Forward slip

Forward slip is a required skill for a tailwheel endorsement. My instructor verified that I already knew how to forward slip when I did it almost automatically to lose some altitude. In passing, he said "or you can slip it in the turn".

Last week, I practiced slipping in the turn in the Luscombe and found that I like it a lot. I would use it to lose about 300' - 400' in the base to final turn and that way I would not need to lose so much on final. In the Luscombe I would just start feeding in aileron in the turn and either no rudder or opposite rudder. Adverse yaw would do most of the work. I had a headwind on base so I would just modulate how much aileron and rudder I would use to lose the altitude and make the turn, rolling out on final where I wanted to be.
 
What you all should be worried about is making sure all students/pilots know HOW too slip instead of WHAT kind of slip are we going to call it.
 
On my last flight I got a lot more assertive with the aileron and rudder. WAY more assertive. Almost aggressive, even. :) It earned an "attaboy" from the instructor. I was just worried about dragging a wingtip along the runway, brought it up some and ended up drifting left with the x-wind before we touched down. I think it always LOOKS way worse than it is, when you're only a few feet up in ground effect.
 
What you all should be worried about is making sure all students/pilots know HOW too slip instead of WHAT kind of slip are we going to call it.

I don't use "forward" and "Side" in lessons -- it's really an academic discussion that can be had on a web board or when hanging out in the FBO.

I say "Slip" when I mean the maneuver that presents the side of the A/C to lose altitude quickly without increasing airspeed.

I say "Counter drift with wing down into the wind, keep the nose straight with rudder" when referring to landing in a crosswind.
 
Forward slip is a required skill for a tailwheel endorsement. My instructor verified that I already knew how to forward slip when I did it almost automatically to lose some altitude. In passing, he said "or you can slip it in the turn".

Last week, I practiced slipping in the turn in the Luscombe and found that I like it a lot. I would use it to lose about 300' - 400' in the base to final turn and that way I would not need to lose so much on final. In the Luscombe I would just start feeding in aileron in the turn and either no rudder or opposite rudder. Adverse yaw would do most of the work. I had a headwind on base so I would just modulate how much aileron and rudder I would use to lose the altitude and make the turn, rolling out on final where I wanted to be.

I do not think I would slip in a base to final situation.

Left aileron, right rudder, base to final...what could go wrong? Oh yeah, a cross controlled stall. All you're missing is a slight centerline overshoot and now you get to pull up and die.

Why give away 2 of the 3? To lose 300 to 400 feet? Howz about you just open the pattern a tad or start the descent earlier? There's my unsolicited 2 cents.
 
I do not think I would slip in a base to final situation.

Left aileron, right rudder, base to final...what could go wrong? Oh yeah, a cross controlled stall. All you're missing is a slight centerline overshoot and now you get to pull up and die.

Why give away 2 of the 3? To lose 300 to 400 feet? Howz about you just open the pattern a tad or start the descent earlier? There's my unsolicited 2 cents.

'Cause it is about learning a skill. Slipping in the turn has the rudder in the complete opposite direction to a base-to-final stall-spin. You are closer to that stall-spin configuration in the coordinated turn.
 
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Why give away 2 of the 3? To lose 300 to 400 feet? Howz about you just open the pattern a tad or start the descent earlier? There's my unsolicited 2 cents.
My instructor said that this was a good skill to learn in case you ever need to put the airplane down and you have a great field to put it and you need to lose some altitude. Now.

That's my 2 cents, but I'm a student, so I'm open for discussion!
 
My instructor said that this was a good skill to learn in case you ever need to put the airplane down and you have a great field to put it and you need to lose some altitude. Now.

That's my 2 cents, but I'm a student, so I'm open for discussion!

Me too, I'm a student, and I hope to continue being one for a long time to come!
 
'Cause it is about learning a skill. Slipping in the turn has the rudder in the complete opposite direction to a base-to-final stall-spin. You are closer to that stall-spin configuration in the coordinated turn.

I'm no aerobatics master or spin expert, but seems to me a plane can spin either way. All you need is a stall and an uncoordinated airplane and a'spinnin ya go. If that is a true statement, and I believe it is, then you are incorrect in your statement that I am "closer to that stall-spin configuration in the coordinated turn".

