FSDO customer service rant

Witmo

Witmo

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Tim
Had a question in the morning concerning adding ground instructor to a certificate so I called our local FSDO. Had to leave a message because everyone was apparently too busy to answer the phone. Later that day an ops inspector returned my call. When I asked him what I needed to do to add a ground instructor rating to my "license," he proceeded to lecture me on the difference between a "certificate" and a "license." Then he admonished me to go to faa.gov and all the information is "clearly posted." After I mentioned that there is no explanation of the process other than some sample questions for the required tests and a pointer to IACRA, I asked what then? He then told me I needed to be familiar with this process in order to be an instructor and then he lectured me on knowing all of Parts 61, 91, 141 etc. He finally told me I needed to make an appointment at the FSDO after completing IACRA.

No wonder they don't have any time to answer the phone as they are too busy lecturing instead of answering civil questions. He spent 95% of the time berating me for not knowing "the process" and expecting to be an instructor. I suppose I'll just tell students when they ask a question that they are going to be pilots and are expected to know this stuff without any help. I'll just point them to the regulation and tell them: the answers you seek are all here, now stop bothering me."

Another observation I have is the FAA appears to be extremely security conscious for a government institution serving the public. Walk-ins are not allowed due to "security." You have to make an appointment before being allowed into the hallowed halls of a FSDO. What makes them so needful of "security." I can walk into just about any other public government office without an appointment but not a FSDO. Are they all playing foosball and drinking beer during office hours and they need time to sanitize the place before visitors?
 
Witmo said:
Another observation I have is the FAA appears to be extremely security conscious for a government institution serving the public. Walk-ins are not allowed due to "security." You have to make an appointment before being allowed into the hallowed halls of a FSDO. What makes them so needful of "security." I can walk into just about any other public government office without an appointment but not a FSDO.
Click to expand...

I've wondered about that too.
 
I tried calling my FSDO to see about getting a few Aircraft Registration Application, AC Form 8050-1s. I was told I would have to make an appointment. I asked with whom I should make an appointment. The person to whom I was speaking said with the admin person who was out of the office for an unspecified period. I asked if anyone else could help me. I was told I would have to call back when the admin returned.

I emailed OKC and they sent me ten blank forms in the mail.
 
I find FSDO peeps to be no different than anyone else in aviation. You've got some great ones, some crappy ones, and everything in between. Looks like you got a crappy one. :(
 
Witmo said:
Another observation I have is the FAA appears to be extremely security conscious for a government institution serving the public. Walk-ins are not allowed due to "security." You have to make an appointment before being allowed into the hallowed halls of a FSDO. What makes them so needful of "security." I can walk into just about any other public government office without an appointment but not a FSDO. Are they all playing foosball and drinking beer during office hours and they need time to sanitize the place before visitors?
Click to expand...

That is lingering fallout from 9/11, and it is not at all limited to the FSDO.

You used to be able to enter a BASEBALL GAME without getting wanded.
 
Have you paid attention government bureaucracies lately? Welcome to the glorious US government.
 
mikeinbama said:
Haha.... You said FSDO and customer service in the same sentence.
Click to expand...

This.

In a previous job (management consulting) I was asked to do a "customer relationship management" project for the IRS. I declined and informed them that the IRS has victims not customers.
 
61.213 spells out the requirements and you apply to be an airman the same way as any other rating with an 8710.

I hate to ruin a good rant but taking two writtens (or one if you are a flight instructor or a teacher) and making a 8710 IACRA application is some pretty basic stuff.
 
Before 9/11 the Oakland FSDO used to be in one of the old original buildings at the airport and you could just walk right in any time you pleased. Then they moved to the new place which is off field in a business park. I don't think you can even get there by airplane, you'd have to get a cab. Then you need an appointment before they let you through the airlock, the metal detector and past the bulletproof glass.
 
I've had some good experiences with FSDOs, had a good ASI do my initial CFI, later was the guy who I got my gold seal through, I've met some azz holes too, just people.

The security paranoia is a little odd though.
 
You can walk into our FSDO without an appointment but you can't get beyond the front desk. In Scottsdale they stood behind some glass like at shady gas stations but you could still walk in any time.
 
ATL FSDO is like a fortress. Located a few miles away from ATL airport. Tall (Trump style?) chain link fence around it, guard at the entrance gate. You ain't getting in w/o an appointment.
 
