Fuel flow monitor

Timbeck2

Timbeck2

Final Approach
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Timbeck2
I know there was a thread on it before but I can't find the one I saw so I'll ask the question again if those in the CFI thread can tear themselves away long enough to voice an opinion.

What monitor do you guys have and how does it work for a two tank aircraft like most of the ones we fly? I'm not interested (anymore) in the all in one with the CHT, oil pressure, temp, etc. Just the ones like the JPI that give you fuel flow at a glance, fuel remaining, etc.

With two tanks (and none of them I've seen seem to depict two tanks just total fuel remaining) how do you accurately monitor your fuel consumption/remaining?

I'm looking seriously at this one.

FS-450-2015.jpg
 
The Archer at the club has a Shadin fuel flow, looks very similar to what you posted. At a glance it gives fuel flow, and time remaining.. or some other setup based on what mode it is on. Very simple to setup and talks to the G650

**Great question on the two tanks though. In my case I just am disciplined about the tank switching and have the reminder setup in the Garmin. I've never really used more than about 3 hrs worth of fuel in one flight so I've never gotten quite to the point where running one tank dry would be an issue..

For what it's worth I find the Archer fuel gauges more accurate than Cessnas. I have a little dip stick thing and check the fuel before and after and the cockpit gauges seem more or less spot on. Not bad for a 1970s airplane with mostly original tech!
 
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in but I wonder why the one transducer on the fuel line into the carb which only reads total fuel when it would seem (at least to me) to have one transducer on each line leaving each tank would be more logical so you can see the fuel remaining in each tank.
 
^my understanding was that the fuel remaining is based on a calculation from fuel flow and time. In ours we have to set the fuel level manually during start up and then it calculates it from there based on flow and time. I was under the impression that the one transducer into the carb was to ascertain fuel flow. But I could be wrong. Will be interested to see what someone more knowledgeable replies!
 
GeorgeC said:
This one? Shiny...

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/cies-digital-fuel-readout.108308/
Click to expand...

Appreciate that link George. I'm going to do more research but if that is already approved for GA aircraft I'm going that direction. I have to pull the tanks anyway to replace my fuel hoses pretty soon. I can easily calculate what my fuel burn is and I don't necessarily have to know in real time. The only reason was that I would really like accurate fuel gauges and this seems to fit the bill. Has anyone explored this option?
 
I have an E.I. CGR-30P in my Cherokee. It is set up for two tanks and tracks each tank separately. It also annunciates after each 5 gallons of fuel burn to remind you to swap tanks. It displays the gallons remaining for each tank plus it displays a total fuel remaining. The other cool thing is that it sends this fuel information over to the GTN650 which uses it to perform live fuel calculations during your flight.

In your post I know you said you were looking only for a fuel monitor. It may be that the other E.I. fuel monitors may have this same capability. Unless the cost is just too prohibitive for you, why not just go ahead and put in a full engine monitor like the CGR-30P. It fits right in the tach hole and is a fairly straight forward install.
 
Tantalum said:
^my understanding was that the fuel remaining is based on a calculation from fuel flow and time. In ours we have to set the fuel level manually during start up and then it calculates it from there based on flow and time. I was under the impression that the one transducer into the carb was to ascertain fuel flow. But I could be wrong. Will be interested to see what someone more knowledgeable replies!
Click to expand...
On the CGR-30P, If you install the appropriate level transducers in your fuel tanks, they can send that information to your monitor, without those level transducers they use the calculated level based on fuel flow and which tank is selected.
 
Keep in mind, if your tanks crossflow during fueling the tank you fill first will crossfill to the other tank and not be full to the top, unless you go back and top it off after you fill the second tank. Other tank arrangements may have their peculiarities.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Keep in mind, if your tanks crossflow during fueling the tank you fill first will crossfill to the other tank and not be full to the top, unless you go back and top it off after you fill the second tank. Other tank arrangements may have their peculiarities.
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Does not apply to a Cherokee like the OP has.
 
Tim... I've got a bit of each going on.

The Six has a JPI EDM900 -- all the bells and whistles
The Cardinal has a Shadin fuel computer -- very capable, linked to the navigator for "fuel at destination" and other stuff
My RV has a FuelCheck LT which gives me good flow, time remaining at that flow, etc

They're all great info and it will eventually come down to the feature set to cost question. The ones that monitor flow rate and reduce the user inputted total fuel will cost less than the ones that are doing tank measurements. In addition to a flow sensor you'll be looking (most likely) new fuel senders in each wing.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I know there was a thread on it before but I can't find the one I saw so I'll ask the question again if those in the CFI thread can tear themselves away long enough to voice an opinion.

