Garmin 430 non WAAS installation question

JeffBe

JeffBe

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I contacted a local avionics shop about installing the subject radio and was a little surprised by his response being he didn't think he would be interested in doing the install. Apparently there is a lot of paper work involved (Field approval, create an SFM) because Garmin doesn't provide an STC for non WAAS radios. I've seen templates for the SFM online that are generic and can be used with modification of airplane info inputs.
I would be particularly interested in the opinions of any avionics mechs as to whether or not I need to keep searching avionics shops, or if have a pretty paperweight?
 
How much is the installation? I think you be better off looking for a used GTN, I’d bet with new TXI versions an older model could be picked up for $7,000+.
 
We didn't even get to that point in the conversation. I bought the radio from a friend with the intention of installation being done by a friend of his who does amazing work. I was going to get the 430 and 2 G5s installed for $4k with the caveat that I do all the back bending and routing parts and two months of downtime. The installer is in his 90s. He ended up backing out because he was concerned about liability when we told him we would be renting the plane.
 
JeffBe said:
I would be particularly interested in the opinions of any avionics mechs as to whether or not I need to keep searching avionics shops, or if have a pretty paperweight?
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Do you plan to use the 430 for IFR or just VFR?
What is the "TSO" marking number on the 430 data tag?
What model aircraft will it be installed in?
 
I’ve seen a lot of 430’s installed without a 337 with a placard “430 GPS for VFR use only.”
 
I want to use the 430 IFR. Installing in a Cessna 175.
 

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I found a pretty informative thread in PoA about this. I don't have a post count that will allow me to post the link.
Now my question is if anyone has a recommendation for an avionics guy in the San Diego area.
 
JeffBe said:
I found a pretty informative thread in PoA about this. I don't have a post count that will allow me to post the link.
Now my question is if anyone has a recommendation for an avionics guy in the San Diego area.
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Can't help you with a recommendation, but you may still want to look for an APIA to do this since it's a used 430. At some shop rates your install + approval time costs may get close to the same costs to use a 430W w/ STC install.

FYI: I'm going from distant memory, but your 430 has the correct TSO 129a to go IFR and there is a Garmin STC for the 430 however it was just for a single Piper model. If I recall we simply got a copy of that 430 STC, Garmin AFM supplement, 430 install instructions and installed the unit accordingly. I filled out the 337 referencing those docs and an IA took it to the FSDO which approved it based on the Garmin STC data. Complied with flight checks and it was a done deal. I believe there is an AC that also provides some guidance.
 
Thanks for the insight Bell. The single model thing is really frustrating. The avionics guy I talked to said the same thing about 430W. At first it was a great idea because the guy enjoys doing the installs and doesn't charge much, but...
 
JeffBe said:
The avionics guy I talked to said the same thing about 430W.
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FYI: the 430W is different as it has an AML-STC which covers many models to include yours. In other words, the 430W needs no further approval or cost. The only thing you would need from Garmin is an a permission letter to use the 430W STC on your S/N aircraft.

430W STC
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_...1549cd1862579fe0068127d/$FILE/SA01933LA-D.pdf
430W Approved Model List (AML) Page 4 for your 175.
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_...cd1862579fe0068127d/$FILE/AML SA01933LA-D.pdf
 
Bell206 said:
Can't help you with a recommendation, but you may still want to look for an APIA to do this since it's a used 430. At some shop rates your install + approval time costs may get close to the same costs to use a 430W w/ STC install.

FYI: I'm going from distant memory, but your 430 has the correct TSO 129a to go IFR and there is a Garmin STC for the 430 however it was just for a single Piper model. If I recall we simply got a copy of that 430 STC, Garmin AFM supplement, 430 install instructions and installed the unit accordingly. I filled out the 337 referencing those docs and an IA took it to the FSDO which approved it based on the Garmin STC data. Complied with flight checks and it was a done deal. I believe there is an AC that also provides some guidance.
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Naturally the 90 year old would be concerned about his future. Going thru the above process is old school. My now retired PMI asked me why I got the IA when I went to him to process a similar approval. He pointed at the block with IA in it. There is a required flight test and An IA can then approve the unit for IFR. However, The WAAS units permit the use of RNAV approaches and their lower minimums. The dwindling VOR's and distance between precision approaches make this an issue at times West of the mighty Mississippi
 
BoButt said:
An IA can then approve the unit for IFR
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Don't quite follow your comment. The IA can't "approve the unit for IFR." Thats what the ASI does in Block 3. However you need an IA to sign the 337. So how is that "old school" when getting a field approval?
 
JeffBe said:
I contacted a local avionics shop about installing the subject radio and was a little surprised by his response being he didn't think he would be interested in doing the install. Apparently there is a lot of paper work involved (Field approval, create an SFM) because Garmin doesn't provide an STC for non WAAS radios. I've seen templates for the SFM online that are generic and can be used with modification of airplane info inputs.
I would be particularly interested in the opinions of any avionics mechs as to whether or not I need to keep searching avionics shops, or if have a pretty paperweight?
Click to expand...

This would be a good time to have your general location in your profile. Where are you located?
 
