FSDO customer service rant

Also... you want to know why government employees are disgruntled?

Because they have ZERO control over the hoops they have to make you jump through for stupid reasons because some clown who makes WAY more than they do makes some kneejerk reaction or tries to get promoted behind his/her "good idea."

And, because of that person's "good idea," their jobs are harder, life is more inconvenient for the public, and the employees have to deal with a public that is now more irate because of that "good idea." Then the employees have to deal with middle management that hasn't had to do the job us line animals have had to do in the last decade and a half, and demand to know why those employees aren't more productive. BECAUSE YOU WON'T LET US BE. YOU KEEP GIVING US MORE AND MORE HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH, MAKING THE PUBLIC MAD AT US, THEN YOU GET MAD AT US BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO JUMP THROUGH YOUR STUPID HOOPS *AND* DO OUR JOBS!!

Sorry. I'm having flashbacks.
 
ircphoenix said:
Also... you want to know why government employees are disgruntled?

Because they have ZERO control over the hoops they have to make you jump through for stupid reasons because some clown who makes WAY more than they do makes some kneejerk reaction or tries to get promoted behind his/her "good idea."

And, because of that person's "good idea," their jobs are harder, life is more inconvenient for the public, and the employees have to deal with a public that is now more irate because of that "good idea." Then the employees have to deal with middle management that hasn't had to do the job us line animals have had to do in the last decade and a half, and demand to know why those employees aren't more productive. BECAUSE YOU WON'T LET US BE. YOU KEEP GIVING US MORE AND MORE HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH, MAKING THE PUBLIC MAD AT US, THEN YOU GET MAD AT US BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO JUMP THROUGH YOUR STUPID HOOPS *AND* DO OUR JOBS!!

Sorry. I'm having flashbacks.
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DING, DING, DING!!!!

I only wear the uniform part time now and my day job is to manage a government run program. OH MY LORD!!!!
 
I drink beer with an inspector from the anchorage FSDO - whenever I have a flying question he always says "Right now, we're beer enthusiasts, I don't work for the FAA and you're not a pilot. Please call me during business hours."
Lol
 
I don't know. I worked for the Federal Government for years. While we had a lot of good natured complaining, I can't say I was ever disgruntled. Most of my grief was dealing with other government people. I certainly never took it out on the public. I did a lot of "better to ask forgiveness than permission" tactics when helping people, though....and in the words of my long time ATC friends "They can't fire us all."
 
We have infiltrated and secured the FSDO. The Imperialist Yankee Dogs have been brought to their knees.
 
Just the ones who wouldn't go back to work.
 
ircphoenix said:
Also... you want to know why government employees are disgruntled?

Because they have ZERO control over the hoops they have to make you jump through for stupid reasons because some clown who makes WAY more than they do makes some kneejerk reaction or tries to get promoted behind his/her "good idea."

And, because of that person's "good idea," their jobs are harder, life is more inconvenient for the public, and the employees have to deal with a public that is now more irate because of that "good idea." Then the employees have to deal with middle management that hasn't had to do the job us line animals have had to do in the last decade and a half, and demand to know why those employees aren't more productive. BECAUSE YOU WON'T LET US BE. YOU KEEP GIVING US MORE AND MORE HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH, MAKING THE PUBLIC MAD AT US, THEN YOU GET MAD AT US BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO JUMP THROUGH YOUR STUPID HOOPS *AND* DO OUR JOBS!!

Sorry. I'm having flashbacks.
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I understand, but being polite and courteous requires no hoop jumping.
 
MAKG1 said:
That is lingering fallout from 9/11, and it is not at all limited to the FSDO.

You used to be able to enter a BASEBALL GAME without getting wanded.
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He didn't say anything about getting wanded. He said he couldn't get in without an appointment. Big difference.
 
Clark1961 said:
He didn't say anything about getting wanded. He said he couldn't get in without an appointment. Big difference.
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I can't get into my doctor's office without an appointment either. If that's really all he's complaining about, that's classic whining. Take a number.