And if THAT is true then why on Gods earth would you want to practice a skill that takes you right to the lip of death to lose a few hundred feet when there are many other ways to do the same without poking a stick at deaths fiery crater maker?


Edit to add: Please don't read this as I am anti-slip, I'm not. I just read 'slipping on base to final' and my hairs perked up.
 
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I do not think I would slip in a base to final situation.

Left aileron, right rudder, base to final...what could go wrong? Oh yeah, a cross controlled stall. All you're missing is a slight centerline overshoot and now you get to pull up and die.

Why give away 2 of the 3? To lose 300 to 400 feet? Howz about you just open the pattern a tad or start the descent earlier? There's my unsolicited 2 cents.


Hunh?

Have you ever stalled from a slip?

In most GA SEL, it's a non-event -- high wing comes down a bit to almost level.
 
I'm no aerobatics master or spin expert, but seems to me a plane can spin either way. All you need is stall and an uncoordinated airplane and a'spinnin ya go. If that is a true statement, and I believe it is, then you are incorrect in your statement that I am "closer to that stall-spin configuration in the coordinated turn".

And if THAT is true then why on Gods earth would you want to practice a skill that takes you right to the lip of death to lose a few hundred feet when there are many other ways to do the same without poking a stick at deaths fiery crater maker?

No, spins start from a skid, not a slip. The roll-yaw couple that causes a spin is that the roll and yaw are in the same direction. In a slip, your roll and yaw are in opposite directions.
 
I'm no aerobatics master or spin expert, but seems to me a plane can spin either way. All you need is a stall and an uncoordinated airplane and a'spinnin ya go. If that is a true statement, and I believe it is, then you are incorrect in your statement that I am "closer to that stall-spin configuration in the coordinated turn".

And if THAT is true then why on Gods earth would you want to practice a skill that takes you right to the lip of death to lose a few hundred feet when there are many other ways to do the same without poking a stick at deaths fiery crater maker?


Edit to add: Please don't read this as I am anti-slip, I'm not. I just read 'slipping on base to final' and my hairs perked up.

Please get some more training, ASAP with a CFI who knows how to stall, slip, and recover from a spin.

Learn what happens when you stall in a slip.

"Always keep the ball centered" is fine advice, but letting it displace during a slip is still a "coordinated maneuver."
 
Please get some more training, ASAP with a CFI who knows how to stall, slip, and recover from a spin.

Learn what happens when you stall in a slip.

"Always keep the ball centered" is fine advice, but letting it displace during a slip is still a "coordinated maneuver."

Umm, I will not. First, I never slip. (not that I'm against anyone else doing it) and second, I don't stall or spin. I stay coordinated. I go in the sim twice a year to do my stalls and such. Spins are not on the curriculum at my company or any other that I'm aware.

Just because someone comes on here and says, "I don't think crossing the controls base to final is a good idea." doesn't mean the standard come back should be "YOU NEED A CFI, ASAP!!" Cross controlled stalls are a big problem in the GA fleet. That's not me talking...it's facts and such.

I do not need a CFI, ASAP. Stand down please. sheesh.
 
Umm, I will not. First, I never slip. (not that I'm against anyone else doing it) and second, I don't stall or spin. I stay coordinated. I go in the sim twice a year to do my stalls and such. Spins are not on the curriculum at my company or any other that I'm aware.

Just because someone comes on here and says, "I don't think crossing the controls base to final is a good idea." doesn't mean the standard come back should be "YOU NEED A CFI, ASAP!!" Cross controlled stalls are a big problem in the GA fleet. That's not me talking...it's facts and such.

I do not need a CFI, ASAP. Stand down please. sheesh.

Ok.

But a slip is a handy thing to have in your toolbox when push comes to shove - ask the pilot of the Gimli Glider...
 
Umm, I will not. First, I never slip. (not that I'm against anyone else doing it) and second, I don't stall or spin. I stay coordinated. I go in the sim twice a year to do my stalls and such. Spins are not on the curriculum at my company or any other that I'm aware.

Just because someone comes on here and says, "I don't think crossing the controls base to final is a good idea." doesn't mean the standard come back should be "YOU NEED A CFI, ASAP!!" Cross controlled stalls are a big problem in the GA fleet. That's not me talking...it's facts and such.

I do not need a CFI, ASAP. Stand down please. sheesh.

