Former Drone Pilots Denounce 'Morally Outrageous' Program

An open letter to the MC,

If this is what PoA is going to become with the SZ gone...and even with a member of the MC participating.

Then please bring the SZ back!

:eek:
 
This is why we cannot trust some of these countries. They claim to be against radical islam, but its deeply rooted there.

Absolutely. One more great reason not to be involved over there.
 
SB couple had more attacks planned. Thousands of rounds of ammo and more bombs back at their place. Dont know if they planned to blow themselves up. I think doing as much damage as possible and suicide by cop was the plan.

just a nit, but 4500 rounds of ammo is nothing. Even gun-control Massachusetts towns/cities cannot require a permit for quantities not exceeding 10,000 rounds of centerfire ammo.
 
But, you are correct. Nothing works, at least not forever. I just want it to work long enough to live out my life. Then it becomes someone else's problem.

It's not really a problem now. The odds of you dying in a terrorist attack is tiny. You are far more likely to die in a car wreck and of course 7 times more likely than that to die flying your airplane.

Since you no longer serve in the military, it's not your problem, some other guys and gals in uniform have to sweat about it. For the vast, overwhelming majority here in the US, it is just a news story to comment on like we are doing here and therefore pretty much just entertainment.
 
The SB couple's plan seemed to be like you figure: drop the kid off with grandma, then kill as many as possible and go out in a blaze of glory. I don't know how they thought they would get back to their place for the rest of the weapons.

Well they went in shooting for less than a minute, left a remotely triggered bomb. The remotely triggered bomb never detonated, they screwed up.

So I guess the plan was to get in/get out so quickly that no one would trace them back to the house before they could load up and make another attack. They made the attack in full ski masks so no one would recognize them, and never said a word so no one recognized their voice. Fortunately one of the employees gave farook's name as he was suspicious of him, and the police went by the house shortly after the attack. That spooked the terrorists, and they ran for it. Which resulted in their death after about 1 mile.

I wouldn't know so much about this, but I took the week off from work and spent it at our place on the chesapeake with my brother, a small town called Kilmarnock. It was blowing 25-30kts that day so I didn't go striper fishing, just sat on the couch watching this whole thing go down. It was pretty wild, the car chase was live..
 
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The British Regulars were appalled that we wouldn't put on bright colors and line up in a nice row to shoot muskets at each other, and even more annoyed that civilians owned artillery and warships.

Yawn.
 
The British Regulars were appalled that we wouldn't put on bright colors and line up in a nice row to shoot muskets at each other, and even more annoyed that civilians owned artillery and warships.

Yawn.

What does this have to do with this thread? :confused: :dunno:
 
...just sat on the couch watching this whole thing go down. It was pretty wild, the car chase was live..

Like I said, this "War on Terror" is mostly just entertainment for nearly all Americans. Sadly, there are a few that will get hurt, or killed in the production.
 
What does this have to do with this thread? :confused: :dunno:


Bunch of people whining that war isn't "fair".

Never is. Never will be.

If you try to fight one "fair", you'll lose.

Additionally to point out that the concept of "fairness" in war is both ever-changing and useless.

The British stood in a nice "fair" line and were mowed down by people hiding behind trees.

Hiding behind a satellite link isn't really any different.

Dropping an atomic weapon on a couple of cities full of non-combatants wasn't "fair" either.

War is hell. Make it a bigger hell for the other side and it'll be over sooner. Until the next one.
 
Bunch of people whining that war isn't "fair".

Never is. Never will be.

If you try to fight one "fair", you'll lose.

Additionally to point out that the concept of "fairness" in war is both ever-changing and useless.

The British stood in a nice "fair" line and were mowed down by people hiding behind trees.

Hiding behind a satellite link isn't really any different.

Dropping an atomic weapon on a couple of cities full of non-combatants wasn't "fair" either.

War is hell. Make it a bigger hell for the other side and it'll be over sooner. Until the next one.

This isn't war. It's political bull crap. It's pandering for votes. It's entertainment for the masses. It's not war. We are not really at war with ISIS, or anybody else.

