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Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Tan, Feb 11, 2021.
Has anyone use the checklist function with their GTN 650 with flight stream 510 installed?
Do you use checklists when the avionics is off?
I use them on the G3X in split screen mode. As mooneydriver stated, they are only good once the avionics are fired up.
I have wondered the same, there is one thread i can find on BT, but I am not a member and cant open the link. may be someone on this board who is also a Bo owner can open this: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=155950
I just made up my check lists for my GTN 750 in my Bonanza. I also have a portable Aera 796 that will accept the same check lists, so in theory I could use it before start up, but more than likely, I will just use the check lists for Taxi and beyond, might review the before taxi. I will still have to work out the kinks and flow. The Garmin check list editor sucks, but works once you know how to use it. There is no useful guidance provided. For me it took a call to Garmin support, who answered my questions. They would have been unnecessary if there was a help feature or simple tutorial.
The real use of them is in memorization. By the time you get your version written out, typed up, in the correct order, and uploaded you can remember the whole thing!
That said, I did put emergency checklists into my ancient Dynon D-100. Mostly because I was bored.
I would never recommend memory in place of aircraft checklists.
I don't think I did. Rather, I pointed out the worthlessness of the feature.
Sorry, I thought you were saying creating a checklist was only valuable to memorize the checklist. I'm media neutral so don't see an electronic checklist as any more or less inherently valuable than a printed one. I don't particularly like them for myself but I've seen pilots who were trained to use them and the ones I have seen use them with more discipline and consistently than most pilots I see with paper ones.
I don't think that's the point. There's been a fair bit of writing about how we should be using checklists as checklists rather than todo lists -- in other words, first we do each group of items from memory, then we use the checklist to confirm that we didn't miss anything. I'm not 100% sure where I stand on that, but it's the general discussion.
That means that you do need to memorize the routine and key emergency checklists first; it doesn't mean that you don't keep the lists as a second check on your memory.
I don't agree. Of course there's obviously some natural memorization, both mental and muscle, which takes place with repetition. After 20 years in Colorado the idea I might ever forget to adjust mixture boggles my mind. But flow-plus-check is not memorization-plus-check. I learned a long time ago not to rely on being able to memorize the procedures for the 30 or so different types of singles I've flown or even the 5 or 6 I fly regularly now. But I do have fairly consistent SOPs (habit patterns) and flow patterns I can use in all of them and back those up with the checklist.
Hi Tan, I use the checklists quite a bit with my GTN 750. I like this functionality.
FS 510 is also present in my GTN, although I don't think it does much to it. If you're wondering how to load the ACE file, just put it on the FS 510 card like any other SD card. I think the name has to be chklist.ace or something similar.
BTW, a tip I can share. If you download the Garmin simulator, you can navigate to the installation directory and drop the chklist.ace file there. That way it's possible to try the check list before going to the airplane.
Flow is a way of memorizing it (more effective than just rote learning the items). Again, the point that several aviation authors have made is that if you use the checklist as a to-do list to prompt you, then it's not really useful as a checklist to verify that you didn't miss something. I'm still making up my own mind on that point.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that,
Sure, happily, but I'm curious what your reservation is.
When I memorise a classical guitar piece, I don't commit hundreds of individual notes to memory — instead, I learn flow of the phrases and chords, and then muscle memory takes my fingers to the right place while I'm playing. I'm pretty sure actors memorising lines work the same way. Learning flows always seemed to me to be the most-sensible way of memorising key action items in the cockpit, because it's so similar to memorisation techniques in other fields
It is a checklist, not a do list. Do your flow, then check and make sure you did it right.
You see use of a cockpit flow as memorization technique. I don't. Part of it might simply be different definitions. I see "memorization" as a conscious process. I remember my childhood. I didn't memorize it.
As a result, I see flow and memorization as different techniques with different purposes. If I'm doing a standard T flow in a 172 (across the bottom and down the pedestal), I don't even have to memorize which switch is the Strobe and which the Beacon. (Good thing since I fly multiple types with very different configurations.)
Of course a collateral result of a flow is going to be remembering things. So is any form of repetition. Fly a 172 a lot at night and turn off the strobes and leave on the beacon on to prevent blinding that landing airplane and you are probably going to remember that the strobe is the one on the right of that groups of switches. But that's not memorization.
True (most of the time). But that's about how to use a checklist, not the form the checklist checklist takes. nd checklist can be used in all three ways — "do," "did," and "brief."
Appreciate what you're saying here. You're making a subtle but meaningful distinction. I'm guessing you and David are closer to agreement in principle than may be obvious at first blush. Terminology can be a bit tricky.
I concur with the way you characterize a flow -- it's really not a form of memorization, it's a faster way of working through a checklist. We don't ever want or need to actually memorize a series of steps outlined in a checklist, a possible exception being when there is no checklist (J-3 Cub, etc.) That word, memorize, will get the attention of an instructor or flight crew. That's just not our goal with this.
Fair enough. The word "memorisation" brings back bad memories for you we don't have to use it here.
I agree that we're talking about the same thing. As I mentioned with music, when we memorise a piece, we don't commit hundreds of notes to memory through rote learning (e.g. "OK, an A eighth note, then a C eighth note, then an E quarter note ...") — that would be insane (and impossible). We memorise pieces by learning the flow of the chords and phrases. Rote learning step-by-step is the worst possible technique for memorisation (inefficient, unreliable, and generally miserable). Instead, effective memorisation means finding ways to connect things and move through them, like a flow through gauges and switches on a panel, sequences of interrelated historical events and dates, phrases and chords (and repeated themes/motifs) in a musical piece, or lines/speeches in a play for an actor.
We’ve been using flows at the airlines for years. We don’t pick up a checklist until the Before Start Checklist. Everything prior to before starting engines is a memorized flow.
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Thanks for sharing that. Is there any confirmation check afterwards that you didn't miss anything in your memorised flows, or do you just count on one pilot catching anything the other misses?
I guess that true of me too. My first checklist use is "Before Start"