General Aviation

jetedrick

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Omaha, NE
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JT
Why is general aviation so dead these days? It seems that people aren't as interested as they once were; I don't have any friends local that participate in any general aviation activities however I am too busy working on getting my training done as well.

I rarely hear much about general aviation in my travels outside of training...seems like a dead hobby that I enjoy doing very much.

Perhaps it is just Omaha, NE. :)
 
There are quite a few threads on this very subject.
 
Why is general aviation so dead these days? It seems that people aren't as interested as they once were; I don't have any friends local that participate in any general aviation activities however I am too busy working on getting my training done as well.

I rarely hear much about general aviation in my travels outside of training...seems like a dead hobby that I enjoy doing very much.

Perhaps it is just Omaha, NE. :)


I live at the Lincoln Airport. Always doing something. :D
 
Yeah I am working on purchasing a Warrior II to complete my training, once that purchase goes through I am going to be at the airport all the time...

Also sorry I didn't search on the subject, just a thought as I was reading. My apologies.
 
GA has been dead(ish) for a long time. If popularity is your angle understand you are not going to get any social bonus points for being a pilot. None, zero, zip. Doesn't matter if you like flying go fly and have fun. Long term there is a net loss of flyable airplanes and I doubt new pilots are being made at replacement levels(or soon won't be.) That doesn't change today so enjoy it. YOLO(for all the responsible future time oriented folks here:lol:)
 
Yeah I am working on purchasing a Warrior II to complete my training, once that purchase goes through I am going to be at the airport all the time...

Also sorry I didn't search on the subject, just a thought as I was reading. My apologies.


Which one are you flying out of? Council Bluffs is always burning up my headphones when I'm out!
 
I love being in the air...that is why I am purchasing a plane now. I am pre-solo (was working on soloing right before the plane purchase) and eager to get up again. It has been a few weeks while I wrap up the purchase and the annual gets completed on the plane. I can't wait to get back to training again...
 
Which one are you flying out of? Council Bluffs is always burning up my headphones when I'm out!

I fly out of Council Bluffs...there are usually a few people in training while I am there but it seems so dead at the airport at times.
 
I fly out of Council Bluffs...there are usually a few people in training while I am there but it seems so dead at the airport at times.


Its very sporadic, everywhere. On the beautuful weeknights its just dead. I assume because most people are just getting off work then feeding their kids and such.
 
Hey, enjoyed the book by the way...

I have kids as well but when I was training I was flying two to three times a week. I want to have my license before June of 2014 and start working on instrument once I build up some hours.

I am looking for more local people to talk flying to...and that isn't as easy as it seems. Most of the people that I do know are a touch older than me and aren't very social.
 
Hey, enjoyed the book by the way...

I have kids as well but when I was training I was flying two to three times a week. I want to have my license before June of 2014 and start working on instrument once I build up some hours.

I am looking for more local people to talk flying to...and that isn't as easy as it seems. Most of the people that I do know are a touch older than me and aren't very social.


See PM
 
Not sure "Flying is dead" but it's rare. I'm going on interviews and my prior boss thought it was really cool that I was a pilot. She saw the benefits of it (communication and organization improved alot after training started) I found saying I'm a pilot to people I'm interviewing with they look and say "wow that must be expensive" and then find I don't get chosen for the job. My husband says he figures the hiring manager thinks I'd move on from them as soon as I could to chase money. So now I'm not even saying that in my interviews. GA is very misunderstood. Yes training is expensive but flying for a weekend is just as expensive as any other hobby.
 
I think a lot of the perception of no activity at the airport is because people in general are busier than we used to be and we go out to the airport in a hurry, get the plane out as quick as we can, and get going. Reverse when we get back. A lot of us just don't have the time to just hang around the airport like we used to.
 
Now that I am retired a lot of my social life revolves around flying,have made friends with a lot of pilots. Even joined an eaa chapter,also a member of a social flying club .
 
