G1000 what are the thoughts?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by TimRF79, Feb 20, 2021.

  1. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I am currently thinking of what plane I want next.
    It looks a 182 fits the bill.
    Incase i go with a S or T, what are the thoughts on G1000 versus non G1000?
     
  2. kaiser

    kaiser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not sure this applies to the Cessna G1000s, I rent a DA40 from a club that is Non-WAAS G1000. Apparently there was a few years where they sold them like this - and from what I understand, no feasible upgrade path.
     
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  3. Cervieres

    Cervieres Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you are an IFR pilot, the G1000 is hard to beat. It will make your 182 an electric airplane (except for the vacuum driven backup AI) with improved reliability, especially if you opt for a backup alternator, which is money well spent for anyone doing a lot of IFR and night ops. I've owned 3 G1000 aircraft in the past 15 years and have never had any issues with hardware or software other than scheduled firmware updates and a transponder upgrade for ADS-B. The situational awareness and integration provided by the G1000 is superb, especially if you opt for things like geo-referenced charts, surface watch, TAWS-B, and the GDL weather link. My only minor gripe with the Cessna G1000 is that there is not a dedicated full screen display for engine parameters like you get from Diamond and Cirrus.

    For VFR only, steam gauges would probably be fine, but if you can afford a G1000 C182, I don't think you would be disappointed. Best of luck in your search for a new plane.
     
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  4. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route

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    I bought an '07 C182T brand new. Flew it almost 900 hours. the G100 was WAAS version...it worked flawlessly. The GFC700 Autopilot was absolutely ROCK solid.
    The 06 versions had the KAP140 AP...which is nice but not even close toe the GFC700.

    Planes of this vintage are holding their values quote profoundly. An equivalent air frame (07-08-09) to the one I had is selling used with 700-1300 hours for more than they sold for brand new.
    https://vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/1056/2007-cessna-182t-skylane

    I'd ask someone in the know about how Garmin support is for the systems...the G-1000 (or whatever the model is now) is now about three or four generations past the original G1000.

    Overall, these planes are expensive to buy but they are easy to fix and very dependable.
     
  5. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Since you're considering later models, one thing to bear in mind is that a lot of the non-G1000 ones have the KLN 89B or KLN 94 GPS, both of which are non-WAAS, which means you can't fly LPV approaches.
     
  6. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

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  7. Cervieres

    Cervieres Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Factory new is going to cost somewhere between $500-600K depending on options.
     
  8. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    One thing to consider is that a non-G1000 plane is going to much easier to upgrade than a G1000 one. The non-G1000 will likely have a KLN 94. Swap this out for a Garmin GNX375 for a few grand and you’ve got touchscreen, Bluetooth, backup AHRS, LPV and ADS-B In/Out. If you get a non-WAAS G1000 then those goodies become more complicated because the G1000 was certified as part of the airframe.
     
  9. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route

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    I paid 325k in 2007. Sold for 310K in 2012 after 890 hours on enjoyment.I have no idea what they cost today.
     
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  10. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    I don't know the Cessna G1000 systems well, but the Piper and Diamond G1000 and G500 installations I've seen and maintained were STCd into the airframe despite being factory installed. Other than possibly costing more to upgrade, I would think an upgrade would be relatively easy to do. I suspect we aren't far off from seeing the early g1000 installations ripped out for whatever is new in a few years.

    EDIT: I just realized that I know of a G1000 Cessna 206 that is going into the shop next week for an NXI upgrade. So I guess it is already happening.

    That said, I think your recommendation has a lot of merit and it is probably the way I would go, given the choice between a late steam gauge airplane and an early G1000 one. If we're talking about a newer G1000 airplane, particularly one with the GFC700, vs. steam my answer would be the opposite.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  11. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    Yeah, I forgot to mention that combination. I would agree with you there too, IF it already had ADS-B or if there was a clear path to ADS-B. And especially so if it had NXi.
     
