. The next problem is that the average GA plane has limited transportation utility. If the trip's less than 200 miles, better to drive, and more than 500, better to fly commercially. Depending on where you live, an instrument rating may be needed to get decent dispatch reliability. Also consider how many families have two earners. If the lady of the house is working half the hours, you can be certain she's going to want to have half the input on where the money's spent, and considering that far fewer women are interested in aviation than are men, there's another point of contention.

As far as that contention that Americans are lazy, let me point you to two sites: http://www.runningusa.org/state-of-sport-2013-part-III?returnTo=annual-reports
http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/demographics.aspx

Look at the levels of participation in these two sports. Both are booming. The trend now is towards human powered or natural powered activities. When I was a kid, a dirt bike was a motorcycle, now it's a bicycle. Every weekend when the weather's decent I see dozens of road cyclists, and every day the weather's not horrible, I see runners.

GA's not dying, but it is shrinking. Back when I was flying, I think there were a lot of guys taking up flying lessons, and either not finishing them or finishing them and quitting shortly thereafter, like I did. Now, I think they're just skipping the starting part, and why shouldn't they? Unless you really like the sensation of being aloft, you've got to have a damn stout family income to get any utility out of the thing. And quite honestly, if you are really in this for the sport of it, hang gliding, paragliding, or sailplaning are more affordable, and for most people, more fun.
 
Wow. I think I'm your twin. :eek: I just got my PPL this year and balanced the expense by selling a motorcycle. I'm hoping to squeeze some flying into the ongoing family budget but your experience mirrors mine. 80th percentile isn't enough to afford flying these days unless your entire family enjoys it as much as you do. Otherwise your $$$ would be better spent on nicer (no GA flying) vacations, dance lessons, etc... The budget will change when my daughter graduates college but by then will I still be able to pass the 3rd class medical????

For any hobby you have to look at fun/cost ratio. It takes a lot of fun to justify the cost of General Aviation. Of course, that's viewing GA as a fun hobby and not as a business tool. If I was using the plane as a money making tool and not a toy the equation would change.


I'm an ex pilot, for a number of reasons, but the main one was that I simply lost interest. I thought that learning to fly was very interesting, but once I was licensed I rather quickly ran out of things to do with it. I had nowhere to go, and just got bored with flying locally,and my attentions drifted off to other things, but maybe that's just me. I suspect not, since so many pilots stop flying after getting their license.

At this point, since I have a family to support, there's no money in the budget for it anyway. Could we rearrange things so that I could? Hmm let me ask all all the affected parties: Honey, you don't mind giving up your kitchen remodel so we can buy a half share in a 35 year old airplane, do you? And girls, you don't really mind giving up your dance company so Dad can fly that airplane 80 or so hours a year, do you? After all, we can probably take it to the beach once a year, provided that the weather's OK. Yes, I know it's cramped and noisy and we can't take much luggage, plus it scares the crap out of your mom, but it will be fun, right? OK, we'll take a vote, so what do you say? Anyone care to guess the outcome of that vote?

I've been involved in a number of activities, and in all of them, many of the participants all think the reason "their" activity isn't more popular is because it isn't promoted properly. So far, it's never been the case. Private aviation has a number of challenges. First off, it's crazy expensive. I'm at a very senior level in IT, our household income is around the 80th percentile and we live in a moderate cost of living area, and it would take some major rearranging and cutting back for me to fly even 50 rental hours a year, and it's not fair to everyone else to do that. Second issue is that most people aren't all that much for the sensation of flying in a light airplane, they find it dull. One of my hang gliding friends described it as being like driving down a straight road in your car at 35 mph.

Let me keep going. The next problem is that the average GA plane has limited transportation utility. If the trip's less than 200 miles, better to drive, and more than 500, better to fly commercially. Depending on where you live, an instrument rating may be needed to get decent dispatch reliability. Also consider how many families have two earners. If the lady of the house is working half the hours, you can be certain she's going to want to have half the input on where the money's spent, and considering that far fewer women are interested in aviation than are men, there's another point of contention.

As far as that contention that Americans are lazy, let me point you to two sites: http://www.runningusa.org/state-of-sport-2013-part-III?returnTo=annual-reports
http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/demographics.aspx

Look at the levels of participation in these two sports. Both are booming. The trend now is towards human powered or natural powered activities. When I was a kid, a dirt bike was a motorcycle, now it's a bicycle. Every weekend when the weather's decent I see dozens of road cyclists, and every day the weather's not horrible, I see runners.

GA's not dying, but it is shrinking. Back when I was flying, I think there were a lot of guys taking up flying lessons, and either not finishing them or finishing them and quitting shortly thereafter, like I did. Now, I think they're just skipping the starting part, and why shouldn't they? Unless you really like the sensation of being aloft, you've got to have a damn stout family income to get any utility out of the thing. And quite honestly, if you are really in this for the sport of it, hang gliding, paragliding, or sailplaning are more affordable, and for most people, more fun.
 
When talking about the cost of flying and difficulties involved it makes me wonder sometimes just how much money guys on this forum are bringing in. Though it is very personal info I wonder just how many of the guys on this forum are over the 150,000 dollar mark, single, in lucrative "IT" careers, etc............ Maybe even over the 200,000 mark?
 
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