I am inclined to agree with your FSDO; if you are going to instruct you should know how to look things up in the Federal Aviation Regulations. A large part of my email communication is answering questions like yours. As an instructor it will be your job to answer them.

I have had nothing but positive experience with the Van Nuys, Riverside and San Jose FSDO.

If they don’t have the answer they will look it up.

When I was time to inspect a major change on my experimental (more powerful engine and different propeller) the Van Nuys FSDO sent up two representatives all the way to Santa Maria to perform the inspection. They were generous in the way they wrote the phase one requirements and operating limitations.

They recently handled a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA) and reworded it when I questioned some of the language.

One of the best speakers we have at our FAST meetings is from the Van Nuys FSDO.

The Van Nuys FSDO is working on a medical check ride for a class II medical and because there are so few in the FAA familiar with gyroplanes they are sending someone out from Oklahoma for two days.
 
jaybee said:
61.213 spells out the requirements and you apply to be an airman the same way as any other rating with an 8710.

I hate to ruin a good rant but taking two writtens (or one if you are a flight instructor or a teacher) and making a 8710 IACRA application is some pretty basic stuff.
Click to expand...
True, but nowhere in the regs does it say to make an appointment with the FSDO once your 8710 is completed...maybe the question could've been better phrased, but there are definitely parts of the "process" that aren't specifically spelled out.
 
jaybee said:
61.213 spells out the requirements and you apply to be an airman the same way as any other rating with an 8710.

I hate to ruin a good rant but taking two writtens (or one if you are a flight instructor or a teacher) and making a 8710 IACRA application is some pretty basic stuff.
Click to expand...

Even if it is basic stuff, the point is that FAA employees' only job is to administer, enforce, and assist with FAA licenses and regulations. They are paid good salaries, benefits, pensions, etc. to do this. Answering basic, "dumb", questions is part of any job that serves the public. Basic customer service practice (and common courtesy) says, take care of the customers, e.g., if the admin aide is not available, take a note and put it on his/her desk. If the office is really slammed at a given time and you truly can't help, let the customer know, most people understand situations like this. I used to work for the govt (a large state university) and I never forgot who I was working for - the students.
 
What could possibly require security at an FSDO? Its not like those who are going to do harm are going to force their way in demanding their registration is updated ASAP because they want to be legal when they fly their plane into something.
 
Silvaire said:
Before 9/11 the Oakland FSDO used to be in one of the old original buildings at the airport and you could just walk right in any time you pleased. Then they moved to the new place which is off field in a business park. I don't think you can even get there by airplane, you'd have to get a cab. Then you need an appointment before they let you through the airlock, the metal detector and past the bulletproof glass.
Click to expand...
Same same with the SEA FSDO, once upon a time the FSDO was right there on Parimeter road at BFI. now they are off airport in Renton near the intersection of 405 and 165 and they won't even open the door with out an appointment. Nice thing about being an IA, you have your own man at FSDO, and I have him on speed dial. :)
 
So how did this happen after 9/11? Was there some sweeping knee-jerk reaction that every federal office needed to beef up security, and the FSDOs just kind of fell underneath that? I can't imagine anyone thought FSDOs specifically would be under threat.
 
The KC FSDO also has ridiculous security policies, but someone was smart enough to start leaving a good stack of blank Registration Forms at the security desk so you can just walk in and get them without needing an appointment.
 
kayoh190 said:
So how did this happen after 9/11? Was there some sweeping knee-jerk reaction that every federal office needed to beef up security, and the FSDOs just kind of fell underneath that? I can't imagine anyone thought FSDOs specifically would be under threat.
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Pretty much, yes. When the Boss tells everyone to be scared and beef up security for the evil boogeymen, the workers do what they are told (and grumble about it under their breath, 'cause everyone knows it's stupid).
 
MAKG1 said:
That is lingering fallout from 9/11, and it is not at all limited to the FSDO.

You used to be able to enter a BASEBALL GAME without getting wanded.
Click to expand...

Home of the brave and land of the free.......not.
 
Oddly, I've not had much problem with the IAD FSDO. While they won't let you into the inner sanctum, they have a small conference table out in the lobby and the inspector will come out and deal with your paperwork there. No problems with walk ins most times either.
 
MauleSkinner said:
True, but nowhere in the regs does it say to make an appointment with the FSDO once your 8710 is completed...maybe the question could've been better phrased, but there are definitely parts of the "process" that aren't specifically spelled out.
Click to expand...