  12. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    ADS-B upgrades don't seem to be much of a problem, even in the dead end DA-40 airplanes. I think the Diamond we just did cost $7 or 8k to comply. The downside is that the options for compliance are more limited with the G1000 than they are in a steam gauge airplane with minimal integration between boxes.
     
  13. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    Yeah, but something to keep in mind is that the upgrade path is still limited to older G1000->newer G1000. It can be a great upgrade but it's still a limitation. And is there a path from KAP140->GFC700?

    On the other hand, the 182S gauges can be upgraded to G5's, GI275's, G3x, Aspen, Dynon, etc. And KAP140->GFC500, Trio, TruTrak, etc.
     
  14. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    Since the G1000 systems are STCd into the airplane I think it could all be ripped out and replaced just like the old airplanes. It likely would cost more to do that though because right now the G1000 planes seem to command a premium over steam, plus the labor to remove everything and start from scratch would almost certainly be greater than starting with a steam airplane.
     
  15. Geosync

    Geosync Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This.
    The company T182T I fly is a 2004, first year of the G1000 option. The guy who hired me(retired now) picked it up from the factory and he went with the steam gauges, since it was first year of the G1000 and thought there would be kinks to work out. I just had it upgraded from the stock KLN/Bendix to GTN750/G5s, ADSB in/out, Bluetooth and she’s fantastic IFR now, even with the KAP-140 still installed. Have a yoke mounted Garmin for XM weather which seems a little better than the ADSB. Get the traffic and weather on the iPad.

    I have some time in G1000 DA40s and it was fine, but I’m really digging the 6 pack set up. If I were buying, this would probably tip the scales for me. I also learned on steam and have no real career need to go full glass(at this point).
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think there are two separate issues here.

    1. If you purchase an integrated OEM system, ultimately, the only system upgrade path might be an STC system replacement. You can install a G1000 NXi, but can't replace the G1000 PFD with a G600 (or can you?).

    2. What upgrades to the current system have the airframe and avionics manufacturers agreed to?

    Ultimately, all G1000 owners need to deal with #1, but from what I've read, Diamond owners have had to deal with #2 in a way Cessna owners have not.
     
  17. Cervieres

    Cervieres Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Upgrading from an older G1000 to an NXi is going to cost substantially more than going from steam to an Aspen system or a G600, probably a little over $30k.

    Does anyone know what the expected service life would be for a WAAS enabled G1000/GFC700 before a hardware upgrade was required? That might be an important consideration thinking about buying steam with an intent to upgrade versus OEM glass. My last aircraft was a 2012 DA40 with this setup, and my avionics shop didn't think that replacement or upgrade would be an issue anytime soon.
     
  18. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route

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    I think the first G1000s came out in 2004 or real close to that. The first ones with WAAS was 2006 or 2007. They are still out there running strong...

    I do not know of any "requirement" to upgrade from the G1000 to to the NXI...


     
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  19. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Having dealt with electronics obsolescence issues more than once in past employment, I would say one possible reason is that repair parts can eventually run out. Given the size of the installed base, one hopes that Garmin will continue to find it worthwhile to incur the engineering expense of finding and certifying alternatives when this happens.
     
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  20. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route

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    Huge amen to that!

    I am changing out a generation of very high end audio mixing consoles because the parts to build replacement boards are simply no longer available. I wonder what the parts life of these new desks will be...They are crazy complicated and are almost 100% network attached....

     
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  21. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I was the engineer who was tasked with finding a suitable replacement when a chip became unavailable in one of my former employer's products. Fortunately for me, the chip maker had come out with a backwards-compatible replacement. Otherwise it would have gotten ugly!
     
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  22. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    This was going to be my addition to this thread. Look for a “round dial” 182 P or Q and upgrade the panel the way you want.

    Both models are one of the sweet spots for the airframe. And good examples are on the market in the $80’s to $120’s. Upgrading will be around $65k to $100k depending on what you select

    Our ownership group has our 182P in the shop now for a big panel upgrade: G3X Touch, GTN650xi, PMA450 audio, GFC500 AP, G5 as backup PFD, and some other items. The engine is new(ish) as is the paint. Once done, we are going to have one of the nicest 182’s north of I-30.

