From the . . . "I'm here to help" file

comanchepilot

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Joe Farrell, yeah, him
I received an FAA FAAST/WINGS seminar notification. It was about learning about Skew-T. I was interested and sent an email to the FAA contact. I will be out of the country when they are holding the seminar. Here is the our conversation:

me:
"Hello - any chance I can get any handouts / course materials for the Skew-T seminar when they become available - will not be able to attend. Thanks"

FAA response:
"We are unable to do that."

Ok then. So much for fulfilling your mission of pilot education.

My response back:
"It's a government document, right?

"Then consider this an FOIA request for it."

arsehole.
 
Your tax dollars at work... not.

You would think these people would understand they are public servants.
 
Is skew-T patented? There is some info, some videos around now but there was a time no one wanted to talk to you about it unless you went to a paid-for course.
 
Another thing to consider - The Feds may not actually own/have the materials. I've put on presentations at FAAST seminars, and the material I presented was mine, not the FAA's.
 
Is the presenter from the FAA or a FAASTeam rep? If a rep, send him or her an email. I know that if I received an email asking for that, I'd send a copy of my materials, so long as some non-FAA copyright did not prevent me.

(Of course, in some cases having the materials doesn't help that much. It might be nothing more than a good PowerPoint- "good" meaning nothing more than a graphic outline that needs explanation to be meaningful)
 
It's too much work to do that...haven't you seen the way government workers labor at the DMV?
 
Another thing to consider - The Feds may not actually own/have the materials.

This. Of the dozens of safety meetings I've attended, only a very small number were given by government employees (ATC, NTSB, FSDO). The FAAST Team is promoting an event, not actually providing the content, so it isn't their material to give out.
 
Another thing to consider - The Feds may not actually own/have the materials. I've put on presentations at FAAST seminars, and the material I presented was mine, not the FAA's.
Did you get paid by the FAA? If so - your materials belong to the taxpayers now . . . . its how it works. Unless you have signed a written specific agreement [boilerplate does not work] approved by OMB that lets you keep the copyright to your documents.

To answer the questions- it was obviously not an FAA employee. But his attitude was so dismissive and so rude - so I asked him for his FSDO contact person - because one of us is going to learn an important lesson. Might be me - I've been wrong before- not about this stuff - but there is always a first time.

FAA WINGS sets up these seminars - they pay the presenters - rendering the documents discoverable under FOIA. I did not want to be a total jerk but he yanked my chain by repsonding like a little twerp so I gonna yank his back even harder.

You have a FREE seminar at which I would receive certain materials for attending. I asked for a copy of those documents. Why the attitude? If he's trying to get students and is offering to put on the seminar for free - the opportunity cost means he has been no different than if the FAA offered him $250 to make the presentation.
 
Did you get paid by the FAA? If so - your materials belong to the taxpayers now . . . . its how it works. Unless you have signed a written specific agreement [boilerplate does not work] approved by OMB that lets you keep the copyright to your documents.
If the material is proprietary, the Government is limited as to how they can distribute it. I labelled a lot of engineering reports "XXXX Proprietary" because company-funded IR&D work was incorporated, even though the Government was paying for the overall project. The title pages always included a requirement for company approval for any distribution.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Did you get paid by the FAA? If so - your materials belong to the taxpayers now . . . . its how it works.
Paid? By the FAA? I've been doing seminars for Wings credit for more than 10 years. Some sponsored by FAASTeam. Some sponsored by private organizations but approved for Wings credit. Sometimes using my own materials (which legally belong to me). Sometimes using the FAA's materials. Sometimes using materials licensed by a third party. And I know some organizations charge for their Wings credit seminars.

But so far, your post is the first time I've heard about Wings seminars being paid for the FAA.
 
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arsehole.

Im certain that's exactly what the person you had this exchange with was thinking.

As others mentioned, this is not an FAA presented seminar, and the FAA does not pay a dime to put these on. They help promote this events in the interest of aviation safety and give wings credit, that's about it.