The real complaint was about excessive security. If you don't see the parallel, I doubt I can help you understand it.
 
I have never had a bad experience when I have called.. I am always nervous when I call for some reason though.. they are like the DMV lol.... I did have to call and ask a lot of what I am sure was repetitive questions, when I commercially registered my 2 drones (N#'s) They were actually extremely nice and helpful!
 
It seems as if most of the OP's complaint was about the lecturing attitude of the inspector. The OP also stated

Walk-ins are not allowed due to "security."
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But that isn't really true, at least regarding the Denver FSDO. There was increased security long before walk-ins were not allowed. They stopped allowing walk-ins two or three years ago because of staffing problems.
 
ircphoenix said:
Also... you want to know why government employees are disgruntled?

Because they have ZERO control over the hoops they have to make you jump through for stupid reasons because some clown who makes WAY more than they do makes some kneejerk reaction or tries to get promoted behind his/her "good idea."

And, because of that person's "good idea," their jobs are harder, life is more inconvenient for the public, and the employees have to deal with a public that is now more irate because of that "good idea." Then the employees have to deal with middle management that hasn't had to do the job us line animals have had to do in the last decade and a half, and demand to know why those employees aren't more productive. BECAUSE YOU WON'T LET US BE. YOU KEEP GIVING US MORE AND MORE HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH, MAKING THE PUBLIC MAD AT US, THEN YOU GET MAD AT US BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO JUMP THROUGH YOUR STUPID HOOPS *AND* DO OUR JOBS!!

Sorry. I'm having flashbacks.
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That is not entirely true. Yes, the government creates a lot of hoops you jump through, but you find federal employees that put forth the effort to aside people in navigating through those hoops while others use the hoops to deflect any actual work so they can continue to BS while they place their Amazon orders and update their Facebook pages.
 
MAKG1 said:
I can't get into my doctor's office without an appointment either. If that's really all he's complaining about, that's classic whining. Take a number.

The real complaint was about excessive security. If you don't see the parallel, I doubt I can help you understand it.
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Hmmm, a doctor is an individual offering a service to the public. A FSDO is a government office. You are 100% correct, I will never see the parallel because it isn't there.
 
MAKG1 said:
I can't get into my doctor's office without an appointment either. If that's really all he's complaining about, that's classic whining. Take a number.

The real complaint was about excessive security. If you don't see the parallel, I doubt I can help you understand it.
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I can go to my doctor's office, walk through the door during office hours, and speak to the receptionist/nurse without an appointment. I may even get to wait around and see the doctor depending on why I'm there and his/her schedule. I can't even get past the door without an appointment at the FSDO. How exactly does having an appointment enhance security? Do they station an armed security guard behind a two way mirror during appointments that they wouldn't have available for walk-ins? Does making an appointment give them the opportunity to do a background check on visitors? I'm not getting it. If they are too busy to see walk-ins and require an appointment to manage their time more efficiently, fine, but don't call it "security."
 
Honestly, most of my experiences with FAA employees have been positive ones. Sure, I've had a few negative ones. I've also had negative experiences in my day job, my hobbies, pretty much every aspect of life.
 
Clark1961 said:
Hmmm, a doctor is an individual offering a service to the public. A FSDO is a government office. You are 100% correct, I will never see the parallel because it isn't there.
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If you can't see it, that doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you don't understand it.

Just how many doctors do you know who act as individuals? That's EXTREMELY rare. Most are part of a much larger organization, that does indeed function as a gatekeeper, JUST like the complaint here. Good luck talking to a cardiologist without an appointment AND prior permission.
 
mulligan said:
Cops love hearing this. You should try it some time on one :p
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I have. I told the mouthy cop that I would gladly listen to his lecture, or gladly take a ticket, but I wouldn't do both. He handed me my ticket and I was on my way. It was dumb and cost me money because I don't think he was gonna write the ticket. However, he caught me on "that day"....But hey, I showed him, right?;)
 
Unfortunately, it really depends on which yokel you get. You might get lucky and run into a nice person or you might not.
Just like in all jobs in life, there are nice people and there are not.
Sorry to hear about your FSDO experience but it is not unique, it was not first and it sure as heck won't be last. :)
Don't ask about my FSDO call where I couldn't understand the callee simply because he sounded like a total hick. If you work in a federal office and need to interface with the public, at least try to speak like a human. I don't mind that you're from A or B. I just need to talk to you. And the official language is (or at least used to be) English.
 