At the gatherings, or fly-ins or whatever I attend I'm often the youngest pilot there. And I'm 42. The days when 15 year old boys (or girls) would wash planes for free just to get a free ride seem to be well over. I don't see any young people hanging around the airport, just old geezers.

As observed, there is no benefit to saying you fly or that you're an aircraft owner. As soon as anything even remotely financial comes up in conversation, you can bet the begrudging "so why don't you sell your plane then?" comes out like clockwork. Nobody is impressed and most of them just glaze over and walk away should the topic arise. They think you're a destroyer of environments at best, or killer of babies at worst. You might as well have told them you're a board member of the NRA. So I never mention I fly or that I have an airplane if I can avoid it. Sometimes people around me, friends, mention it, and then I'll have to acknowledge it, but I try to keep it on the DL.

That said, I do think as a futurist that aviation will get back to it's glory days and even beyond in time. It's inevitable. All we need is critical mass and that critical mass will be technology. Technology will eventually make flying both cheaper and safer. If there were as many people into flying as there were people into cars, then we wouldn't witness what we're seeing today. Airports would be built, not demolished. We will be traveling in electric flying cars/airplanes/hovvercrafts in time.
 
JOBS! Years back people around here worked at G.M. 10,000 people! It's gone! Beth steel had 20,000 employees. It's GONE! Many more local manuf. company's are simply gone. Gas was a buck a gallon. A nice Cessna 180 was 30 grand, an aeronca champ , like new , 3 grand. The local FBO sold piper and mooney and LOTS of people bought them. Aero commanders, barons etc. were prevalent. It was a real fun time in aviation, lots of people around airports. It's all changed. The jobs are in china and it's a long commute. Over there, they live in dormitories of 7000 and make 40 dollars a month. Tough to buy or fly on that type income. I was buying amoco high test in jerry cans to pour in my Stearman. 1.50 a gallon. Today all the politicians talk about is jobs! We gave em all away, long ago. The Chinese even make our military uniforms! As pogo said, " we have met the enemy....and it is US!" Kids can't even get near a plane. The small airports are all locked up due to typical overreaction. We do however, have a brand new 800 million dollar embassy in Iraq you may want to visit. People were plenty busy back then ! They had decent jobs, raised family's, and I don't ever recall a child or a teacher being gunned down in cold blood. It's all changed and it's not good! Check out the price of a new Cessna sky catcher! NO wonder airports are empty!
 
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this thread is depressing as sh**. I'm going on my long solo xc tomorrow and I'm gonna f****g rock it and I'm gonna be f*****g bad ass. even if it's in my own mind and no one on the planet (other than PoA) even knows I'm doing it (which is pretty close to true, my family knows and ONE of my friends knows and other than that I don't really talk about it much). I don't feel like I have to tell people I fly for it to be as awesome as it is. it's f*****g awesome. and if/when the day comes when it's popular again, I'll be even MORE bad ass than I am right now. you know, if that's even possible.
so yeah, Imma fly that bad ass Piper tomorrow and that's all there is to it. good nite :)
 
This thread wasn't meant to be depressing, it was what I was thinking about at the time. After further thought I'd like to know what I could get involved in to help promote general aviation. What can I do to help get people interested?

I am going to look at our local flight schools and learn more about how they market themselves and what the market is like in the area...may make a few friends along the way.

I don't want to complain about the fact that I don't see much around today but more what can I do to help make it better and get people interested. I think general aviation is a great hobby and I love being involved in it as a student pilot (for now). Can't wait to see where things go...
 
At the gatherings, or fly-ins or whatever I attend I'm often the youngest pilot there. And I'm 42. The days when 15 year old boys (or girls) would wash planes for free just to get a free ride seem to be well over. I don't see any young people hanging around the airport, just old geezers.