Therefore, bombing an apartment building with a remote control drone to kill one guy (we think is inside ?!) with little concern for who else is inside is morally wrong. We're doing it for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way.

We ani't gunna poop, so we need to really get off this pot altogether.
 
Dropping an atomic weapon on a couple of cities full of non-combatants wasn't "fair" either.

I never understood why some folks felt that those that merely made the guns, bombs, tanks, aircraft, ships, etc., should be off limits.
 
Oh no doubt in a full on conventional war, bombing factories that produce aircraft, tanks, munitions, etc. or bombing rail yards, shipyards or other infrastructure is a must do and the civilians that work there are fair game. And of course, bombing is not always precise enough to prevent a stray bomb from hitting an adjacent school or hospital. Oh well, I guess your country should not have gone to war with ours. When a country is at war with another actual country, it is not just the military that is at war but the entire country and its populace whether they are willing participants or not. Yep, it sucks.

It is a bit different though when you try to take out a single person in an apartment building with a missile in a "war on terror" such as we have now. We are not at war with Iraq or Syria or any other country over there, nor should we be. We are at war with individuals and an ideology that want to do us harm and that can hide among people that do not share that same ideology and hatred. And all we accomplish by leveling a neighborhood to kill that singular boogie man is more boogie men.

By our constant unwelcome involvement in the middle east, our overthrowing of governments, our support for Israel, etc., we have created the mess we now find ourselves in. And before anyone cries about 9/11, we created the hatred that led to that attack as well. Am I saying that 9/11 was justified and that we should not have gone after the leaders or planners of the attacks? Not at all. I am just saying that we need to understand that we keep creating the hostility that creates attacks and then our response to the attacks is to take actions that while maybe killing bad guys also creates more hostility and more bad guys. And these bad guys or terrorists look at the US as a whole as being at war with them and thereby applies the same logic as we do in a conventional war which places the entire populace at risk via terrorism because that is their only viable weapon.

The US needs leadership that is strong enough to be able to not flex our muscles at every opportunity. Unfortunately so many in this country and especially in DC want to demonstrate American might every chance they can. After all, might makes right is our mantra.
 
I never understood why some folks felt that those that merely made the guns, bombs, tanks, aircraft, ships, etc., should be off limits.

Well in WWII they weren't off limits. Because of the controversy of bombing civilian targets, the Geneva Convention was modified and the 1977 Protocol I clarified that civilians were noncombatants and off limits. Because of that, we had very restrictive ROE in the last 2 wars. I witnessed the frustration of a Col trying to get permission to get a B-1 to drop a 500 lb JDAM on a HVT. Painfully long process that would not have happened in previous wars. It's not a free for all over there like some would think.
 
I think discussions like this are way above my pay grade.
Seems to me, we elect a CIC to make these decisions.
 
It is a bit different though when you try to take out a single person in an apartment building with a missile in a "war on terror" such as we have now. We are not at war with Iraq or Syria or any other country over there, nor should we be. We are at war with individuals and an ideology that want to do us harm and that can hide among people that do not share that same ideology and hatred. And all we accomplish by leveling a neighborhood to kill that singular boogie man is more boogie men.

It appears the single person in the apartment house who is engaging in acts of terrorism tends to have the tacit approval of the other inhabitants.
 
It appears the single person in the apartment house who is engaging in acts of terrorism tends to have the tacit approval of the other inhabitants.

Maybe, maybe not. In some instances, highly likely but not in all. Either way, we created more hatred each time we kill "innocents".

How many or what percentage of the terrorists/combatants that we have killed over in the middle east have attacked Americans or had active plans to?
 
Bunch of people whining that war isn't "fair".

Never is. Never will be.

If you try to fight one "fair", you'll lose.
If you fight a war without Rules of Engagement you lose your soul. You lose moral integrity. You give up any hope for any lasting peace. That's a far higher price to pay.
 
It appears the single person in the apartment house who is engaging in acts of terrorism tends to have the tacit approval of the other inhabitants.
Sometimes you live next to a person with bad habits or stinky feet, or whatever and the economics of the situation means that you are happy to have a roof over your head. Are you advocating that the neighbors have a blanket party? BTW- that's what PsyOps operators ideally would want.
 
