GA - Legal to Carry...

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
Is it legal to carry anything on a GA aircraft that would be also legal to possess on the ground?

For example: Floyd Mayweather is known for carrying $100,000 cash around with him. Would it be legal to transport said cash across multiple state lines? Is it legal to do so assuming he's going to transact business?

What about Gold?

What about Raw Jewels?

Serious Question, sorry for being obscure. I already know that guys carry firearms, that's been covered before.
 
As long as it isn't illegal to "Interstate Transport" it, and it is legal everywhere you land, you should be all set...
 
Civil Forfeiture...Doesn't matter if you are in a plane or a car.
 
If you are carrying Drugs, then this is a very real thing...
 
ja_user said:
If you are carrying Drugs, then this is a very real thing...
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And these days even if you aren't. All the authorities have to do is say they suspect you of carrying drugs or some kind of contraband and they can seize your cash. It's happening more and more.
 
There have been cases where the first question out of the LEOs mouth were "are you carrying cash". As always, don't talk to the police, and don't tell them about any valuables you may be legally carrying.
 
dBrad said:
And these days even if you aren't. All the authorities have to do is say they suspect you of carrying drugs or some kind of contraband and they can seize your cash. It's happening more and more.
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Indeed

Exercise your second amendment rights, keep your mouth shut, agree to nothing.

People are less likley to abuse authority when it appears the victims have the ability to defend themselves, in all senses of the word.
 
James331 said:
Indeed

Exercise your second amendment rights, keep your mouth shut, agree to nothing.

People are less likley to abuse authority when it appears the victims have the ability to defend themselves, in all senses of the word.
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although I fully exercise my second amendment rights, keeping your mouth shut is the fifth amendment.
 
unsafervguy said:
although I fully exercise my second amendment rights, keeping your mouth shut is the fifth amendment.
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To add to this discussion, I would STRONGLY suggest rolling the video on ones phone if any LEO starts to question you, about any matter beyond a simple traffic ticket.

That way there will be NO dispute over what happened, should it get ugly.

And NEVER EVER consent to any search or answer any questions, especially something fishy about if you are carrying cash.
 
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At any traffic stops around here the LEOs always ask "where are you headed?" - like it's really their business to have this info. Nope
 
LE, FAA, whoever; don't consent to anything if asked - don't volunteer, don't offer documents you don't have to show, don't comment on where you came from or where you're going. If they get tough, and say they're searching anyway, just tell them you don't give consent, but will not interfere. I

Tourists from Europe are routinely warned about cash seizures by LE being commonplace in the U.S, and it being difficult-to-impossible to get the money back. That's been a long-standing issue, going back quite a while - it generates a heap of cash for LE, and it's just now getting some attention that may reign it in a bit.
 
I'd like to know what the Supreme Court was smoking the day they decided the asset seizure laws were either reasonable or consistent with due process. :mad:
 
I had a friend at our local sheriffs office that worked at ATL on a drug task force. They seized a lot of cash by simply asking people if they had over $10,000 in cash, if they answered no and they searched them, they kept the money. If they answered yes, they let them go! :mad2::mad2: It's not illegal to have cash, apparently it's illegal to lie about it in an airport! :mad2::mad2:
Luckily, I never have over a few hundred bucks on me! :D

Sundancer said:
LE, FAA, whoever; don't consent to anything if asked - don't volunteer, don't offer documents you don't have to show, don't comment on where you came from or where you're going. If they get tough, and say they're searching anyway, just tell them you don't give consent, but will not interfere. I

