Freeing a frozen nut (aluminum) on steel threads

Richard said:
... What would you suggest with respect to the application of heat? My premise in heating was any corrosion that exists between the dissimilar metals would be crushed by expansion.
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No. Wrong premise. Aluminum has a larger temperature coefficient of expansion than steel. So the nut gels bigger faster than the steel, loosening the joint. So you heat it as hot as you dare, then immediately try to loosen the nut. If it doesn't have wrench flats, then try a strap wrench. Kevlar strap anyone?
 
jsstevens said:
I get it. I have many of my grandfather's tools.

As a previous poster suggested: impact. Tap nut all the way around.

Then my addition: once you have the crescent wrench well set, tap the handle of the crescent wrench with a metal hammer, gently. The sharp impact will some time break things loose. Also try tightening first. Sometimes it'll move one way but not the other.

John
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Thank you for the suggestion but I've been wrenching since I was a kid. Everything you mention does work in most cases. But this case is unusual, not often have I come across an aluminum nut on steel threads. BTW; the threads are like 24 TPI...what num nut would come up with that for a field piece?

Crescent wont work on this round nut. Picture a 2" round nut with 1/8" ridges at 12 points around the circumference.


The sons of one of my aunts got most of the tools and all the shootin irons of my favorite grandpa. Those so and so's mistreated the firarms so terribly they would never shoot again. Using a 1868 octagon side by side 10 ga as a baseball bat is criminal. That is just one example.
 
Richard said:
RE: application of heat, alternately I have tried heating the nut and heating the barrel. No joy.

What would you suggest with respect to the application of heat? My premise in heating was any corrosion that exists between the dissimilar metals would be crushed by expansion.
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Maybe use a propane torch or similar and have repeated cycles of heating the entire nut then applying the rust dissolving solution. Don't get the aluminum so hot that is turns color, just go up to about 400* or so. Direct the flame down the length of the nut rather than perpendicular to the nut. Keep the flame moving slowly. Don't be overly generous with the ATF/acetone or mouse milk - just apply a little to the exposed threads adjacent to the nut. If you need to protect the wooden handle use a wet rag.
 
Richard said:
[snip]
Crescent wont work on this round nut. Picture a 2" round nut with 1/8" ridges at 12 points around the circumference.
[snip]
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I thought you stated in a previous post about using a real Crescent brand wrench?

Yes, this is a tough one because of the dissimilar metals.

I assume you've tried turning it when it was hot as well.

Hmm. Strap wrench will tend to compress the nut, although probably not enough to matter. Hard surface tap won't do diddly with a strap wrench because the strap takes up the impact.

I once (or twice) made a wrench out of aluminum foil wrapped around something and FORCED into an existing wrench to get a solid connection without damaging the nut.

Other than that and soaking it in the 50/50 ATF/acetone mixture I have nothing more to offer. I hope you get it fixed, I have some idea of how much it means because of the source.

John
 
Heat the whole thing thoroughly, take a chunk of dry ice and put it on the stud as you try to turn the nut.
 
jsstevens said:
I thought you stated in a previous post about using a real Crescent brand wrench?

Yes, this is a tough one because of the dissimilar metals.

I assume you've tried turning it when it was hot as well.

Hmm. Strap wrench will tend to compress the nut, although probably not enough to matter. Hard surface tap won't do diddly with a strap wrench because the strap takes up the impact.

I once (or twice) made a wrench out of aluminum foil wrapped around something and FORCED into an existing wrench to get a solid connection without damaging the nut.

Other than that and soaking it in the 50/50 ATF/acetone mixture I have nothing more to offer. I hope you get it fixed, I have some idea of how much it means because of the source.

John
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You are quite right. I apologize. I meant Channel Lock.
 
An aluminum nut on steel threads has a lot of surface contact area for corrosion to form. It has corroded, and the corrosion byproducts have swollen in there and locked it tight. You might as well cut it off. You can drill the nut through one of the flats to remove most of the metal through the height of the nut, then split it with a cold chisel.

Dan
 
jsstevens said:
I thought you stated in a previous post about using a real Crescent brand wrench?

Yes, this is a tough one because of the dissimilar metals.

I assume you've tried turning it when it was hot as well.

Hmm. Strap wrench will tend to compress the nut, although probably not enough to matter. Hard surface tap won't do diddly with a strap wrench because the strap takes up the impact.

I once (or twice) made a wrench out of aluminum foil wrapped around something and FORCED into an existing wrench to get a solid connection without damaging the nut.

Other than that and soaking it in the 50/50 ATF/acetone mixture I have nothing more to offer. I hope you get it fixed, I have some idea of how much it means because of the source.

John
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Have you actually used the ATF/Acetone solution? I wonder who figured that out? It's an impressive bit of chemistry.
 
Dan Thomas said:
An aluminum nut on steel threads has a lot of surface contact area for corrosion to form. It has corroded, and the corrosion byproducts have swollen in there and locked it tight. You might as well cut it off. You can drill the nut through one of the flats to remove most of the metal through the height of the nut, then split it with a cold chisel.