Same general experience here. Hanging around the airport with (most) 50 and 60 somethings bores the hell out of me. Obviously there are exceptions. Many of them hang out here. The average pilot can't figure out how to operate a mouse. You might see why we have little in common. :)

As observed, there is no benefit to saying you fly or that you're an aircraft owner. As soon as anything even remotely financial comes up in conversation, you can bet the begrudging "so why don't you sell your plane then?" comes out like clockwork. Nobody is impressed and most of them just glaze over and walk away should the topic arise. They think you're a destroyer of environments at best, or killer of babies at worst. You might as well have told them you're a board member of the NRA. So I never mention I fly or that I have an airplane if I can avoid it. Sometimes people around me, friends, mention it, and then I'll have to acknowledge it, but I try to keep it on the DL.

I don't keep it on the DL. Someone has to be a gun- totin', NRA Life Member, Ham Radio, pilot guy. If someone doesn't like it and would rather spend their weekends dragging the drooling offspring through the mall and stuffing them in the electric door'd minivan, after cramming their pie hole at Cheesecake Factory while acting like they're peace loving hippies because they have a Coexist bumper sticker and green because the minivan is a hybrid, more power to 'em. Yawn. That ain't much of a life.

That said, I do think as a futurist that aviation will get back to it's glory days and even beyond in time. It's inevitable. All we need is critical mass and that critical mass will be technology. Technology will eventually make flying both cheaper and safer. If there were as many people into flying as there were people into cars, then we wouldn't witness what we're seeing today. Airports would be built, not demolished. We will be traveling in electric flying cars/airplanes/hovvercrafts in time.

Disagree. See above minivan. They don't care how it operates, nor do they want to. If it drove their fat asses home while they watched Spongebob in the back they'd be ecstatic. There's no flying yourself in your higher tech version. Most of the country couldn't get themselves home from said mall if you handed them the keys to a stick shift.
 
I am going to look at our local flight schools and learn more about how they market themselves
They don't. Period. it's that simple. Have you ever -- even one time -- seen or heard anything, anywhere other than the FBO bulletin board, in the way of advertising for either CB or Millard? Nope. You're not likely to, either.

The average non-pilot knows absolutely nothing about flying, other than they can buy a ticket on an airliner to go wherever they want to go (as long as it's a major city). Those guys flying around in those scary dangerous little planes? They're all rich guys, or crazy grizzled old Vietnam vets crop dusters who are probably smuggling dope on the side. The average person thinks a Warrior or 172 probably costs more than their house.

There are exceptions. My wife's family are a little more familiar with GA, because one of her farmer uncles had a plane back in the 70s. Still, there's the perception that it's for rich people (Uncle Farmer was pretty well off back when there was a highly speculative hog market). I'm trying to spread the word in my family and among our friends, but flying is regarded as about two notches past motorcycle riding on the crazy scale. And guys who think nothing of blowing half a month's mortgage on a golf weekend still think flying is for rich guys. :dunno:

A couple of people have remarked about the age thing. I just turned 53, and I'm one of the youngest people to show up at EAA and flying club meetings. Much less so the flying club, though; we are seeing some younger blood there because it's a great deal if you fly more than a few hours a month. Still, I know I advertise the club (I'm membership coordinator) more than Hangar One advertises flight school, and all I've done is post an ad on Craigslist when there was a membership for sale.

I am encouraged by the fact that the student pilots seem to be relatively younger (20s and 30s), and there seem to be quite a few of them. Millard usually has at least one or two Cherokees in the pattern on a decent day, and you putter around in or near the practice area at your own peril. Still, there's room for a lot more flying and a lot more instructing.

Root cause? I don't know. Decades of economic beat-down. Decades of risk-averse "You'll shoot your eye out, kid". The complete collapse of the US airplane manufacturing industry in the 80s. An advertising-driven, consumer mindset seems to keep most people unaware of or uninterested in anything other than "pay someone to do this for me". Take your pick, there's plenty of reasons to go around. There's only one thing to do about it...

Go fly. And invite someone to go along with you!
 