MAKG1 said:
If you can't see it, that doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you don't understand it.

Just how many doctors do you know who act as individuals? That's EXTREMELY rare.
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Particularly after Obamacare. It's essentially impossible now.
 
MAKG1 said:
If you can't see it, that doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you don't understand it.

Just how many doctors do you know who act as individuals? That's EXTREMELY rare. Most are part of a much larger organization, that does indeed function as a gatekeeper, JUST like the complaint here. Good luck talking to a cardiologist without an appointment AND prior permission.
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Are you just going to keep digging the hole deeper?
 
Witmo said:
If I don't have to go to the FSDO, why did the Ops Inspector at the FSDO tell me to make an appointment and go in person? Why didn't he just say fill out the form and send it to (wherever). The second page of the 8710 does not indicate where the form gets submitted. Even the IRS which is not known to be perfectly clear on filling out tax forms, clearly says what the disposition of their forms is. No where in my study of the ground instructor subject matter was there any discussion of the process nor were there any questions on the ground instructor tests on IACRA, forms 8710 or any other process related questions. I asked a simple question and all I got was attitude. If I were to treat a student similarly, I doubt I'd be seen as any good kind of instructor.

Apparently there's another possible course of action. Contact and pay a DPE to input the 8710 into the system. Funny mr ops didn't mention that possibility. Perhaps he just wants another opportunity to lecture me in person.
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Did he really lecture you or just give you the correct information ?

If you told me you wanted to add an Instructor Certificate to your Private Pilot Certificate, I would correct you also.

You really don't know what happens to an 8710 after an applicant fills it out ? might want to figure that out before you become an instructor.

I see you figured out you can also go to a DPE. Like it says on the 8710 "Designated Examiner or Airman Certification Representative Report".

I'm honestly at a loss at why you need step by step instructions for this. Comply with the reg, fill out the 8710, have the 8710 signed by DE or ACR, done.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is not entirely true. Yes, the government creates a lot of hoops you jump through, but you find federal employees that put forth the effort to aside people in navigating through those hoops while others use the hoops to deflect any actual work so they can continue to BS while they place their Amazon orders and update their Facebook pages.
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This is also very true.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
 
Witmo said:
Thanks for finding the reference. Never heard of or had occasion to read the Flight Standards Information Management Systems document and I've been flying for over 35 years.
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I'm sure you've seen the phrase "in a manner acceptable to the administrator" or "in a manner (or form) prescribed by the administrator" or similar verbiage in the FARs. Order 8900.1 and other FAA orders as well as Advisory Circulars are where you can usually find what has been determined to be acceptable.
 
jaybee said:
Did he really lecture you or just give you the correct information ?.
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I think I know when I'm being lectured.
jaybee said:
If you told me you wanted to add an Instructor Certificate to your Private Pilot Certificate, I would correct you also..
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Yes, he corrected my misuse of the term "license" instead of certificate and the fact that it would be a separate certificate. I accept that correction of terminology. Still, you can offer a correction without basically calling someone a dumb$ht.
jaybee said:
You really don't know what happens to an 8710 after an applicant fills it out ? might want to figure that out before you become an instructor..
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Hence the question to the FSDO before being made an instructor. I'm glad you're in agreement.
jaybee said:
I see you figured out you can also go to a DPE. Like it says on the 8710 "Designated Examiner or Airman Certification Representative Report" .

I'm honestly at a loss at why you need step by step instructions for this. Comply with the reg, fill out the 8710, have the 8710 signed by DE or ACR, done..
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It's not intuitively obvious that an application for Ground Instructor requires an Ops Inspector or DPE to review the application with the applicant in person since there is no oral or practical test involved as there are with checkrides. It's strictly an adminiistrative review of paperwork. All I needed was a simple answer to a simple question, not a dissertation on how I could have and should have intuited the answer myself.
 
ircphoenix said:
I can tell from this quote here exactly the type of person you are. Alright tough guy. LoL
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Right. The kind that doesn't take **** from the "help."