What monitor do you guys have and how does it work for a two tank aircraft like most of the ones we fly? I'm not interested (anymore) in the all in one with the CHT, oil pressure, temp, etc. Just the ones like the JPI that give you fuel flow at a glance, fuel remaining, etc.

With two tanks (and none of them I've seen seem to depict two tanks just total fuel remaining) how do you accurately monitor your fuel consumption/remaining?

I'm looking seriously at this one.

FS-450-2015.jpg
Click to expand...

Fuel quantity indicator is not the same thing as a fuel flow indicator, which are you interested in?
 
Timbeck2 said:
Hmmmm, I never saw that one but this would be ideal.

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Click to expand...

That is a fuel quantity indicator. It is only as good as the fuel level transmitters in the fuel tank (no it doesn't come with new ones).
 
MickYoumans said:
I have an E.I. CGR-30P in my Cherokee. It is set up for two tanks and tracks each tank separately. It also annunciates after each 5 gallons of fuel burn to remind you to swap tanks. It displays the gallons remaining for each tank plus it displays a total fuel remaining. The other cool thing is that it sends this fuel information over to the GTN650 which uses it to perform live fuel calculations during your flight.

In your post I know you said you were looking only for a fuel monitor. It may be that the other E.I. fuel monitors may have this same capability. Unless the cost is just too prohibitive for you, why not just go ahead and put in a full engine monitor like the CGR-30P. It fits right in the tach hole and is a fairly straight forward install.
Click to expand...

Mick I had every intention of going that route with the CGR-30P but it is more costly and I would still have to shell out the $800 or so for the magnetic senders making it a $4000 upgrade as opposed to a $1500 upgrade. And you still have to do mental gymnastics every time you add fuel with the CGR-30P. I want to keep it simple and install the senders and the gauge and be done with it.
 
Brian, when I originally started the thread it WAS for a fuel flow indicator but my ultimate goal was to know how much fuel I had left in the tanks. Now with technology I didn't know existed has come up, it is now a fuel quantity indicator that I'm after. I know my fuel flow runs between 8.5 and 9 gph and that won't change and I don't need to read it in real time. What I need real time is how much fuel I have left.
 
One of the Warriors I fly had the exact FS-450 that you showed. It was installed because the previous Warrior was lost in a fuel exhaustion accident.

How well does it work given the 2 tank system? It works great. The fuel flow system works by monitoring fuel flow through the fuel line, a new sensor is installed inline in the fuel supply system. So I terms of how well it measures the fuel consumed, it is highly accurate. It does nothing for how much you had in the first place.

The monitor is easy to use - just set the starting fuel and it counts down the amount remaining and shows the amount used.

Despite the fault that you don’t know your starting fuel to the accuracy that the sensor measures flow, I highly recommend it.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Brian, when I originally started the thread it WAS for a fuel flow indicator but my ultimate goal was to know how much fuel I had left in the tanks. Now with technology I didn't know existed has come up, it is now a fuel quantity indicator that I'm after. I know my fuel flow runs between 8.5 and 9 gph and that won't change and I don't need to read it in real time. What I need real time is how much fuel I have left.
Click to expand...

I don't think there are many approved stand-alone fuel gauges but I have installed that very Aerospace Logic gauge, 3 years later the owner is still very happy with it. I felt it was top shelf kit but the calibration procedure was beyond tedious. New senders were not available for the 177B so I sent both out for repair at the same time. I wouldn't mind having one myself. It does add both measured tanks to give total
 
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I can get the magnetic senders from Spruce as well. No need trying to use the old senders with a new gauge and I have to remove the tanks anyway. I helped with a different fuel gauge setup on a friend's 210 and it was beyond tedious as well.
 
I've got the Fuel Scan 450 you have pictured, in my Cherokee, and I love the thing. Once you get the thing dialed in, it is amazing. If it says I've used 41.7 gallons...by god, you've used 41.7 gallons, no more, no less! I find mine, if it is off at all, is never off more than .1 after 40 gallons. And it also has a setting to tell you what is left in your tank(s). Of course on our Cherokees, it will be divided between two tanks.
Flying with mine, I switch tanks every 5 gallons used on the FS450. That way, when I'm filled to the tabs, I technically could use each tank, in 5 gallon amounts (remember I'm starting with 18 per tank) down until my starting tank has just 3 gallons (I figure 3 gallons is a safe "don't-go-past reserve" as far as the tank is concerned). At that point, I would have 8 gallons in the remaining tank, 11 gallons total. Once you subtract unusable in the Cherokee, that leaves me with 9 gallons usable according to the manual, but I think of it as 5 gallons left, or plenty for 30 minute VFR reserve. I rarely, if ever, fly with 50 gallons, so on the few times I have, I still switch every 5 gallons and I just try to land with at least 10 gallons reserve (which according to the manual, is a usable 8).
 
bflynn said:
One of the Warriors I fly had the exact FS-450 that you showed. It was installed because the previous Warrior was lost in a fuel exhaustion accident.