Well, there we differ. I love to go out and do falling-leaf stalls :)

All due respect but you sound like the fella some CFI was complaining refused to do a stall doing a BFR. The pilot said he refused to teach himself to stall the airplane; the CFI said he needed to find another CFI.
 
Umm, I will not. First, I never slip. (not that I'm against anyone else doing it) and second, I don't stall or spin. I stay coordinated. I go in the sim twice a year to do my stalls and such. Spins are not on the curriculum at my company or any other that I'm aware.

Just because someone comes on here and says, "I don't think crossing the controls base to final is a good idea." doesn't mean the standard come back should be "YOU NEED A CFI, ASAP!!" Cross controlled stalls are a big problem in the GA fleet. That's not me talking...it's facts and such.

I do not need a CFI, ASAP. Stand down please. sheesh.


Sure -- as long as you refrain from disseminating misinformation.

:rolleyes2:

"Coordinated flight" <> "ball in center at all times"

FAA Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge:
Coordinated flight. Flight with a minimum disturbance of the forces maintaining equilibrium, established via effective control use.

Unfortunately the FAA contradicts itself in the Airplane Flying Handbook:
COORDINATED FLIGHT— Application of all appropriate flight and power controls to prevent slipping or skidding in any flight condition.

Here is a good article on the topic from Aviation Safety.

If I wasn't proficient in slips my emergency would not have turned out so well.
 
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Sure -- as long as you refrain from disseminating misinformation.

:rolleyes2:

"Coordinated flight" <> "ball in center at all times"

FAA Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge:

Unfortunately the FAA contradicts itself in the Airplane Flying Handbook:


Here is a good article on the topic from Aviation Safety.

That is all well and good. The problem comes when you believe that coordinated flight = correct flight. Coordinated flight is neither correct nor incorrect, it is simply a mode of flight that is neither slipping nor skidding.
 
I am not "some fella that would refuse to stall on a BFR. I've already posted on this thread that I do stalls every 6 months at recurrent.

I also do not believe "the only correct flight is coordinated flight". Look at post #89. I specifically said I'm not anti-slip.

Slips and skids have their place. Not in swept wing aircraft, but they have a place. A place they do NOT belong is base to final. If you disagree with that then have a nice day and please don't stall.

PS, anytime anybody proclaims someone one this forum needs to rush out and find a CFI ASAP because of a post, that person should be shunned, or flogged or something really bad.
 
I am not "some fella that would refuse to stall on a BFR. I've already posted on this thread that I do stalls every 6 months at recurrent.

I also do not believe "the only correct flight is coordinated flight". Look at post #89. I specifically said I'm not anti-slip.

Slips and skids have their place. Not in swept wing aircraft, but they have a place. A place they do NOT belong is base to final. If you disagree with that then have a nice day and please don't stall.

PS, anytime anybody proclaims someone one this forum needs to rush out and find a CFI ASAP because of a post, that person should be shunned, or flogged or something really bad.

You say you do your stalls in the simulator? I thought you were giving the impression that you do not want to stall a real airplane. Or maybe you do not fly small airplanes. Listen, I am not trying to make this about you and the comparison to the BFR/CFI anecdote may have been unfair to you. If so, then I apologize.

And thanks, I will try to have a nice day and not die :idea:
 
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I am not "some fella that would refuse to stall on a BFR. I've already posted on this thread that I do stalls every 6 months at recurrent.

I also do not believe "the only correct flight is coordinated flight". Look at post #89. I specifically said I'm not anti-slip.

Slips and skids have their place. Not in swept wing aircraft, but they have a place. A place they do NOT belong is base to final. If you disagree with that then have a nice day and please don't stall.

PS, anytime anybody proclaims someone one this forum needs to rush out and find a CFI ASAP because of a post, that person should be shunned, or flogged or something really bad.

You've added "Swept wing aircraft" into the discussion.

FWIW I slip continuously from downwind to short final just about every time I fly the Chief.

You're more than welcome to climb aboard anytime (after I get it flying again) and experience the joys of a well-executed slip.
 
If it helps anyone visualize it...

What flight control do you use to raise a lowered wing in a falling leaf stall?

Does the aircraft do that maneuver okay without stalling and spinning?