Whats it say on page 2 of the 8710 ?

what normally happens after an applicant fills out an 8710 ?

I'm sorry we're not talking about a student pilot going for their first ride here. This isn't rocket surgery, all the required information is on the 8710 form.

PS - hint, you don't have to go to the FSDO...
 
edo2000 said:
Even if it is basic stuff, the point is that FAA employees' only job is to administer, enforce, and assist with FAA licenses and regulations. They are paid good salaries, benefits, pensions, etc. to do this. Answering basic, "dumb", questions is part of any job that serves the public. Basic customer service practice (and common courtesy) says, take care of the customers, e.g., if the admin aide is not available, take a note and put it on his/her desk. If the office is really slammed at a given time and you truly can't help, let the customer know, most people understand situations like this. I used to work for the govt (a large state university) and I never forgot who I was working for - the students.
Click to expand...

We are only hearing one side of the story.

It sounds to me like, in typical FAA employee fashion, the guy was being excessively thorough and the OP was being impatient.
 
Also, he got the lecture because as a Private Pilot he is not adding to his certificate. A Ground Instructor would be a whole new certificate.

I agree, if you want to be an instructor you should know that you are obtaining a new certificate (Instructor) not adding a rating to your existing certificate (Private Pilot).

After all the OP didn't ADD A&P to his Private did he ? Seems as though the lecture was warranted. Might want to take a deep breath, relax and try learn something instead of getting all huffy and closed minded because service didn't come in the manner you expected it.
 
Vance Breese said:
I am inclined to agree with your FSDO; if you are going to instruct you should know how to look things up in the Federal Aviation Regulations. A large part of my email communication is answering questions like yours. As an instructor it will be your job to answer them.

I have had nothing but positive experience with the Van Nuys, Riverside and San Jose FSDO.

If they don’t have the answer they will look it up.

When I was time to inspect a major change on my experimental (more powerful engine and different propeller) the Van Nuys FSDO sent up two representatives all the way to Santa Maria to perform the inspection. They were generous in the way they wrote the phase one requirements and operating limitations.

They recently handled a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA) and reworded it when I questioned some of the language.

One of the best speakers we have at our FAST meetings is from the Van Nuys FSDO.

The Van Nuys FSDO is working on a medical check ride for a class II medical and because there are so few in the FAA familiar with gyroplanes they are sending someone out from Oklahoma for two days.
Click to expand...
Not all FSDOs are equal. I've worked with some really outstanding, helpful people at the FAA and come across others acting just like the OP described. Yes, the OP should be able to look stuff up, but that isn't a reason for a Federal employee to act like a jackass.
 
Sorry, I don't abide "lectures" from someone whose paycheck/generous benefits and pension is derived from funds confiscated from my earned income.
 
jaybee said:
Whats it say on page 2 of the 8710 ?

what normally happens after an applicant fills out an 8710 ?

I'm sorry we're not talking about a student pilot going for their first ride here. This isn't rocket surgery, all the required information is on the 8710 form.

PS - hint, you don't have to go to the FSDO...
Click to expand...
So...the Fed says he should know...you say all the required info is on the 8710...the Fed says he has to make an appointment at the FSDO...you say you don't have to go to the FSDO...there's nothing on the back of the 8710 that tells you who can issue the certificate/rating.

Sounds like the people "in the know" disagree...maybe it's not as clear as it should be.
 
jaybee said:
Whats it say on page 2 of the 8710 ?

what normally happens after an applicant fills out an 8710 ?

I'm sorry we're not talking about a student pilot going for their first ride here. This isn't rocket surgery, all the required information is on the 8710 form.

PS - hint, you don't have to go to the FSDO...
Click to expand...
If I don't have to go to the FSDO, why did the Ops Inspector at the FSDO tell me to make an appointment and go in person? Why didn't he just say fill out the form and send it to (wherever). The second page of the 8710 does not indicate where the form gets submitted. Even the IRS which is not known to be perfectly clear on filling out tax forms, clearly says what the disposition of their forms is. No where in my study of the ground instructor subject matter was there any discussion of the process nor were there any questions on the ground instructor tests on IACRA, forms 8710 or any other process related questions. I asked a simple question and all I got was attitude. If I were to treat a student similarly, I doubt I'd be seen as any good kind of instructor.