I recently put a non WAAS 420 in my 140. The only reluctance the avionics shop had was worrying about the responsibility of installing used equipment of unknown condition. I made it clear that he was not responsible for it being good.

I traded an engine case for the installation, but his price was $2500. It is all done, works great and is IFR certified.

if you have not already purchased the unit, try to get one with a terrain card. The early ones hadterrain loaded when built and is not updatable with a data card. This requires that you get data from Jeppeson which is more expensive. If you’re only using it VFR this is nota big deal.
 
Thanks!

Well I can’t help, but now that your local people know, maybe they can. I expect you have more avionics shops in your area than I do in mine.

Maybe Ryan is still in business building monoplanes to fly to Paris. Maybe they could help.:)
 
The paperwork isn't hard, it just takes time and coordination to get the FAA/ASI to process it. And since they don't do much of them anymore, it's even more of a hassle. But the AFMS is just a form and the 337 is easy to fill out, some A&Ps just don't want to do it (or don't want to interact with their PMI).
 
Yeah, as I understand, the paperwork for installation of brand new Garmin stuff is easier. If that is true, that’s just one more tool that Garmin uses to lock up the business.
 
The one guy I've talked to said that these units are very popular in EU. He said he has a guy that goes out somewhat regularly and could help with a sale. Then buy a 430W which he would install. Haven't done any research yet on how cost effective that would be vice a newer generation type of radio.
 
If you can make the numbers work a WAAS unit would be wonderful. I got my non WAAS really inexpensively and couldn’t find a WAAS unit without spending a bare minimum of an additional $4000 plus the additional expense of CDI with vertical guidance. If I understand, you own a non WAAS 430. I would think you could get $3000 for it pretty easily and if there’s a better market in Europe maybe more. $7K should get a nice 430W with tray and antenna.

Even though an LPV approach is technically not a precision approach, it is every bit as accurate and useful. It can get you SAFELY to a lower minimum than an LNAV approach with only lateral guidance. That’s really what I wanted to do with my 140, but with engine overhauls on both planes this year it was just not in the cards.

Best of luck working through this. Instrument flying even with a non WAAS 430 is wonderful as opposed to Ground based equipment only.
 
Thanks for the advice. I definitely want the plane IFR equipped. We are renting the plane and want it as capable and desirable to rent as possible. So far we haven't had much luck, but that is another thread...
 
After the unit is installed and approved Then a flight test can be performed to use it IFR. Block three is not necessary for this separate 337. The flight test instructions are the supporting document that are then referred to in the remarks. Thus the IA checks the box. Signs it and sends it to OK city
 
From what I've read, there seems to be work I can do to take some of the load off the installer. I just wonder if the avionics shops would rather sell you the gear so they can get the their profit from the parts.
 
BoButt said:
After the unit is installed and approved
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Approved by what data? The 430 only has one STC (approved data) for an IFR install for a Piper (I think). Every other aircraft model needs separate IFR approval data, like a field approval or a separate STC. Without Block 3 signed by the ASI you have no approved data for the IFR install. VFR 430 installs need no 337 as it is a minor alteration. Hence my question.
 
JeffBe said:
I just wonder if the avionics shops would rather sell you the gear so they can get the their profit from the parts.
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It's a bit more than that. For one, most larger shops are also a CRS which does not provide/permit the owner to work on the aircraft once it is rec'd by the CRS. Then there is the insurance side of things. Usually the only way for you to participate in the install is to field a small non-CRS shop or APIA who allows owner-assisted work. I provided a lot of owner-assisted work for this same reason.
JeffBe said:
Haven't done any research yet on how cost effective that would be vice a newer generation type of radio.
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Perhaps look into the used 430W market and compare prices once you determine a market value on your 430. Another positive to the 430W is that I believe it is the entry model for the Garmin Flight Stream interface. Maybe this wireless option will provide the bump to your rental business?? Maybe you could look for a used 430W/Flight Stream package that was left over from an upgrade?
 
Insurance is always prevalent in aviation anything. I'm sometimes surprised we can afford to fly at all.
It's looking like a 430W may be the better direction.
 
Since you already have bought and own the non wass unit, and if you're stuck with it, how does your second nav com look? Maybe you could use a WASS 430 for your primary, and your non WASS unit for just the nav com radio. I have no idea if that would be allowed, since you were having trouble with installing it in the first place.
 
JeffBe said:
It's looking like a 430W may be the better direction.
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Absolutely, especially if you are trying to attract renters to this airplane.

Another thing worth considering is that Garmin is no longer performing WAAS upgrades on the non-WAAS units, which I believe has left them mostly or completely unsupported. While we all hope that any gear we install will never need service, reality suggests otherwise, especially with 20ish year old electronic devices.
 
The non WAAS units are still in the flat rate repair program, at least the 420 is. The cost has gone way up. A non WAAS 420 is up to $1700. About four years ago, my avionics guy sent my 430W for the flat rate repair for $1200. They sent it back and there was still a problem. He sent it back to them and they sent a virtually new one, all for the $1200 flat rate price.

I might be wrong on the $1200 price from four years ago, but I’m pretty sure that is correct.
 
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