There ya go. Light bulb on yet? Same maneuver as a slip on final or in the base to final turn done "too slow". Anything faster you've got a margin.

Just gotta apply what you already know if you're one of the unlucky folks who haven't seen or purposely entered spins.

Just don't haul back on the yoke because the nose is lower.

Feel how much energy the aircraft has in your butt. Are you flying or sinking heavily. Controls feel right or mushy? Listen to the air over the airframe.

Piece o' cake. Easy to practice at altitude too.

Pick an imaginary runway in the sky 1000' lower, make a slipping turn to roll out level 50' above it going 180 degrees opposite of where you started.

Now just move that maneuver and the sounds, muscle memory, etc... lower, to a real runway.
 
From the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook:

CROSS-CONTROL STALL
The objective of a cross-control stall demonstration
maneuver is to show the effect of improper control
technique and to emphasize the importance of using
coordinated control pressures whenever making turns.

This type of stall occurs with the controls crossed—
aileron pressure applied in one direction and rudder
pressure in the opposite direction.

In addition, when excessive back-elevator pressure is
applied, a cross-control stall may result. This is a stall
that is most apt to occur during a poorly planned and
executed base-to-final approach turn, and often is the
result of overshooting the centerline of the runway
during that turn. Normally, the proper action to correct
for overshooting the runway is to increase the rate of
turn by using coordinated aileron and rudder. At the
relatively low altitude of a base-to-final approach turn,
improperly trained pilots may be apprehensive of
steepening the bank to increase the rate of turn, and
rather than steepening the bank, they hold the bank
constant and attempt to increase the rate of turn by
adding more rudder pressure in an effort to align it
with the runway.

The addition of inside rudder pressure will cause the
speed of the outer wing to increase, therefore, creating
greater lift on that wing. To keep that wing from rising
and to maintain a constant angle of bank, opposite
aileron pressure needs to be applied. The added inside
rudder pressure will also cause the nose to lower in
relation to the horizon. Consequently, additional
back-elevator pressure would be required to maintain a
constant-pitch attitude. The resulting condition is a
turn with rudder applied in one direction, aileron in the
opposite direction, and excessive back-elevator
pressure—a pronounced cross-control condition.

Since the airplane is in a skidding turn during the
cross-control condition, the wing on the outside of the
turn speeds up and produces more lift than the inside
wing; thus, the airplane starts to increase its bank. The
down aileron on the inside of the turn helps drag that
wing back, slowing it up and decreasing its lift, which
requires more aileron application. This further causes
the airplane to roll. The roll may be so fast that it is
possible the bank will be vertical or past vertical before
it can be stopped.

For the demonstration of the maneuver, it is important
that it be entered at a safe altitude because of the
possible extreme nosedown attitude and loss of
altitude that may result.

Before demonstrating this stall, the pilot should clear
the area for other air traffic while slowly retarding the
throttle. Then the landing gear (if retractable gear)
should be lowered, the throttle closed, and the altitude
maintained until the airspeed approaches the normal
glide speed. Because of the possibility of exceeding
the airplane’s limitations, flaps should not be extended.

While the gliding attitude and airspeed are being
established, the airplane should be retrimmed. When
the glide is stabilized, the airplane should be rolled into
a medium-banked turn to simulate a final approach
turn that would overshoot the centerline of the runway.
During the turn, excessive rudder pressure should be
applied in the direction of the turn but the bank held
constant by applying opposite aileron pressure. At the
same time, increased back-elevator pressure is
required to keep the nose from lowering.

All of these control pressures should be increased until
the airplane stalls. When the stall occurs, recovery is
made by releasing the control pressures and increasing
power as necessary to recover.

In a cross-control stall, the airplane often stalls with
little warning. The nose may pitch down, the inside
wing may suddenly drop, and the airplane may
continue to roll to an inverted position. This is usually
the beginning of a spin. It is obvious that close to the
ground is no place to allow this to happen.


Recovery must be made before the airplane enters an
abnormal attitude (vertical spiral or spin); it is a simple
matter to return to straight-and-level flight by
coordinated use of the controls. The pilot must be able
to recognize when this stall is imminent and must take
immediate action to prevent a completely stalled
condition. It is imperative that this type of stall not
occur during an actual approach to a landing, since
recovery may be impossible prior to ground contact
due to the low altitude.