Apparently there's another possible course of action. Contact and pay a DPE to input the 8710 into the system. Funny mr ops didn't mention that possibility. Perhaps he just wants another opportunity to lecture me in person.
 
kayoh190 said:
So how did this happen after 9/11? Was there some sweeping knee-jerk reaction that every federal office needed to beef up security, and the FSDOs just kind of fell underneath that? I can't imagine anyone thought FSDOs specifically would be under threat.
Click to expand...
Actually the first push to beef up security around Federal buildings was after the OKC bombing. At that time they put concrete barriers in the first row of parking at the FSS at KAPA. They also closed the parking area under the tower. I always figured the increased security at the Denver FSDO was because they are co-located with TRACON, but I guess it's that way in other places too.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not all FSDOs are equal. I've worked with some really outstanding, helpful people at the FAA and come across others acting just like the OP described. Yes, the OP should be able to look stuff up, but that isn't a reason for a Federal employee to act like a jackass.
Click to expand...
I don't have any problem looking up a reg but the information I requested is not in any reg and is not on the FAA.gov website. If it is, someone please cite so I can offer an apology to the poor, overworked FAA employee, I undoubtedly criticized in error. I agree, instructors should be all knowing. I'm hoping the Holy Spirit visits me prior to my appointment to fill any gaps in my knowledge so I will be ready to answer any query with disdain since that is the approved FAA instructional technique.
 
Witmo said:
...I asked a simple question and all I got was attitude. If I were to treat a student similarly, I doubt I'd be seen as any good kind of instructor.

Apparently there's another possible course of action. Contact and pay a DPE to input the 8710 into the system. Funny mr ops didn't mention that possibility. Perhaps he just wants another opportunity to lecture me in person.
Click to expand...
This kind of thing is one of my pet peeves. Similar to the Dept. of Motor Vehicles in my home town. The folks behind the counter honestly don't want to help. They are visibly happier if they can turn you away for one reason or another. Almost every town now has privately owned and operated "DMV Express" offices, which basically do the job of the DMV for an additional fee. The DMV Express people are getting paid less and don't get govt benefits, but are always efficient and friendly.... probably because they want more business. We are paying the salaries of large groups of people who seem to want mostly to just frustrate us enough that we will go away and leave them alone. My belief is, if you take a paycheck to assist people, then do it to the best of your ability.
 
The LIT FSDO is often like a morgue. The three times I've been there hasn't been more then two or three people in the entire place. The only issue I've with the place is not the FSDO but the airport itself. You can taxi right up to their back door, but your not allowed to stay in or next to your plane. The airport security officers have made it quite clear your not allowed next to or sitting in your aircraft without a badge or an escort. We had a CFI student get into trouble for sitting on the wing waiting for the FSDO to open as he got there a bit early. He was escorted to the FBO and told that he had to be picked up by the FAA.
 
Everskyward said:
Actually the first push to beef up security around Federal buildings was after the OKC bombing. At that time they put concrete barriers in the first row of parking at the FSS at KAPA. They also closed the parking area under the tower. I always figured the increased security at the Denver FSDO was because they are co-located with TRACON, but I guess it's that way in other places too.
Click to expand...

I was thinking that this was the case. I used to go over to the ATL FSDO to reinstate my CFI and had to make an appointment, but it was before 9-11 I think.
 
While I understand your frustration....

jaybee said:
61.213 spells out the requirements and you apply to be an airman the same way as any other rating with an 8710.

I hate to ruin a good rant but taking two writtens (or one if you are a flight instructor or a teacher) and making a 8710 IACRA application is some pretty basic stuff.
Click to expand...

I'm definitely gonna have to agree with this. I'm gonna take a wild guess that you called the San Antonio FSDO. How did you get the number? Cause looking on their website, right under the phone number it says, "Office visits by appointment only with photo I.D."

Each FSDO is different. When I wanted to add the Beechjet type rating to my cert. a midwest FSDO inspector was very nice. I asked if I needed an appointment and he said, "Nope! Someone will be here during our business hours. Stop by any time." As I walked in, one of the inspectors asked if I needed help with anything. Told him what I wanted, he logged into the receptionists computer cause she was away for a few minutes and looked at my docs while he logged into IACRA and printed my cert. One of the nicest FAA guys I have met. On the other hand, going to the Philly FSDO to get the DC-10 type, one of the maintenance inspectors let me in the ops office and told the receptionist to help me, super funny and nice guy. Lady got one of the ops inspectors. Calm and actually nice, but he must have told me a dozen times that I should have made an appointment and to tell all my friends to call and make an appointment first.
 
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