Frequency change when departing D

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by zaitcev, Jun 19, 2018.

  1. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    If you call Approach and ask to change frequencies to the Class D Tower and Approach replies, "no stay with me," the dilemma is of your own making.

    Dunno if I did in this thread, but I have told the story of planning to transition through (not over) a Class D with a student. We were not receiving Flight Following, so my student dutifully called the Tower for transition. "Contact Approach on..."

    Point is, in the case of TRACON vs Class D, we pilots don't know where the jurisdiction of one actually ends and the other begins. The ATC Handbook actually recognizes this when it says, " The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility" (italics in the Order) when discussing ATC's coordination obligation

    Edited...
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  2. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

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    ATC is required to initiate a search whenever there is an unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications, IFR or VFR.

    I've observed many aircraft change to 1200 codes as they left Class C airspace. I'd call them, there was rarely a response.
     
  3. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait

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    that was exactly my experience inbound to KRDM. they had an Alaska flight departing to PDX climbing out while i was descending in.

    they were super nice about holding me, but especially coming into a new airport, I like some time to listen to the new tower (I was on comm 2) to develop the picture of what they're doing and where everyone is at in D
     
  4. deyoung

    deyoung Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thank you.

    Could you explain in more detail, that I might understand why?
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  5. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm not one of the ones who think that a late hand-off by a controller puts the pilot in violation, so this particular example is not a dilemma for me at all! :)
     
  6. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    What is this "ATC Handbook" you are referring to? The 7110.65 which is widely regarded by all controllers, doesn't have any red ink in it at all.
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Interesting. Must be one of those republication things.
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Hmm. A lot of it is written in blood just like the FAR’s. Maybe they should do that.
     
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  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Like a cut and paste when the paster wanted to make a point
     
  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I should have done italics like the actual Order does to highlight it.
     
  11. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Again I ask regardless of political platform, what reference are you referring to when you say "ATC Handbook?"
     
  12. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think he's referring to JO 7110.65. Not sure why he thought the highlighted passage was printed in red, however.
     
  13. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    The only thing I know referred to by that term is the 7110.65.

    Even the FAA uses it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  14. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    There are some republications of it which use red instead of the original italics. That's where I copied and pasted from. Nothing more complicated or underhanded than that.
     
  15. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Nobody in the FAA or any other ATC facility calls the "point sixty-five" the "ATC handbook," which is why I asked. If you saw it in print, you would quickly see that its much more than a handbook. Do you have a paragraph number?
     
  16. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well Tim, I've heard it called "ATC Handbook" many times when I controlled, but yeah, most everyone called it the ".65" like you said.

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO_7110.65X_Air_Traffic_Control.pdf
     
  17. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Well Mark when YOU were controlling it was more of a pamphlet. ;)
     
  18. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Haha! But no, it was a couple inches thick (the .65 you pervs), at least inch and a half. Worked for a Chief at CAFB in '77 who served 33 years. I used to kid him that when he started ATC they used stepladders and megaphones to control planes.
     
  19. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    We keep it in two books now and they are both 3-4" thick. This is AFTER they took out the aircraft characteristics chapter which was at least an inch thick alone.
     
  20. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :eek: Wow. Yeah I reckon it was a pamphlet then! :yesnod:
     
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    I've called it that here at times rather than throwing out 7110.65. Once you do that than an explanation of what it is should follow so I just say that. And it seems to me I think It's been referred to as that 'officialy' in other documents. But I ain't bettin money on it
     
  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    It was 3 books once. 7110.8, 9 and 10. Terminal, Enroute and Flight Service. .8 and .9 got combined into .65 late 70's/early 80's I think it was

    EDIT: heres a guy who gives some history on it http://thebigskytheory.com/atp.shtml
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  23. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

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    Maybe it was on stone tablets and called the "point LXV" ... ?
     
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  24. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Hey now, I was a controller in the 70s & 80s!

    image.gif
     
  25. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

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    Precisely. And Vesuvius erupted in 79.

    :p
     
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  26. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    A simple google search for ATC Handbook on the faa site will show multiple uses, including the ATC Handbook Revision Steering Committee. Another search within the document will show the language I quoted.
     
  27. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah but, but......:(
     
  28. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

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    You stated that if a pilot chooses to be in communication with ATC the pilot is then actually required to follow ATC instructions. No such requirement exists.
     
  29. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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  30. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

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    That "argument" assumes the FAA wants pilots to obey instructions that it does not want controllers to issue. It's absurd.
     
  31. deyoung

    deyoung Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What instructions does the FAA not want controllers to issue? Sorry if I seem slow here, but I'm not following this assumption.

    I could see making the argument that if you are VFR and not in class B, C, or D airspace then you are not "in an area in which air traffic control is exercised" -- but it doesn't sound like that's what you're trying to say (and I'm not sure it's very convincing anyway).
     
  32. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Air traffic control is exercised in all controlled airspace (which includes E).
     
  33. deyoung

    deyoung Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ok, given that, 91.123(b) seems very specific, clear, and free of wiggle room to me.
     
  34. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I don't need to google anything as the current 7110.65 (with no red language, nor has it ever had red language in it for the last 26 years I've been controlling) is within arms reach at all times when I'm at work. We are required (as pilots are required to have current charts) to have the most current issue. I simply asked for a paragraph number as I can't find it anywhere written as you quoted it.

    Edit: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I can't find it as quoted. Having said that, I agree with the quote, "The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility" because there is something called a "point out" which allows one controller to enter another's area of jurisdiction with an aircraft under their control. Its done all the time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  35. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    In the version of the .65 I found with a moment's googling, the quoted text appears in italics as a NOTE to 2-1-16.
     
  36. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I think part of the reason is, with all the LOAs between TRACON and Towers, pilots don't really know which facility has jurisdiction over the upper levels of Class D. That's what my student found iN the flight I mentioned earlier.
     
  37. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Most pilots are not under any such requirement. Charting doesn't come into play until you get into the large/turbine aircraft and commercial operators.
     
  38. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I'll look it up tomorrow morning. I was looking in the radar section.
     
  39. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    Every time I see this thread title I think I’m on uncontrolled airspace...
     
  40. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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