If you reach out to the presenter they may or may not share the presentation. A PowerPoint without context may not be particularly helpful, and could even be hazardous if someone misinterprets the information provided. If you want to learn the material, register and show up to the seminar. Your FOIA request is absurd.
 
My response back:
"It's a government document, right?
Why didn't you post their response to this question? Your story hinges on an answer in the affirmative, but that is very likely not how they answered and/or not the correct answer. But I suppose it made you feel better.

Nauga,
who has retained a lot of rights
 
Did you get paid by the FAA? If so - your materials belong to the taxpayers now . . . . its how it works.

No. FAA doesn't pay anybody for holding Wings seminars. Nobody who I've known who gave one, anyway.

Usually you're holding the seminar for your own reasons, and apply for Wings credits to be applied because it'll maybe attract a few more people who want the credits. Or you see value in the Wings system overall and want to support it.

Wings is as voluntary on the other side of the podium as it is on the student side, for the most part.

For your effort in applying and getting approved to give credits, you probably get to pay for the venue, pay for any snacks or drinks offered, work for free on the materials, pay for printing handouts if you use them, pay any staff that help set up or tear down if it's held at an aviation business (or find your own volunteers), and get to do all the online paperwork of entering each attendee's credits for a few hours then next day. If you're lucky, a non-FAA FAASTeam volunteer CFI or two will help with the paperwork.

The material may be your material and certainly isn't government property before, during, or after the seminar.

If I were doing all that work to put on an in-person seminar, and you called up and said you couldn't make it, I'd tell you when the next one was scheduled, and say we'll look forward to seeing you then. Bye.

There are online seminars also approved for Wings credit. Same deal... you get to pay for the online conferencing service, not FAA. EAA's seminars are an example of this. Their presenters retain the rights to their materials in those, too. Various "big names, do presentations of their copyrighted presentation materials all the time through them.

Seriously, your attitude is quite entitled on this.

Show up, attend online, or buy an offline course. Wings credit or not, doesn't matter. No author of a seminar is required to any more than present the material at the seminar.

I bet your email stating it was an FOIA request got deleted about ten seconds after it was read. And all you'll do is annoy the FSDO Rep when you contact them.
 
Why didn't you post their response to this question? Your story hinges on an answer in the affirmative, but that is very likely not how they answered and/or not the correct answer. But I suppose it made you feel better.

Nauga,
who has retained a lot of rights
Because there wasn't one.

Look - I asked nicely for a document that will be handed out at publicly available seminar. It's not a secret document - and even assuming its copyrighted - I'm not asking anyone to violate their own copyright. I'm asking for a copy of what they were already gong to hand out publicly.

Again - You're putting on a seminar. It's educational. Someone contacts you and says "I can't make your seminar, can I see your materials."

The response was not 'hey, they're not going to be helpful without the presentation,' it was "I can't do that."

Why not? Whats the big deal?

Fine - everyone here thinks this request is out of line - and thats ok. I'm not offended by anyone elses opinion. But communication is the solution to all problems- and starting out with 'no' after a nice request and no further effort is not exactly being open and welcoming. You put on a FREE seminar, and you are handing out documents - then its not secret. You're not charging for them- you likely have a .ppt or a PDF of the document - no one is asking you to do anything other than send an email with that document.

You want to preserve your copyright ? So what are you having people sign at the seminar to do that?

Yeah, I'm the arsehole for thinking that a free public presentation marketed by the government contains a document that is public. Sorry.
 
Because there wasn't one.

Look - I asked nicely for a document that will be handed out at publicly available seminar. It's not a secret document - and even assuming its copyrighted - I'm not asking anyone to violate their own copyright. I'm asking for a copy of what they were already gong to hand out publicly.

Again - You're putting on a seminar. It's educational. Someone contacts you and says "I can't make your seminar, can I see your materials."

The response was not 'hey, they're not going to be helpful without the presentation,' it was "I can't do that."

Why not? Whats the big deal?