Tourists from Europe are routinely warned about cash seizures by LE being commonplace in the U.S, and it being difficult-to-impossible to get the money back. That's been a long-standing issue, going back quite a while - it generates a heap of cash for LE, and it's just now getting some attention that may reign it in a bit.
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Long time lurker here. I'm a student pilot almost ready for my private check ride. I've also been a law enforcement officer for 14 years. Asset forfeiture and search and seizure is vey complex with enough case law to make ones head spin. The law cannot simply seize cash because you are in possession of it. If it can't be proven that the cash was the result of criminal activity then it will be returned. When I was an evidence officer for a short time, I had to personally return several thousand dollars to an unemployed dirt bag that was found hidden under a kitchen sink during a search warrant in a known drug house. The DA wasn't convinced it was drug profit. As for asking people where they are going, I do it on almost every traffic stop. It's usually to make small talk while the violator retrieves their registration and insurance. I work in a popular tourist area and I'm genuinely interested in the destination. I end up giving a lot of directions or suggestions for better routes. It's also a good opportunity to catch any odors coming from the driver, like alcohol.


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Jaybird180 said:
I thought about that, just couldn't remember the name. How likely is that in GA???
Call me skeptic.
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Would a case name like "UNITED STATES of America...
v.ONE 1978 PIPER CHEROKEE AIRCRAFT..." ease your skepticism? Granted, this case involved an alleged drug dealer, but civil forfeiture absolutely can and does happen in GA. A quick search didn't find any cases where cash was seized, but the standards for whether an officer could do so are no different in an airplane than in a car: in most cases, they're just looking for probable cause that you're engaged in something illicit. The so-called "automobile exception" makes probable cause under Am. IV easier to establish regarding cars because of their mobility - I'd be curious myself whether there's any similar exception for aircraft.

If I find time, I'll do a Demystifying post about forfeitures over on my blog. Their history, use, and abuse is really kind of fascinating.

This post is not a legal opinion - consult your attorney if you have a particular question. If you want to know a bit more about how to handle a seizure in general, read this.
 
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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How in the world could this civil forfeiture stuff by any stretch of the imagination not be a direct violation of the above?
 
cowman said:
How in the world could this civil forfeiture stuff by any stretch of the imagination not be a direct violation of the above?
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EXACTLY what I am wondering myself:mad2::mad2:

Anyone??

It should be JUST as hard for the government to seize you property as it is for them to convict you of a criminal offense. Period.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Those rights apply to people, not property. Property has no rights.
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The right to property is the right of the person, also perhaps more significantly property is specifically enumerated in the 5th amendment.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Civil forfeiture actions are in rem proceedings, which means literally “against a thing”—the property itself is charged with a crime.That is why civil forfeiture proceedings have bizarre titles, such as United States v. $10,500 in U.S. Currency or People v. Certain Real and Personal Property. And because they are civil proceedings, most of the constitutional protections afforded criminal defendants do not apply to property owners in civil forfeiture cases
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That's the theory. Read the link I provided earlier.
 
Kevin16587 said:
Long time lurker here. I'm a student pilot almost ready for my private check ride. I've also been a law enforcement officer for 14 years. Asset forfeiture and search and seizure is vey complex with enough case law to make ones head spin. The law cannot simply seize cash because you are in possession of it. If it can't be proven that the cash was the result of criminal activity then it will be returned. When I was an evidence officer for a short time, I had to personally return several thousand dollars to an unemployed dirt bag that was found hidden under a kitchen sink during a search warrant in a known drug house. The DA wasn't convinced it was drug profit. As for asking people where they are going, I do it on almost every traffic stop. It's usually to make small talk while the violator retrieves their registration and insurance. I work in a popular tourist area and I'm genuinely interested in the destination. I end up giving a lot of directions or suggestions for better routes. It's also a good opportunity to catch any odors coming from the driver, like alcohol.