If you fight a war without Rules of Engagement you lose your soul. You lose moral integrity. You give up any hope for any lasting peace. That's a far higher price to pay.

Opinion, not fact, and I disagree with your position.
 
Sometimes you live next to a person with bad habits or stinky feet, or whatever and the economics of the situation means that you are happy to have a roof over your head. Are you advocating that the neighbors have a blanket party? BTW- that's what PsyOps operators ideally would want.

You claim to know PsyOps objectives?

I would hope the objective would be more along the lines of peer-pressure rather than a blanket party.
 
It's not really a problem now. The odds of you dying in a terrorist attack is tiny. You are far more likely to die in a car wreck and of course 7 times more likely than that to die flying your airplane.

Since you no longer serve in the military, it's not your problem, some other guys and gals in uniform have to sweat about it. For the vast, overwhelming majority here in the US, it is just a news story to comment on like we are doing here and therefore pretty much just entertainment.

This is a common misconception among "civilians".

In 1969 I (voluntarily) walked into a room, raised my right hand and said:
"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

A little later I took a second oath as an officer:

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God

There is no duration or end date on the Oath of Enlistment, and an officer can be recalled to duty at any time. I was recalled in 1976, then enlisted in the Army in 2012. For a lot of vets, and I'm one of them, we are honor bound to fulfill the terms of that oath until we die.
 
Well drone pilots are not, and are not trained the same as actual combat fighter pilots. So it's understandable that some may not be able to stomach killing scores of people in Afghanistan by pushing a button in Arizona. They have no skin in the game and after a time perhaps it just ends up weighing heavily on them. It has to be different than blowing someone up who's been shooting at you and trying to kill you.

So i'm guessing you'd consider a sniper taking a headshot from a thousand plus yards out in this category as well ?
 
Sometimes you live next to a person with bad habits or stinky feet, or whatever and the economics of the situation means that you are happy to have a roof over your head. Are you advocating that the neighbors have a blanket party? BTW- that's what PsyOps operators ideally would want.

Well as I tried to explain to you before :rolleyes: - if you have a problem in YOUR neighborhood and you choose to do nothing about it guess what might happen ?
 
So true I have pointed that out to many I as well never saw anywhere that the oath expired...I have six more years on the list (Age 60) after 24 years of Active service and still update my records annually...you just don't get to quit...
 
Sometimes you live next to a person with bad habits or stinky feet, or whatever and the economics of the situation means that you are happy to have a roof over your head. Are you advocating that the neighbors have a blanket party? BTW- that's what PsyOps operators ideally would want.

Negative.
 
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Lost your job? That's a bit flippant. WE disbanded the Iraqi Army as part of our great nation building color-by-numbers booklet Dick gave Dubya to keep from getting bored while Bremer burned Rome to a crisp. Manufactured demand much? We created the environment that necessitated the surge in the first place. Poor people's kids got blown up as a result of that decision mind you. That they "volunteered" due to economic draft to get blown up does not take away from the fact we created the dynamic. You don't play favorites in a game of chess you don't understand.

We then put some of them displaced iraqi soldiers all together in "social networking camp" for half a decade, antagonized the civilian population with collateral damage (all occupying forces do, we're not more guilty of it than anyone in history) then we cut them loose on the civilian population and the disorganized, equally sectarian new-puppet civilian government. Ta-da. And we try to suggest we had no hand in ISIS? LOL

I may be paid to shut up and salute sharply, but even I can count with my fingers and figure out it doesn't take a phD in international affairs to understand the anatomy of why we're hated and why our poor bleed over our own decisions. Frankly this is the Brits and French's fault back in 1916, but that distinction is frankly academic at this point.

So the educated elites who understand these sectarian dynamics merely roll their eyes (which as long as there's no draft, is all they'll do) and the defense M-I-C laughs all the way to the bank while the dissenting voices get called hippies and dismissed. I love this Country but I'm not dying so a oil n' gas nouveau riche redneck soccer mom in Katy,TX can afford $2.50 gas, $99/rt Orlando tickets and thus have the economic freedom not to have to send her kid to die for it, while she laughs as I indoctrinate mine into believing everything the military does is good because I draw a paycheck from it currently and so should he. Yeah fat chance.