Fine - everyone here thinks this request is out of line - and thats ok. I'm not offended by anyone elses opinion. But communication is the solution to all problems- and starting out with 'no' after a nice request and no further effort is not exactly being open and welcoming. You put on a FREE seminar, and you are handing out documents - then its not secret. You're not charging for them- you likely have a .ppt or a PDF of the document - no one is asking you to do anything other than send an email with that document.
The problem is that "why not?" really isn't anybody's business. It's the presenter's choice, and they don't have to justify their reasoning to someone who has more important things to do.
 
Why not? Whats the big deal?
The "big" deal (and it isn't really big as it relates to this thread, just clear) is that you don't get to decide how someone else manages their intellectual property.

Nauga,
all rights reserved
 
I received an FAA FAAST/WINGS seminar notification. It was about learning about Skew-T. I was interested and sent an email to the FAA contact. I will be out of the country when they are holding the seminar. Here is the our conversation:

me:
"Hello - any chance I can get any handouts / course materials for the Skew-T seminar when they become available - will not be able to attend. Thanks"

FAA response:
"We are unable to do that."

Ok then. So much for fulfilling your mission of pilot education.

My response back:
"It's a government document, right?

"Then consider this an FOIA request for it."

arsehole.

If the course was being taught by a FAAST voulunteer, all materials used in the presentation were his personal property. FOIA request all you like, you are not getting them if they aren't govt property.
 
It sounds like you didn't email the presenter. What makes you think the contact you emailed even has the presentation, or is in a position to give it out?

To answer the questions- it was obviously not an FAA employee. But his attitude was so dismissive and so rude - so I asked him for his FSDO contact person - because one of us is going to learn an important lesson. Might be me - I've been wrong before- not about this stuff - but there is always a first time

So have you learned your important lesson yet?
 
Yeah, I'm the arsehole for thinking that a free public presentation marketed by the government contains a document that is public. Sorry.

I think you figured out that part. Now let's flip the coin.

Many of the Wings-approved seminars are put on by people who are using them to provide a little information along with a whole lot of sales pitch to come to one of their bigger seminars... or take their "advanced class". Or buy a product with plenty of product placement or even just a little.

They've "gamed" the free seminar a bit into free advertising and marketing for other stuff they do and sell.

So... maybe you ran into one of those. You didn't provide the seminar number, so we can't look it up, but if you search by presenter you can often see the pattern. Same seminar over and over and always a link to their company on the announcement and you go read about the company and see what they really sell.

So yup. The dude is kinda a prick not to share his presentation. No argument there. But it's his to do with as he pleases.

Honestly there's an ethics line being crossed there somewhere... maybe... or not... on some of the author's use of the system as their own personal sales lead generator, but I don't know where the line is crossed.

I wouldn't fault a CFI who wanted more local recognition from finding all the resources (mostly the venue - large meeting spaces aren't always easy to come by on airports) to do these and to give solid presentations where they end with "here's how to reach me if you'd like to go flying or learn more...". It's a lot of work to put one on.

I've seen a NUMBER of clubs use these as ways to get local pilots in their doors too. By far the most common one of those here is the local club that pushes that they're mostly Cirrus. They got some Cirrus award for best club of the year or something too.

I think they're legitimately giving back to the community but it also keeps their name in lights, and they get great speakers for their Wings approved events. Not always their CFIs but experts on weather, etc. And it gets pilots in their front door who might wander around and see their Redbird or ask about a checkout in an SR-20/22 etc. They do a lot of them and it adds to the feel that they care about their club members when they can say they put one on regularly. Community. That's about as close as it gets to the old "sitting around the airport on a Saturday talking with all the other pilots" feel anymore.

Alternatively here locally, Colorado Pilots Assn always makes sure their mountain flying ground school is Wings approved, but their material is also considered copyrighted and close held and not available for public distribution. They want people to come in person and learn. They then will pair folks up by ability level with local CFIs for the flying portion but they get nothing from that business transaction. They charge a bit for the class.