Lotta sheeple around here.
 
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Witmo said:
I think I know when I'm being lectured.

Yes, he corrected my misuse of the term "license" instead of certificate and the fact that it would be a separate certificate. I accept that correction of terminology. Still, you can offer a correction without basically calling someone a dumb$ht.

Hence the question to the FSDO before being made an instructor. I'm glad you're in agreement.

It's not intuitively obvious that an application for Ground Instructor requires an Ops Inspector or DPE to review the application with the applicant in person since there is no oral or practical test involved as there are with checkrides. It's strictly an adminiistrative review of paperwork. All I needed was a simple answer to a simple question, not a dissertation on how I could have and should have intuited the answer myself.
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I'm not a betting man but I would bet you were as argumentative with the FAA guy as you are here. I don't believe the FAA guy was snotty or otherwise, it sounds like you are butt hurt because service didn't happen in the manner you wanted it to happen. There is nothing to deduce from the 8710 other than someone has to sign it other than the applicant and do you really need someone to tell you that someone other than the applicant has to sign it ? I'm honestly just flabbergasted here.
 
jaybee said:
I'm not a betting man but I would bet you were as argumentative with the FAA guy as you are here. I don't believe the FAA guy was snotty or otherwise, it sounds like you are butt hurt because service didn't happen in the manner you wanted it to happen. There is nothing to deduce from the 8710 other than someone has to sign it other than the applicant and do you really need someone to tell you that someone other than the applicant has to sign it ? I'm honestly just flabbergasted here.
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You can think what you want. I really don't give a rat's a$$. I had a simple question and if that flabbergasts you that anyone might not know instinctively that a personal appearance was necessary to have someone qc and sign a form then you must not get around much. I've had my rant now so you be sure to have a good day.
 
Witmo said:
You can think what you want. I really don't give a rat's a$$. I had a simple question and if that flabbergasts you that anyone might not know instinctively that a personal appearance was necessary to have someone qc and sign a form then you must not get around much. I've had my rant now so you be sure to have a good day.
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Don't let it get to you. It's just typical POA. If you had posted that you had an absolutely awesome experience with the FSDO, you'd have just as many people accusing you of smoking crack.

It's just the Internet.
 
Any of you been to a Social Security office lately? Ours has an armed guard at the entrance and when you finally get in the back to talk to someone it is through bullet proof glass. Don
 
Fearless Tower said:
Don't let it get to you. It's just typical POA. If you had posted that you had an absolutely awesome experience with the FSDO, you'd have just as many people accusing you of smoking crack.

It's just the Internet.
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Thanks for the reminder. :)
 
jaybee said:
I'm not a betting man but I would bet you were as argumentative with the FAA guy as you are here. I don't believe the FAA guy was snotty or otherwise, it sounds like you are butt hurt because service didn't happen in the manner you wanted it to happen. There is nothing to deduce from the 8710 other than someone has to sign it other than the applicant and do you really need someone to tell you that someone other than the applicant has to sign it ? I'm honestly just flabbergasted here.
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Witmo's a good guy and I seriously doubt he would have been rude. That FSDO has that kind of reputation all over the region and I'm just surprised he even tried. Other FSDOs are much easier to work with. I just hope he doesn't experience some kind of harassment for posting about it online.
 
Call a FSDO. Ask a moderately tough FAA policy question. Then call another one, in another part of the country. If, after five calls, you have less than three distinct answers, you are a lucky person. They couldn't find their a** with both hands and a road map.

Heck, different groups within FAA don't talk to each other; they run fiefdoms, using NIH and risk avoidance to prevent progress. Not to be specific, and muck-up someone's now on-going effort, but a non-FAA stakeholder group has had to explain to one FAA group what another FAA entity was doing. . .
 
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