The flight instructor should be aware that during traffic
pattern operations, any conditions that result in
overshooting the turn from base leg to final approach,
dramatically increases the possibility of an
unintentional accelerated stall while the airplane is in a
cross-control condition.

This would be an FAA publication saying exactly what I was saying. When turning, especially when at a low altitude and airspeed, one should be coordinated. If you think the FAA is out to lunch on this one then I guess there's not much more to say.
 
From the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook:



This would be an FAA publication saying exactly what I was saying. When turning, especially when at a low altitude and airspeed, one should be coordinated. If you think the FAA is out to lunch on this one then I guess there's not much more to say.

Read that again. It is very obvious what sort of "crossed-controlled" turn they are talking about and it is not a slip.
 
Yeah, but I even bolded the part at the top that says, "to emphasize the importance of using coordinated control pressures whenever making turns."

Coordinated means coordinated. Ball in center. They talk about the common student error of trying to get the nose around with rudder, countering with aileron and pulling back. But the plane doesn't care. The plane doesn't know where the runway is. It just knows it's cross controlled and stalling and THAT leads to a VERY abrupt roll and possible spin. At base to final there isn't much room to play with.

I started all of this by asking, "why would you intentionally give away 2 of the 3 requirements?" And especially when there are so many other ways to lose 300 to 400 feet.

Why not extend the pattern? Why not start your descent sooner? I am NOT saying 'don't slip'. I don't think slipping is bad technique. I am ONLY talking about doing it base to final. Why would anyone feel the need to defend that?
 
Yeah, but I even bolded the part at the top that says, "to emphasize the importance of using coordinated control pressures whenever making turns."

Coordinated means coordinated. Ball in center. They talk about the common student error of trying to get the nose around with rudder, countering with aileron and pulling back. But the plane doesn't care. The plane doesn't know where the runway is. It just knows it's cross controlled and stalling and THAT leads to a VERY abrupt roll and possible spin. At base to final there isn't much room to play with.

I started all of this by asking, "why would you intentionally give away 2 of the 3 requirements?" And especially when there are so many other ways to lose 300 to 400 feet.

Why not extend the pattern? Why not start your descent sooner? I am NOT saying 'don't slip'. I don't think slipping is bad technique. I am ONLY talking about doing it base to final. Why would anyone feel the need to defend that?

I also slip base to final. It's nice to be able to see where I want to land.

Deb


1948 Luscombe 8E
"Lester"
 
Well slap my piglet. I've been looking over some sites talking about this subject and I have found some support for slipping turns, even in the pattern. Golly jonkers.

I still don't like being uncoordinated so close to the ground, but hey I don't like green peppers either. Fly safe out there...
 
Well slap my piglet. I've been looking over some sites talking about this subject and I have found some support for slipping turns, even in the pattern. Golly jonkers.

I still don't like being uncoordinated so close to the ground, but hey I don't like green peppers either. Fly safe out there...


If you think "Ball always centered" = "Safety" you are sorely mistaken.
 
Yeah, I never said that did I? Can't you just let me eat a little crow in peace?
 
Well slap my piglet. I've been looking over some sites talking about this subject and I have found some support for slipping turns, even in the pattern. Golly jonkers.

I still don't like being uncoordinated so close to the ground, but hey I don't like green peppers either. Fly safe out there...

Here's some more support...and my top wing is even swept.:) I fly my approaches like this as much for fun as for visibility.

http://vimeo.com/m/34737384
 
Here's some more support...and my top wing is even swept.:) I fly my approaches like this as much for fun as for visibility.

http://vimeo.com/m/34737384

Wow, nice video! However I call schanigains. All bets and rules of thumb are off on a power off approach. Sometimes you need to do some of that pilot ****.

Seriously, nice video.
 
You have to really be honking on that rudder and holding serious back pressure to actually spin a Cessna / Cherokee / whatever.

A base/final spin/ death is traditionally caused by a skidding (not slipping) left turn and if the pilot is making a "normal" approach they probably have some power in too - which will increase the tendency of the plane to drop the left wing and begin an incipient spin.

As pointed out to me by whifferdill and experienced firsthand, a clipped piper cub won't even enter a full blown spin unless you give it full left rudder, stick all the way back AND blip the throttle when the wing begins to drop.... Also pretty sure I stalled that airplane while cross controlled with no crazy wing drop..