If someone doesn't like it and would rather spend their weekends dragging the drooling offspring through the mall and stuffing them in the electric door'd minivan, after cramming their pie hole at Cheesecake Factory while acting like they're peace loving hippies because they have a Coexist bumper sticker and green because the minivan is a hybrid, more power to 'em. Yawn. That ain't much of a life.

Epic rant. +1
 
They don't. Period. it's that simple. Have you ever -- even one time -- seen or heard anything, anywhere other than the FBO bulletin board, in the way of advertising for either CB or Millard? Nope. You're not likely to, either.

The average non-pilot knows absolutely nothing about flying, other than they can buy a ticket on an airliner to go wherever they want to go (as long as it's a major city). Those guys flying around in those scary dangerous little planes? They're all rich guys, or crazy grizzled old Vietnam vets crop dusters who are probably smuggling dope on the side. The average person thinks a Warrior or 172 probably costs more than their house.

There are exceptions. My wife's family are a little more familiar with GA, because one of her farmer uncles had a plane back in the 70s. Still, there's the perception that it's for rich people (Uncle Farmer was pretty well off back when there was a highly speculative hog market). I'm trying to spread the word in my family and among our friends, but flying is regarded as about two notches past motorcycle riding on the crazy scale. And guys who think nothing of blowing half a month's mortgage on a golf weekend still think flying is for rich guys. :dunno:

A couple of people have remarked about the age thing. I just turned 53, and I'm one of the youngest people to show up at EAA and flying club meetings. Much less so the flying club, though; we are seeing some younger blood there because it's a great deal if you fly more than a few hours a month. Still, I know I advertise the club (I'm membership coordinator) more than Hangar One advertises flight school, and all I've done is post an ad on Craigslist when there was a membership for sale.

I am encouraged by the fact that the student pilots seem to be relatively younger (20s and 30s), and there seem to be quite a few of them. Millard usually has at least one or two Cherokees in the pattern on a decent day, and you putter around in or near the practice area at your own peril. Still, there's room for a lot more flying and a lot more instructing.

Root cause? I don't know. Decades of economic beat-down. Decades of risk-averse "You'll shoot your eye out, kid". The complete collapse of the US airplane manufacturing industry in the 80s. An advertising-driven, consumer mindset seems to keep most people unaware of or uninterested in anything other than "pay someone to do this for me". Take your pick, there's plenty of reasons to go around. There's only one thing to do about it...

Go fly. And invite someone to go along with you!

I don't understand, don't they want their businesses to have success? I know Advanced Air does a livingsocial / groupon deal for their ground classes which gets people a good intro to GA. I do know that the perception of owning a plane make people think you are rich; I told a friend that I was buying a 1977 Piper Warrior II and he thought I must have have a ton of money laying around...in reality it is a $30,000 plane. Most of my friends have cars that cost more than the planes I look at.

I just turned 35 a few days ago and I sat at the airport several times and tried to be social with the only crowd there (all quite a bit older than I), it wasn't easy. I did have a guy tell me never to get married as women ruin your life, that was amusing at least.

Either way, I was also looking for some local groups to join as well. Not much around this area...
 
Just in the last 20 yrs since I got my license:
Then & Now
C-150- $42/hr $80/hr
Instructor- $15/hr. $55/hr

It costs over double to get a license now compared to 20 yrs ago.

Look at the cost of maintenance today. Engine overhauled 4 yrs ago at $23,000. Paid almost $2,000 for a couple of magnetos that my mech said were half that cost 5 yrs ago. Just had an annual done this year that costs $6,800. Insurance $1,000. Personal property tax $700. Hanger $225 per month (that's cheap). Fuel $6 per gal. Of course you have all the little indirect costs that spring up through the year.

Why is GA dying? Simple, it's rising cost forces more and more people out every year. Second primary reason is just too many other priorities in life to compete with this expensive hobby.
 
Isn't this not terribly surprising?

Well if salaries rose with the cost of GA then no, it wouldn't be surprising. In my field we definitely don't make twice as much as we did 20 yrs ago.