How well does it work given the 2 tank system? It works great. The fuel flow system works by monitoring fuel flow through the fuel line, a new sensor is installed inline in the fuel supply system. So I terms of how well it measures the fuel consumed, it is highly accurate. It does nothing for how much you had in the first place.

The monitor is easy to use - just set the starting fuel and it counts down the amount remaining and shows the amount used.

Despite the fault that you don’t know your starting fuel to the accuracy that the sensor measures flow, I highly recommend it.
Click to expand...

But the drawback is that it shows total fuel remaining between two tanks. I would like to see the fuel remaining in each tank.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I can get the magnetic senders from Spruce as well. No need trying to use the old senders with a new gauge and I have to remove the tanks anyway. I helped with a different fuel gauge setup on a friend's 210 and it was beyond tedious as well.
Click to expand...

The aerospace logic is in a tiny machined aluminum chassis, the screen is awesome I liked it a lot. The only thing that kinda sucked is that the dimmer line doesn't work well with wire wound rheostats like these old planes typically have, I think it needs a pulse width dimmer to work like I would expect. I'll bet many LED backlighted instruments have the same issue. I think they sell a dimmer kit too, which I probably should have ordered
 
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I have a few Aerospace logic instruments. The only one I don't care for is fuel quantity. It's way too sensitive to be useful in anything but smooth air. I mostly disregard that instrument and use the FS-450 to gauge fuel used/fuel remaining. Once you dial in the K factor they are amazingly accurate.
 
Stewartb said:
I have a few Aerospace logic instruments. The only one I don't care for is fuel quantity. It's way too sensitive to be useful in anything but smooth air. I mostly disregard that instrument and use the FS-450 to gauge fuel used/fuel remaining. Once you dial in the K factor they are amazingly accurate.
Click to expand...

Stewart do you have the Aerospace logic gauge pictured above and that one is too sensitive? Did you change the senders when you changed your gauge? I want the "cons" of this too. Nothing is absolute yet.
 
Stewartb said:
I have a few Aerospace logic instruments. The only one I don't care for is fuel quantity. It's way too sensitive to be useful in anything but smooth air. I mostly disregard that instrument and use the FS-450 to gauge fuel used/fuel remaining. Once you dial in the K factor they are amazingly accurate.
Click to expand...

When did you buy that gauge? I think the one I installed was 2015. I didn't notice any wild sensitivity. I'm curious how many firmware changes there have been.
 
My instruments were installed in 2010 and were the earlier screen version. Yes, new MacFarlane transmitters went in at the same time. I don’t have any issues with the instrument itself. I have 75 gallon capacity and rarely fly with more than half tanks. With wide long range tanks and an instrument that’s calibrated in one gallon increments there’s going to be fluctuations in the readout. I had the AL instruments first. The FS-450 came after. It was necessary in my plane.

For years I’d dip my tanks with my custom marked paint stir stick and would manage fuel with a watch. After 8 years with digital fuel quantity and a fuel flow monitor I still dip my tanks. In truth I could set my fuel flow meter by my dip stick.

I know of a guy who had a fuel exhaustion accident by using only a fuel flow meter and not cross checking it. He had a fuel line leak upstream of the impeller so lost fuel not burned. He crashed. All he needed to do was notice his fuel gauges were lower than they should have been. Fuel scanners are great but don’t trust your life to one.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
But the drawback is that it shows total fuel remaining between two tanks. I would like to see the fuel remaining in each tank.
Click to expand...

Absolutely true. The FS monitor only has one number and one sensor. You're talking about a sensor in each line between the tank and the fuel selector switch. But it still won't fix the problem that the fuel flow sensor is much more accurate at measuring flow than you are in measuring the tanks. No matter which system you use, if you cannot set an accurate starting point, all you get is a guess about the ending point.

I guess I've never worried about having one empty tank on the Warrior. Total amount left is where my concern is.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Appreciate that link George. I'm going to do more research but if that is already approved for GA aircraft I'm going that direction. I have to pull the tanks anyway to replace my fuel hoses pretty soon. I can easily calculate what my fuel burn is and I don't necessarily have to know in real time. The only reason was that I would really like accurate fuel gauges and this seems to fit the bill. Has anyone explored this option?
Click to expand...
I have, it will cost 350 for 2 transducers and another 850$ for the unit that will show the readout...thats a lot of 100LL

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Stewartb said:
...I know of a guy who had a fuel exhaustion accident by using only a fuel flow meter and not cross checking it. He had a fuel line leak upstream of the impeller so lost fuel not burned. He crashed. All he needed to do was notice his fuel gauges were lower than they should have been. Fuel scanners are great but don’t trust your life to one.
Click to expand...