At the national level on the webinars, Mike Busch does them monthly and keeps his SAAVY service in the footlights, as well as a few meteorology types. Someone by the name of Delia Colvin (sp?) also does similar for weather topics. Same seminar over and over.

I'm honestly curious which one you asked. If it's one of the national ones they're often just doing the Wings thing as a nice "taste" of their bigger seminars.

Whether that's wrong or right, I don't know. It gets pilots to show up and learn and they get some credits for it toward their Wings stuff if they like that system for meeting flight review requirements.

One of my favorite local Wings approved things is my home airport holds a "fireside chat with ATC" and the Tower manager and some of his controllers come down and talk for a while about problems they see happening from the Tower cab and then they open up a Q&A session. That one is worth attending every year.

And like I said, I've known a couple CFIs who do it for self-promotion. (It also doesn't hurt your relationship with the FSDO either, and many get appointed as FAASTeam members along that path.)

Or maybe they're just addicted to giving public presentations. One I know is definitely that type. Did a couple of safety presentations after a widely publicized engine-out and liked it so much, they write new presentations every quarter or so. I could see the appeal if you don't mind public speaking.

Or in the case of one, he's a high time mountain pilot who's already already involved in all the CPA courses but also volunteers to give a shorter presentation on mountain flying every year at Oshkosh in the FAA building. He just likes sharing. Adds another reason to go to OSH every year for him too, since there's a "job" to be done.

So there ya go. Maybe you ran into a self-promoter who's pitching a bigger meteorology course who doesn't release their material but prefers folks come in person. Or the material isn't even theirs to email and they only have permission to use it at in person sessions.

It's an interesting system. I think it creates more good than harm but it's definitely a method some use for marketing and mild sales pitches to the assembled crowd.
 
It's not clear that he asked the owner of the material or anyone who had the authority to provide the material.

Nauga,
property-minded
Actually - I did. I contacted the actual organizer of the event - and he was the one who said de nada.

It's ok - I know they use it for marketing other more expensive events - which seems to me even more of a reason to hand out your materials to all comers.

That said - I spoke with the guy - he understands my position - his position is if you want me stuff you come to my presentation. We chatted a few min about marketing philosophy and what he's trying to accomplish - nice enough guy.
 
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It's not clear that he asked the owner of the material or anyone who had the authority to provide the material.

Nauga,
property-minded

I figured it was worth the benefit of the doubt.

Seems like he did, in the end.

And seems like he found what I was saying, many Wings approved events are mild marketing for more expensive in-depth events.

You can see this if you search Wings for "advanced" credits. Very very few advanced credit offerings overall, and those that are in the database are almost always a couple hundred bucks and a weekend at a minimum. Sometimes a full week.
 
I figured it was worth the benefit of the doubt.
I'd've given the POC that same benefit of doubt before referring to him as an 'arsehole' and a 'prick'. But I'm neither you nor the OP.

Nauga,
who doubts the benefit of some people's benefit of doubt
 
At the national level on the webinars, Mike Busch does them monthly and keeps his SAAVY service in the footlights, as well as a few meteorology types. Someone by the name of Delia Colvin (sp?) also does similar for weather topics. Same seminar over and over.

She does, indeed. And I keep getting emails offering more of her services. Just how the system seems to work.
 
Geee, we thought that the FAA really is about improving safety the right way. :)
See, what we have here is a failure to communicate (not necessarily on your side, you tried). The government is NOT known for being efficient, effective or even forthcoming. Most government employees could care less, they're just waiting for their sweet gov't-guaranteed pension. Also, most government employees don't have enough brain cells to care more.

I guess since you cannot talk sense into those who are trying to disguise the seminar under the cover of "spreading safety", you are stuck with one option only: ask a friend pilot to bring you a copy of the handouts from the seminar.
Why allow us to do it the easy way when there is still the hard way left, right? :)

Let us know what handouts you get, I am curious how deep they'll delve into the Skew-T. (I hope they don't overwhelm the crowd in the first lesson)
 
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