Oh, I forgot. 100LL was $1.98/gal. Pretty significant increase when you're putting like 40-50 gals in an aircraft.
 
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I think the Internet has played a substantial role in the downsizing of GA in America.

"Back in the day" when someone was curious about flying they went to the local airport, talked to pilots, looked at airplanes and began flying. Social atmosphere in a community of like minded individuals.

Today if someone is interested in flying they begin " researching" on the Internet. Here they find forums and blogs. Then they begin reading about all of these regulations that is implied they must know by heart and that they must go read and understand all "case law" associated with them. They also read post by "experts" telling of all the crashes they've been in and all of the near death experiences these so called experts drone on about.

Throw in the inane arguments on what is the better airplane, why one shouldn't even considered flying a certain model airplane, stories of maintenance nightmares, etc, etc, etc and you begin to see why someone reads this and says, " I'll go buy a motorbike instead" and moves on.
 
Oh one more thing. Frivolous lawsuits driving up the cost of GA!
 
Why is general aviation so dead these days?

when we lock the kids out of the airports hand them a computer and a flight sim, we will never see them at the airport asking if they can wash your aircraft for a ride.

When we lock all the wash racks down and plug the drains so we can't pollute the water, we see less and less flyers active at the airport.

Friday last week I was at AWO, getting a couple parts, and during that time (about 1 hour) I did not see a single aircraft flying. weather was wide open blue, 1990 when you flew to AWO you would check in entering the down wind with 10-12 aircraft in the pattern. I once went to AWO and there were two patterns working 34 and 11, with over lapping patterns and over 30 aircraft in those patterns.

all but 1 of the working A&Ps are gone to work at another occupation. and only 1 flight school is operating.
 
I think the Internet has played a substantial role in the downsizing of GA in America.

"Back in the day" when someone was curious about flying they went to the local airport, talked to pilots, looked at airplanes and began flying. Social atmosphere in a community of like minded individuals.

Today if someone is interested in flying they begin " researching" on the Internet. Here they find forums and blogs. Then they begin reading about all of these regulations that is implied they must know by heart and that they must go read and understand all "case law" associated with them. They also read post by "experts" telling of all the crashes they've been in and all of the near death experiences these so called experts drone on about.

Throw in the inane arguments on what is the better airplane, why one shouldn't even considered flying a certain model airplane, stories of maintenance nightmares, etc, etc, etc and you begin to see why someone reads this and says, " I'll go buy a motorbike instead" and moves on.

:rolleyes: :mad2:
 
Isn't that just for people who fly / build Experimental aircraft? I am not really a builder...would be nice to know people who build but I can't really contribute.

From what I've seen it is people that own and fly certified planes that get together to talk about airplanes. The guys actually building airplanes are too busy to go to meetings.
 
Isn't that just for people who fly / build Experimental aircraft? I am not really a builder...would be nice to know people who build but I can't really contribute.

:no:

If you were remotely interested in aviationthe EAA chapters are where to start. Many non flying members. I can highly recommend chapter 80. They are an active, involved group.
 
From what I've seen it is people that own and fly certified planes that get together to talk about airplanes. The guys actually building airplanes are too busy to go to meetings.

Still the topic is aviation? :dunno:

Chapters do vary in participation. Chapter 80 is busy with builders, certifieds, etc.

The local Chapter 569 spends 6 months a year planning for their beloved Christmas party. The last meeting I attended at 569 they spent 1.5 hours talking about what center pieces to get for the tables at the Christmas party. No, I'm not kidding. Needless to say I have never been back.
 
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Wasn't putting chapters down, just pointing out that there is a lot of pilots that fly certified stuff, and yes it is aviation. Usual deal, go meet the locals.
Still the topic is aviation? :dunno:

Chapters do vary in participation. Chapter 80 is busy with builders, certifieds, etc.

The local Chapter 569 spends 6 months a year planning for their beloved Christmas party. The last meeting I attended at 569 they spent 1.5 hours talking about what center pieces to get for the tables at the Christmas party. No, I'm not kidding. Needless to say I have never been back.
 