If you are slipping in base/ final your left wing is really low, and if you stall it it's going to want to drop the right wing because of all the right rudder you are holding in. This gives you much more time to just release back pressure and rudder, than if you are in a skidding turn and already left wing low, the wing does not have far to drop before its way down and then the nose begins to drop rapidly...
 
You have to really be honking on that rudder and holding serious back pressure to actually spin a Cessna / Cherokee / whatever.
I'm glad to hear this, I was beginning to worry....
 
I will say this, as a CFI I was out with a guy working on his CFI. So I was sitting left seat and I'm trying to get him to teach me the cross controlled stall. (follow along here? Sorta complicated..)

Anyway, he's not talking enough and not putting enough control input in and the plane is getting nowhere near stall. So I demonstrate....

Now, I'll be the first to admit I was pretty heavy on the controls. But that was my point. I wanted him to give more. So we set up for base to final (5,000 AGL though) and I talk us through it as I give a bunch of rudder, so it banks way over, and I say, "now Im a scared student and don't like that!" so I push a bunch of right aileron in and when the nose drops I pull hard back.

The point is I was demonstrating was this, being a little more aggressive than normal and trying to get a quiet guy out of his shell. Well when I pull back that day the plane 'snapped' around at least 150 degrees. When it happened I immediately let go of all control pressure and cobbed the power and we flew out of it. But we were inverted, in like, half a second and had we been on a real base to final even my super hero like pilot skilz may not have been able to save the day.

Again, I do not like uncoordinated close to the ground. Nobody has given a good reason to do it yet. Possibly that engine out thing but I'd still try to not need it and use it if I did.


Edit to add: the above story was in a PA-28. Figured someone may want to know...
 
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I will say this, as a CFI I was out with a guy working on his CFI. So I was sitting left seat and I'm trying to get him to teach me the cross controlled stall. (follow along here? Sorta complicated..)

Anyway, he's not talking enough and not putting enough control input in and the plane is getting nowhere near stall. So I demonstrate....

Now, I'll be the first to admit I was pretty heavy on the controls. But that was my point. I wanted him to give more. So we set up for base to final (5,000 AGL though) and I talk us through is and I give a bunch of rudder, so it banks way over, and I say, "Im a scared student and don't like that!" so I push a bunch of right aileron in and when the nose drops I pull hard back.

The point is I was demonstrating this this, being a little more aggressive than normal trying to get a quiet guy out of his shell. Well when I pull back that day the plane 'snapped' around at least 150 degrees. When it happened I immediately let go of all control pressure and cobbed the power, but we were inverted, in like, half a second.

Again, I do not like uncoordinated close to the ground. Nobody has given a good reason to do it yet. Possibly that engine out thing but I'd still try to not need it and use it if I did.


Edit to add: the above story was in a PA-28. Figured someone may want to know...

So was that a slip or a skid...?
 
A forward slip or a side slip is a "normal" maneuver that should be in every pilot's toolbag.

I don't recommend slipping in turns, although it's safe to do so if you're SLIPPING and not SKIDDING. But there are lots of times when a forward slip is appropriate:
  • You have to lose altitude after crossing trees (real 90+foot trees, not the FAA 50-footers) into a short strip.
  • You've turned final and you're a little bit high, and you've already got your gear down and full flaps.
  • or pretty much any time you want to steepen your descent path by adding some drag - maybe your headwind died or your tailwind increased and you need to steepen it up a little.
Now, if you find that you're forward slipping ALL THE TIME because you're not on a "proper" approach path, then you need to go fix that root problem with some practice. But there's nothing wrong with a forward slip.

A CFI who doesn't teach a student to be proficient in slipping is not doing the job.
 
Okay, we got pros:
- forward visibility
- increased descent angle when flaps are insufficient

Now how about some cons:
- fiery death in a burning crater.


Okay, let's compare...

Seriously, I am not putting down slips. I feel like some of the comments here towards me are "why don't you like slips?" I do like slips, slips are needed and wonderful and I hope my son grows up and marries a slip.

But...I do not like them close to the ground in a turn. On final? Sure, slip away. At altitude and you need to get down in a hurry? Slip away. On base to final? Nope, not gonna endorse it.
 
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