    And as capable as the G1000 equipped ones. But for way less than the prices you see on the fore sale sites.
     
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  23. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    We're already seeing the threshold on that, at least to some extent. Look at the support for the GNS430/530 right now. They're still sort of repairable but it depends on what is wrong with them. I don't think 530 screens have been available for several years now. Not sure on the 430. WAAS upgrades are NLA.

    The obsolescence has sped up too. The reason for the new version of the GTN series GPS is because parts for the old ones have already gone away. Garmin used it as a marketing tool but those of us that have dealt with obsolete electronics know what's going on. I confirmed my suspicions with the local avionics shop when the change happened too.

    As far as I'm concerned, it's a fool's errand to believe that any of the electronics people are installing today will be supportable in 30-40 years like the previous radios were.
     
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  24. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    BTDT many times. It's nice when it is easy but sometimes it required major rework!
     
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  25. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    More capable, actually. A few things your panel can do that a G1000 C182 cannot:
    • Multiple music distribution modes
    • Multiple mute modes
    • Multiple Bluetooth connections in/out
    • Autopilot AHRS failover
    • Backup turn coordinator
    • Backup magnetometer indicator
    • Backup VSI
    • Backup flight director
    I've seen a rack full of line cards replaced with a single chip for that same reason. The good news is that the resulting source code is much more portable than the set of schematics from which it was derived.
     
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  26. sgenie

    sgenie Pre-Flight

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    I fly 182T and 182Q regularly and must say that G1000 is a wonderful peace of equipment. 182Q has 650 and I like it, but it is hard to compare with the information ocean that G1000 provides. Also, the autopilot is one awesome peace of equipment in 182T
     
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  27. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks all for the feedback.
    I would summarize, the G1000 is a great piece of equipment, but has limited upgrade capabilities.
    The non-G1000 planes allow upgrade to a G3x / G500 and GTN, which ends up being nicer than a G1000
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
  28. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    They don't make the GNS series any more.
     
  29. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    thanks, fixed the typo
     
  30. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    Count me as not a G1000 fan. The logic is like an overgrown 430. Add in the lack of WAAS on the earliest ones and I wouldn't pay for it. G3x is a much nicer solution and you are likely to come out ahead buying a round dial plane and upgrading
     
  31. Cervieres

    Cervieres Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you purchased a WAAS enabled G1000 aircraft with a GFC700, what would you want to upgrade? The NXi will get you faster processor speeds, envelope protection, tablet integration, and a few other trivial bells and whistles. Other than faster boot times and smoother panning, there's not a ton of noticeable difference.

    Comparing a 15 year old non-WAAS G1000 to a new G3x is apples to oranges. NXi versus G3x is a better comparison, and the NXi will come out on top unless having a touch screen is important. But, replacing steam gauges with a G3x or other glass would be a fraction of the cost of converting early generation non-WAAS G1000 to NXi, which is a compelling argument to save money by purchasing steam and upgrading if price point is an issue.

    Another minor thing to consider is the down time required to replace a panel, and the electrical gremlins which tend to be fairly common in older vacuum driven aircraft converted to aftermarket glass.

    If you haven't had an opportunity to fly behind a G1000, that could be worthwhile. OEM glass might not be worth the cost for the type of flying you do. Personally, I think it is a reliable and well designed system, especially for single pilot IFR and flight in congested airspace.
     
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  32. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    PFD on an NXi is still 1024x768 while the G3x is 20% better at 1280x768. The NXi as installed on the Cessna 182T is still single AHRS while G3x is dual AHRS with autopilot failover. A PS-Engineering PMA450b audio panel runs circles around the NXi audio features. I don't recall NXi having the voice control feature of a GMA350c either.

    I will admit that the NXi does get better once you move up a rung or two from the C182T. But the OP is looking at the C182T.