It's easy to lampoon dissenting servicemembers who operate drones, as their hand in the fiasco is considered a position not deserving of credibility due to physical separation from harm, but I get their point. The world is grey; I've been smart in my ability to cherry pick assignments that hold true to me. The day the military asks me to do something I don't believe in is the day I'll quietly complete taskings under lawful orders and separate at the first opportunity. A 20 year check does not supersede my moral compass. That involves removing food from my kid's table over a principle btw, hardly an academic posture.

Now back to our regular uneducated posturing about Middle eastern political dynamics and freedom fries.....:rolleyes2:
Well said, indeed.
 
It appears the single person in the apartment house who is engaging in acts of terrorism tends to have the tacit approval of the other inhabitants.

What kind of garbage is that??! So if your neighbor was secretly brewing crystal meth in his garage, he would obviously have your tacit approval?? :rolleyes2:
 
Opinion, not fact, and I disagree with your position.


What "facts" are there with regards to souls? I don't think there is any factual evidence that there is such a thing as a soul. However, I agree with you. If you don't have a soul in the first place, no matter what you do, you can't lose it.
 
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I think it's pretty laughable to think we're going to stop people in villages we're bombing from being radicalized when we can't even accomplish that in our own prosperous, safe, and comfy nation.

So, unless we're prepared to light up the entire middle east in nuclear fire and kill 'em all... which, no, I'm definitely not.... what are we doing? What are we accomplishing? Every single strategy we've tried over there has made things worse than they were before. We armed ISIS, we had a hand in Saddam Hussein taking power in Iraq, we once trained and armed Osama Bin Laden, this is just scratching the surface. You can follow this crap back at least as far as WWI. No, of course we didn't do this on purpose. We had good intents, we had smart people strategizing, we had our reasons. We thought it was essential.

The takeaway though is.... IT HAS BACKFIRED EVERY TIME. Yeah people want to kill us/destroy us/whatever. Always have, always will. This is not a pre-WWII "peace in our time" moment. This isn't even about good guys vs bad guys anymore.

Terrorism is not a nation state. We can't win a few campaigns, sign surrender papers and end it. We will never be able to defeat them in any traditional sense, we can surely kill a lot of them, disrupt their networks, etc but in doing so we recruit more terrorists. Likewise, they cannot defeat us. The sovereignty of the US was never in danger. They've certainly got the ability to kill a bunch of us too. It would seem nearly impossible for us to stop that completely... we certainly haven't pulled it off yet. We can sure kill more of them in retribution though, if we choose.

This seems like a never-ending cycle. It also seems to me that the only thing we have not really tried is simply walking away from it. If we're not in their world, they don't have a lot of good reason to be coming into ours. Sure they're fanatics and part of a cult of death and they hate our freedoms and all that crap... but I'm pretty darn sure that's not why they send suicide bombers over to murder our civilians.
Good to see some honest truth. Too many of us like to bury our head in the sand as we drink the lies of our government's warmongering foreign policy. America makes her own enemies to perpetuate an endless cycle of war. I share the opinion of others here. It's way past time to get the hell out of the ME.

"ISIS and Al Qaeda: The Illegitimate Children of U.S. foreign policy. Open your eyes."

~Min. Louis Farrakhan 9/6/15
http://youtu.be/e40G5jrpaoQ

Oh, you forgot to mention who armed and backed Saddam's eight year war with Iran.
 
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What kind of garbage is that??! So if your neighbor was secretly brewing crystal meth in his garage, he would obviously have your tacit approval?? :rolleyes2:

I suspect that he is attempting to make a point in his usual obtuse obscure manner.

I think he was pointing out the flaw in thinking that everyone in an area could be legitimate targets just because of proximity to terrorists.
 
What are the rules of engagement followed by ISIS?

What are the rules of engagement followed by youths out polar bear hunting? You see white man has thing he invented called civilization, and no matter how hard white man tries to share civilization it only seems to work for his kind.
 
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