Exactly why I want an accurate fuel gauge more than I want fuel flow.
 
Stewartb said:
My instruments were installed in 2010 and were the earlier screen version. Yes, new MacFarlane transmitters went in at the same time. I don’t have any issues with the instrument itself. I have 75 gallon capacity and rarely fly with more than half tanks. With wide long range tanks and an instrument that’s calibrated in one gallon increments there’s going to be fluctuations in the readout. I had the AL instruments first. The FS-450 came after. It was necessary in my plane.
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I didn't even know there was an earlier version of the instrument. It looks like these came onto the market around 2004ish.

upload_2018-1-24_7-13-52.png

I did find a note about in-flight variations http://www.aerospacelogic.com/kb/article.php?id=16

I'm curious if anyone around here has a newer type instrument hooked to the magnetic CiES floats and how well they work together.
 
I would be frustrating to put in a new fuel gauge and senders and ultimately want a fuel flow too. I'm guessing panel space would quickly become an issue unless buying highly integrated all-in-one units.
 
Fuel flow has helped me diagnose a couple of engine issues. It's been every bit as important as my EDM for that. I see a value.

My Aerospace Logic fuel instrument does not have electrical issues. I can make it spaz by rocking the wings. It's more sensitive than it needs to be. Like I said, probably not an issue for you guys who routinely fill tanks. It is a problem when I routinely run them close to empty. In that fuel state the only accurate fuel instrument I have is the FS-450. I can determine how close to empty the tanks are by holding the wing high for about 30 seconds a side to see that the gauge shows an increase but the digital quantity value isn't very helpful.
 
Stewartb said:
Fuel flow has helped me diagnose a couple of engine issues. It's been every bit as important as my EDM for that. I see a value.

My Aerospace Logic fuel instrument does not have electrical issues. I can make it spaz by rocking the wings. It's more sensitive than it needs to be. Like I said, probably not an issue for you guys who routinely fill tanks. It is a problem when I routinely run them close to empty. In that fuel state the only accurate fuel instrument I have is the FS-450. I can determine how close to empty the tanks are by holding the wing high for about 30 seconds a side to see that the gauge shows an increase but the digital quantity value isn't very helpful.
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Stewartb,

Your fuel instrument does not have any issues (please read on ..). You state that you have installed it with McFarlane senders, This is the problem. Please don't get me wrong, they make fantastic senders but they are very different from the original senders. Our instruments are certified to work with the original senders NOT the McFarlane. The McFarlane will work well with the original instruments. Here is why: The original senders have a wire wound resistive element which will (theoretically) provide you with an infinite amount of sense steps. The McFarlane uses a different technology in their sensors and only have 32 discrete steps! Thus the resistance difference is huge with fuel movement on it in comparison to the original senders. This is the reason why you are seeing such a huge movement in the reported fuel quantity.

With the original (OEM) senders people routinely get the published +/- 1USG accuracy ...... all the way down to empty.

On a separate but thread related note we also have a fuel flow instrument FF200K30 and FF200K60.

Any questions just feel free to ask.
 
Funny, as I recall your instructions specified which MacFarlane transmitters to use, but maybe those instructions came from my local instrument shop that sold me the instruments. No big deal, I get what I need from it, and I have no motivation to change the transmitters at this point. I still like your products and have appreciated your customer service when you repaired my amps gauge.
 
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Shane please stick around because I'm sure to have more questions. I've decided to go with the Aerospace Logic gauge with the Cies senders, both analog. Just how much "less accurate" will they be vs digital?
 
AerospaceLogic said:
Stewartb,

Your fuel instrument does not have any issues (please read on ..). You state that you have installed it with McFarlane senders, This is the problem. Please don't get me wrong, they make fantastic senders but they are very different from the original senders. Our instruments are certified to work with the original senders NOT the McFarlane. The McFarlane will work well with the original instruments. Here is why: The original senders have a wire wound resistive element which will (theoretically) provide you with an infinite amount of sense steps. The McFarlane uses a different technology in their sensors and only have 32 discrete steps! Thus the resistance difference is huge with fuel movement on it in comparison to the original senders. This is the reason why you are seeing such a huge movement in the reported fuel quantity.

With the original (OEM) senders people routinely get the published +/- 1USG accuracy ...... all the way down to empty.

On a separate but thread related note we also have a fuel flow instrument FF200K30 and FF200K60.

Any questions just feel free to ask.
Click to expand...

I have been eyes this for a while and CEis also says this will work fine with their digital senders - http://www.aerospacelogic.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=249
 
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