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Exhibit 1
http://ij.org/tennessee-bill-would-abolish-civil-forfeiture

Exhibit 2
http://www.scrippsmedia.com/newschannel5/news/newschannel-5-investigates/policing-for-profit
 
Kevin16587 said:
Long time lurker here. I'm a student pilot almost ready for my private check ride. I've also been a law enforcement officer for 14 years. Asset forfeiture and search and seizure is vey complex with enough case law to make ones head spin. The law cannot simply seize cash because you are in possession of it. If it can't be proven that the cash was the result of criminal activity then it will be returned. When I was an evidence officer for a short time, I had to personally return several thousand dollars to an unemployed dirt bag that was found hidden under a kitchen sink during a search warrant in a known drug house. The DA wasn't convinced it was drug profit. As for asking people where they are going, I do it on almost every traffic stop. It's usually to make small talk while the violator retrieves their registration and insurance. I work in a popular tourist area and I'm genuinely interested in the destination. I end up giving a lot of directions or suggestions for better routes. It's also a good opportunity to catch any odors coming from the driver, like alcohol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I respectfully ask you to look at my earlier post in this thread. The woman I cited wasn't the first one that had to sue that I'm aware of here. I opine her money should not have even been taken.

Perhaps you could explain why she needed to sue to get her money back?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I respectfully ask you to look at my earlier post in this thread. The woman I cited wasn't the first one that had to sue that I'm aware of here. I opine her money should not have even been taken.



Perhaps you could explain why she needed to sue to get her money back?
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I didn't read anywhere in the article that said she had to sue to get her money back. And it said the judge ordered her cash be returned. That's very similar to the example I provided. The link was only one page long so it's possible I didn't see the whole story. I agree that she should get her money back. I think it's asinine that anybody would have to sue to get property back if that was the case. I will say that it's HIGHLY unusual for people to travel with that amount of currency and it would prompt most reasonable people to suspect something's going on.

From my ground level perspective, asset forfeiture does not happen very often. In fact, since transferring to my current station 5 years ago I haven't heard of one case locally. Maybe it's because my agency is pretty conservative and there is a ton of red tape involved. My advise is to fly rather than drive when you have to transport your $1 million in cash. Fewer chances of getting pulled over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Kevin16587 said:
Long time lurker here. I'm a student pilot almost ready for my private check ride. I've also been a law enforcement officer for 14 years. Asset forfeiture and search and seizure is vey complex with enough case law to make ones head spin. The law cannot simply seize cash because you are in possession of it. If it can't be proven that the cash was the result of criminal activity then it will be returned. When I was an evidence officer for a short time, I had to personally return several thousand dollars to an unemployed dirt bag that was found hidden under a kitchen sink during a search warrant in a known drug house. The DA wasn't convinced it was drug profit. As for asking people where they are going, I do it on almost every traffic stop. It's usually to make small talk while the violator retrieves their registration and insurance. I work in a popular tourist area and I'm genuinely interested in the destination. I end up giving a lot of directions or suggestions for better routes. It's also a good opportunity to catch any odors coming from the driver, like alcohol.


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While your answer has that apple pie and American flag appeal, the facts are that millions of dollars in cash are seized every year from people unable to afford legal representation and/or stand up to the money fueled cash seizure machine.

A simple Google search will confirm my statement. For example:

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2...ome-fighting-to-keep-it-despite-judges-order/
 
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N747JB said:
I had a friend at our local sheriffs office that worked at ATL on a drug task force. They seized a lot of cash by simply asking people if they had over $10,000 in cash, if they answered no and they searched them, they kept the money. If they answered yes, they let them go! :mad2::mad2: It's not illegal to have cash, apparently it's illegal to lie about it in an airport! :mad2::mad2:
Luckily, I never have over a few hundred bucks on me! :D
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That falls under customs law.

PENALTIES: Civil and criminal penalties, including under certain circumstances a fine of not more than $500,000 and Imprisonment of not more than ten years, are provided for failure to file a report, filing a report containing a material omission or misstatement, or filing a false or fraudulent report. In addition, the currency or monetary instrument may be subject to seizure and forfeiture. See 31 U.S.C.5321 and 31 CFR 1010.820; 31 U.S.C. 5322 and 31 CFR 1010.840; 31 U.S.C. 5317 and 31 CFR 1010.830, and U.S.C. 5332.

You can travel with a million dollars, as long as it is declared, no problem. Failure to declare over 10k it can be seized. A lot of people are afraid to declare it because they think it taxed. It isn't!
 