Dan
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I REALLY do not want to cut into the nut.
 
Richard said:
Have you actually used the ATF/Acetone solution? I wonder who figured that out? It's an impressive bit of chemistry.
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It's been around forever, I've been using it since I was 11, there was always a pump can in the shop with it mixed up from the first day I walked in.
 
Shown is a close up picture of the aluminum nut. I found the picture online, it is not a picture of the tool I am working with although the nut is the same. The tool I am working is threaded a bit more than that shown in the picture.

I think I will try full submersion in the ATF/Acetone solution with periodic rapping with a mallet over a couple of days. After that I will secure the piece in a vise and torque on it until something gives. I so much wish to avoid destruction of any part but so be it. I will deal with that as it comes.

Thank you all for your comments. Of course anything else to be added will be duly noted. I feel very let down by the results of the actions of my brother last night. I know he knew better. I also know he meant the best. But a piece of personal history has been destroyed. I guess it's like the loss one may have felt at the time but generations later they are glad that some part was preserved. Well, today is that day of loss. Damn.
 

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RotorAndWing said:
I've used mouse milk on turbos, it is an amazing product. I like PB Blaster as well, it help to soak the stubborn bolt or nut for a few days.
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As an aside from my moping on this thread, to be clear do you mean THE bearing on a turbo? Would the milk help on a 'cooked' bearing?
 
If the thing hasn't been exercised in 60 years, the aluminum is most likely electolytically welded to the steel. Aluminum and steel don't play well with each other --- the aluminum corrodes and leaves the steel intact. Cut the nut off OR put the whole thing aside as a memorial piece and go to the nearest Army/Navy store for a usable replacement
 
oldShar said:
If the thing hasn't been exercised in 60 years, the aluminum is most likely electolytically welded to the steel. Aluminum and steel don't play well with each other --- the aluminum corrodes and leaves the steel intact. Cut the nut off OR put the whole thing aside as a memorial piece and go to the nearest Army/Navy store for a usable replacement
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Shar, while it hasn't been 60 yrs in the state it is now, your advice is logical. I remain hopeful that I will have good news to report after I try the ATF/Acetone solution.

BTW: I may be coming back to ABQ soon. Maybe we can get the flight.
 
Richard said:
As an aside from my moping on this thread, to be clear do you mean THE bearing on a turbo? Would the milk help on a 'cooked' bearing?
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I would assume he means the hardware and nut holding the impeller on, it lives in a very hostile environment and can be a *****. The bearing is a yellow metal alloy, when it galls MM won't work.
 
I was also voting "cut the nut" but the above picture clarifies that the OP wants to loosen the threaded collar which is a more substantial (size, not strength) part of his grandfather's etool ... I now get it why he doesn't want to cut it.
 
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You need more than heat, you need heat and cold when you deal with these issues in aluminum and steel interfaces. Trust me, I've been through it thousands of times on boats. I need a torch and a hose, or ice, or dry ice where I need to limit the mess.
 
Henning said:
You need more than heat, you need heat and cold when you deal with these issues in aluminum and steel interfaces. Trust me, I've been through it thousands of times on boats. I need a torch and a hose, or ice, or dry ice where I need to limit the mess.
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And with a torch, you run the risk of melting the aluminum. Unlike steel, aluminum will not glow before it turns to a puddle. An unoxygenated torch (like propane) will not be hot enough to free it.

If this thing is a keepsake, leave it alone. You can only make it look like hell.

If you need something to dig a latrine hole, buy a new one. They cost like $10. You can get them at your favorite outdoors store (camping, sporting goods, etc.), or a surplus store.
 
MAKG1 said:
And with a torch, you run the risk of melting the aluminum. Unlike steel, aluminum will not glow before it turns to a puddle. An unoxygenated torch (like propane) will not be hot enough to free it.

If this thing is a keepsake, leave it alone. You can only make it look like hell.

If you need something to dig a latrine hole, buy a new one. They cost like $10. You can get them at your favorite outdoors store (camping, sporting goods, etc.), or a surplus store.
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Very true, the heating process s delicate and I use an Oxy-acetylene with a rosebud tip rig typically. There have been instance to pull a stainless stud though where I heat soaked the area by repeated applications of a TIG torch on the end of the stud. Once the area was heat soaked I'd take dry ice to the stud (once it was hanging from the overhead and I used a cup with liquid Freon in it and put up to the stud, that was neat.).

I agree he should have left it alone as a keepsake, but the damage is already done. If he wants it to look good, he needs to buy a new nut.
 
I would make a bucket (seriously) of ATF/Acetone mix. heat the nut (only) up to about 450 degrees. Use a laser thermometer to verify. The reason I say 400 is many aluminum alloys anneal in the 500 degree range and I would want to avoid that if you plan to reuse the nut. I would then plunge the e-tool in the bucket. I would repeat this everyday for a few days, leaving the tool soaking in the penetrating oil between heatings.