I think the Internet has played a substantial role in the downsizing of GA in America.

"Back in the day" when someone was curious about flying they went to the local airport, talked to pilots, looked at airplanes and began flying. Social atmosphere in a community of like minded individuals.

Today if someone is interested in flying they begin " researching" on the Internet. Here they find forums and blogs. Then they begin reading about all of these regulations that is implied they must know by heart and that they must go read and understand all "case law" associated with them. They also read post by "experts" telling of all the crashes they've been in and all of the near death experiences these so called experts drone on about.

Throw in the inane arguments on what is the better airplane, why one shouldn't even considered flying a certain model airplane, stories of maintenance nightmares, etc, etc, etc and you begin to see why someone reads this and says, " I'll go buy a motorbike instead" and moves on.
I can see that being true, but what kinds of inane arguments show up on motorbike forums or forums for other possible activities?
 
I can see that being true, but what kinds of inane arguments show up on motorbike forums or forums for other possible activities?

Rules. It is all about the rules. Those that are inclined to read and follow them to a 'T' will never understand normal men's aversion to them.
What rules do the motorbike guys have to deal with? Speeding(same as everyone else) and getting pinged for loud pipes. Pretty much nothing compared to GA.
 
Rules. It is all about the rules. Those that are inclined to read and follow them to a 'T' will never understand normal men's aversion to them.
What rules do the motorbike guys have to deal with? Speeding(same as everyone else) and getting pinged for loud pipes. Pretty much nothing compared to GA.
I'm guessing people argue about motorbike rules too. One thing is that they vary by state so there are 50 sets of rules. I can see people arguing about helmets and lane-splitting, just off the top of my head. But then I'll admit I've never been on a motorbike forum and am not curious enough to look today.
 
Isn't that just for people who fly / build Experimental aircraft? I am not really a builder...would be nice to know people who build but I can't really contribute.
EAA in general is also for people who restore and/or fly antique and classic planes, warbirds, and those who just have an interest in aviation. Our chapter has a mix of builders, certified A/C owners, and restorers along with some who are just interested or trying to decide if they're going to build or not. And yes, most of the builders do show up for the meetings, it's a good way to escape for some conversation with someone else who will understand the insanity. Our current chapter president is building a fiberglass canard - I think it's a Velocity. Mostly, though, it's just a bunch of pilots talking about pilot stuff. There's even some socializing afterward, a few of the members have hangars at Millard. Come on over on the 11th and check us out.
 
Well if salaries rose with the cost of GA then no, it wouldn't be surprising. In my field we definitely don't make twice as much as we did 20 yrs ago.

Oh, I forgot. 100LL was $1.98/gal. Pretty significant increase when you're putting like 40-50 gals in an aircraft.

This has a lot to do with it. GA has always been expensive. There was no time in history that it was a cheap and affordable hobby for the masses. GA has outpaced inflation in it's increase in costs due to several factors, but I don't think that is the root cause of it's decline.

At the risk of getting this sent over to the Spin Zone, I believe a big factor in the decline of GA is that we have a shrinking middle class. Historically, the demographic of GA pilots has been a majority of upper middle class people. In most parts of the country, we see the upper middle class shrinking and the lower middle class swelling. The lower middle class might like to fly, but they really can't afford it.

It's true that we also have more people joining the upper class too and in areas like the San Francisco Bay Area, you can find quite active airports with shiny new planes on the flight lines, but these select areas of economic prosperity are bubbles and don't reflect the greater country at all. For GA to prosper like it once did, we need quantity. Greater number of pilots means greater demand for airplanes, parts, mechanics, instructors, ATC and yeah, airports. With greater numbers, the costs fall and GA gets a little cheaper for everybody.

I believe the solution to revitalizing GA is deeper and more complex than just getting kids to the airport, or giving rides. The solution lies in revitalizing the middle class first and then GA will follow. How to do that is rant material for the Spin Zone.:(
 
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