Kevin16587 said:
From my ground level perspective, asset forfeiture does not happen very often. In fact, since transferring to my current station 5 years ago I haven't heard of one case locally. Maybe it's because my agency is pretty conservative and there is a ton of red tape involved. My advise is to fly rather than drive when you have to transport your $1 million in cash. Fewer chances of getting pulled over.
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Then your department is something of an exception.

On average, 15% of law enforcement budgets come from forfeiture. And I have seen police cars with "Purchased using drug forfeiture funds" painted on the back.

Wayne County MI (where I live) even has a special asset forfeiture unit... http://www.waynecounty.com/prosecutor/391.htm
 
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Disclosure: I have been associated with the police and fire departments for many years so I am biased towards these folks.

Now, as brother Kevin noted, asset seizure is complex - but it is not stopping police departments or even slowing them down.
My county sheriff drives around in the fanciest Mustang, Ford ever built as a one-off. Seized from a "suspected" drug dealer.

Even with my background, if stopped I become a CLAM
(boy, do they get pizzed)
Do you know your tail light is out?
Here is my license and insurance binder officer.
So, where are you going?
Am I free to go officer?
I asked where you are going.
Am I free to go officer.
(back and forth a few more times)
FInally he all but throws the citation for defective safety equipment at me and snarls - Send a copy of the receipt for the bulb and a signed statement you have repaired it to the court clerk and he will void the citation - and stomps away.

Yes, I like police officers. But when they have officially stopped me they are just another threat to be treated with caution - like a pit bull running loose..
 
Kevin16587 said:
I didn't read anywhere in the article that said she had to sue to get her money back. And it said the judge ordered her cash be returned. That's very similar to the example I provided. The link was only one page long so it's possible I didn't see the whole story. I agree that she should get her money back. I think it's asinine that anybody would have to sue to get property back if that was the case. I will say that it's HIGHLY unusual for people to travel with that amount of currency and it would prompt most reasonable people to suspect something's going on.

From my ground level perspective, asset forfeiture does not happen very often. In fact, since transferring to my current station 5 years ago I haven't heard of one case locally. Maybe it's because my agency is pretty conservative and there is a ton of red tape involved. My advise is to fly rather than drive when you have to transport your $1 million in cash. Fewer chances of getting pulled over.

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  1. Why was a judge involved if she didn't have to sue? A federal judge at that?
  2. Maybe this reference will make it more clear: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...or-return-of-1m-cash-savings-hasnt-been-paid/
  3. In fact, according to the reference cited in #2, she wasn't paid even after the ruling. I don't know if that has changed, 2 years later.
  4. Do you think it is OK for the cash to have been seized, despite no evidence of wrong-doing?
 
A pit bull on the loose? If I wanted to hear about cop bashing I would just turn on the news. Sorry to the OP for derailing this thread. I only clicked on it because I'm close to check ride time and I'm trying to absorb as much as I can. I thought this would be helpful to read. It was not.

I know there is corruption in all facets of life, including law enforcement and the criminal justice system. That's an unfortunate fact that makes me sick. However, if a criminal makes a profit selling something illegal and gets pulled over with a wad of cash, should he be allowed to keep it? If not, then who should get the money? It's a serious question.

In the area where I work the only people who clam up on a traffic stop are Constitutionalists and know-it-all college kids who read something on the Internet. Criminals can't keep their mouth shut and tell their life story.

One of the most common questions I get from strangers is, "What's the best way to get out of a ticket." I start by telling them not to get pulled over in the first place. Then I tell them to be respectful and honest to the officer. The guy that admits to going a little to fast has a much better chance of leaving with a warning than the guy who doesn't. The ones who clam up almost always get a ticket. Remember, cops are humans. Humans are accustomed to two way conversations with other people during their daily interactions. And cops are accustomed to most people having a "normal" conversation whether it's on a traffic stop or the coffee shop. Anything other than that and the interaction changes.