Then I would take a very high quality offset box wrench like Snap-On (no cheapies) and rock the fastener back and forth (loosening and then tightening pressure) for a few minutes a day. I would apply enough force to loosen the bolt under normal conditions, but no more.

I would be very surprised if this doesn't work. It just takes patience.
 
MAKG1 said:
Heating up to 450 and dunking in flammable oils and solvents?

This doesn't sound very safe to me.
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Ever oil harden tool steel? Same deal a little smokey and sometime a touch of surface fire. It doesn't blow up its really no biggie.
 
MAKG1 said:
And with a torch, you run the risk of melting the aluminum. Unlike steel, aluminum will not glow before it turns to a puddle. An unoxygenated torch (like propane) will not be hot enough to free it.

If this thing is a keepsake, leave it alone. You can only make it look like hell.

If you need something to dig a latrine hole, buy a new one. They cost like $10. You can get them at your favorite outdoors store (camping, sporting goods, etc.), or a surplus store.
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"There are many like it but this one is mine."

Have you ever heard that said?

This is my dad's tool that he carried into several theaters. I've got plenty of tools to dig whatever hole you need. But I have only this tool from me da.

In response to Greg, this is not grand dad's this is my dad's. I'm first generation missing him.
 
timwinters said:
Try the 50/50 solution while you're waiting for the Mouse Milk to arrive (I doubt you'll find any locally...you'll likely need to order it from an online aviation retailer).

BTW, since there are many specifications for ATF these days, the one I always use is Dexron/Mercon.
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You aren't kidding.

I just returned from the specialty house that caters to machinist and tool & die makers. They looked at me like I have a third eye when asking for MM.

To top it off, their least expensive digital micrometer was $360. Holy cow!
 
MAKG1 said:
Heating up to 450 and dunking in flammable oils and solvents?

This doesn't sound very safe to me.
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We do it all the time in industry, just do it where the flame can be controlled and extinguished and wear appropriate PPE. It doesn't always ignite either, especially if you quickly submerge the hot part as there is no source of ignition where oxygen is present. It's actually rare that it ignites.
 
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Henning said:
We do it all the time in industry, just do it where the flame can be controlled and extinguished and wear appropriate PPE. It doesn't always ignite either, especially if you quickly submerge the hot part as there is no source of ignition where oxygen is present. It's actually rare that it ignites.
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I admit to not having seen everything but I suspect where combustion takes place it is because the part is too large for the pool of oil. That is, the equation of pool is not equal to the part to be quenched. IOW, operator error.
 
Richard said:
I admit to not having seen everything but I suspect where combustion takes place it is because the part is too large for the pool of oil. That is, the equation of pool is not equal to the part to be quenched. IOW, operator error.
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If you freeze the handle in a block of ice and heat the nut after soaking it in the 50/50, you'll get it off, you need a hot torch and you need to reduce the temp of the steel to keep the required temp spread below the destructive temp of the aluminum. It's not about terminal heat to come loose, it's about temp spread.

At this point though, I would look for a replacement nut on eBay and cut that one off with a Dremmel. "Sorry I broke your shovel dad, but it's good as new now."
 
Soak it in a bucket of diesel for a week or two. I did that with an 18" crescent wrench that was just ahout rusted solid. Two weeks of a diesel bath and every speck of rust was gone.
 
You could also try soaking it in vinegar and allow the electrolytic action soften things up.
 
MAKG1 said:
With oil, sure.

But, with acetone? Acetone doesn't like to stay in a liquid state.
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Neither does oil, it evaporates producing similarly combustible vapor during quenching, maybe not at the same rate, but certainly enough to flash IF there is an immediate source of ignition at the air/vapor interface. The acetone will make the flash bigger is all. Regardless though, the process is carried out in such a manner as if you were expecting it to flash in a setting that renders the fire confined, controlled, and harmless.
 
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if you have to cut the nut don't despair, it's only made from AL. Machine a new one using the old one as a template.
 
This is a tough one.

A lot of good suggestions here.

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is; once you have administered what ever the next chemical or thermal technique is, maintain the torque you are putting on the nut for longer than you normally think would be necessary. Torque it up to just below where you think it'll break;-) and then just hold that torque steady for 30 seconds or a minute or until your arms are sore. Have had this work many times after trying all of the other tricks.
Good luck.

h
 
JHW said:
if you have to cut the nut don't despair, it's only made from AL. Machine a new one using the old one as a template.
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I think it's that cast barrel nut on the handle he's talking about.
 
JHW said:
it is. machine a copy
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There were many millions of these shovels made, you can get a replacement for a few dollars on eBay even if you buy another entire unit to salvage the nut off. Unless you own a machine shop, it's hardly worth it to make one.

I bet a couple of days in vinegar would do it.
 
Or just spend the $10 to get a new nut off a replacement unit, and cut/split the old one off.

No fuss, no muss, and perhaps you can even chase the threads (or just wire brush them) and get all the crap out.
 
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