I'm going to stick to reading posts about the antics of student pilots and people sharing their passion for aviation. Carry on.




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Cap'n Jack said:
  1. Why was a judge involved if she didn't have to sue? A federal judge at that?
  2. Maybe this reference will make it more clear: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...or-return-of-1m-cash-savings-hasnt-been-paid/
  3. In fact, according to the reference cited in #2, she wasn't paid even after the ruling. I don't know if that has changed, 2 years later.
  4. Do you think it is OK for the cash to have been seized, despite no evidence of wrong-doing?
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My opinion is that if property is seized and the person is not convicted of any Criminal activity that was directly related to the seized property, that person should get their property back. Don't waste your time and energy on me though. I'm just a ground pounder and I have no authority to change any of this. Write your congressman or tell your hairdresser or something.


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To tie a couple of these threads together, the reason this (theoretically) doesn't violate Am. V/XIV's due process clauses is the fact that you can (theoretically) sue to get it back. In legalese this is called a post-deprivation remedy, and it's allowable in a variety of situations where the subject matter is time-sensitive. "If we don't let the cops seize the cash immediately," the thinking goes, "this person will hide/use the cash and we won't be able to stop the crime. If he's innocent, we'll let him haul the cops into court and prove it."

I'm guessing a lot of people wouldn't agree with that line of thought, but it's at least what we'd call colorable and it's been reaffirmed over and over again since our concept of due process was born.
 
Kevin16587 said:
A pit bull on the loose? If I wanted to hear about cop bashing I would just turn on the news. Sorry to the OP for derailing this thread. I only clicked on it because I'm close to check ride time and I'm trying to absorb as much as I can. I thought this would be helpful to read. It was not.

I know there is corruption in all facets of life, including law enforcement and the criminal justice system. That's an unfortunate fact that makes me sick. However, if a criminal makes a profit selling something illegal and gets pulled over with a wad of cash, should he be allowed to keep it? If not, then who should get the money? It's a serious question.

In the area where I work the only people who clam up on a traffic stop are Constitutionalists and know-it-all college kids who read something on the Internet. Criminals can't keep their mouth shut and tell their life story.

One of the most common questions I get from strangers is, "What's the best way to get out of a ticket." I start by telling them not to get pulled over in the first place. Then I tell them to be respectful and honest to the officer. The guy that admits to going a little to fast has a much better chance of leaving with a warning than the guy who doesn't. The ones who clam up almost always get a ticket. Remember, cops are humans. Humans are accustomed to two way conversations with other people during their daily interactions. And cops are accustomed to most people having a "normal" conversation whether it's on a traffic stop or the coffee shop. Anything other than that and the interaction changes.

I'm going to stick to reading posts about the antics of student pilots and people sharing their passion for aviation. Carry on.




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Either I got the answer I was looking for a long time ago, I forgot what I really wanted to know or it doesn't matter....nevertheless, derail threads is what we do here. Sometimes it's fun and I learn something that I never considered, sometimes it's not fun.

Stick around and do more than lurk sometimes. Most humans learn best by active participation.
 
Kevin16587 said:
...I will say that it's HIGHLY unusual for people to travel with that amount of currency and it would prompt most reasonable people to suspect something's going on...
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I would not normally comment on this topic as a military officer but with you saying this as a LEO I am slightly concerned about your thought process. I am not rich by any means, but I have friends who are millionaires like I'm sure some of you (or most) do as well. I have known, traveled with, and been around for transactions where millions has changed hands. (I'm talking high end car dealership owners and fine gun dealers)

Is it "HIGHLY unusual" in your circle of friends but may be the norm in some other circles? How exactly does that give you the right to assume that any "reasonable people" would be suspect that "something's going on..." Of course SOMETHING is going on, but that something may be very legal and of no concern to you except you're curious because it's a large amount of money to you. That is where innocent until proven guilty comes into play. You can't accuse me of SOMETHING because I have a million dollars.

Words on the internet, and I get it. Just think about how you view things. Not everything is as it may seem.
 
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