Formation Flying Over A Congested Area?

FormerHangie

FormerHangie

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FormerHangie
Just a few minutes ago, I was in my house eating lunch when I heard a loud machine made sound from outside. I sounded like either someone using a tree chipper, or propeller tips approaching supersonic speed. The sound went away, then returned, then went away, and returned once more, so I went outside to investigate. It turned out to be what appeared to be a pair of T-6s (the WW II ones) flying in formation, and well below 1000 feet. They continued circling, with at least one of them spinning his engine up periodically and making that loud sound. They eventually went away, to be replaced by a flight of four Stearmans in a diamond formation. They were really low, probably 500 feet or so. The only reason I could think that they were doing that was as part of some sort of Independence Day observance. Where I live is probably 10 nm from Cobb County McCollum airport, which is not exactly a hotbed of recreational aviation, and maybe 12 nm or so from Dobbins AFB.

While I thought it was very entertaining, my wife found it downright unnerving. There is nothing around here but hills, trees, and buildings, the chances of pulling off a forced landing are pretty dismal. I'm not thinking this was a really good idea, whatever the reason it was done.
 
Doesn't sound like anything unsafe at all happened. Which direction from Cobb County are you? There are a number of other airports in that area which it sounds like you may be very close to.
 
What did she find "unnerving" about it? What did you find not a "good idea" about it?

Have you done any formation flying? (The engine noise is simply the necessary throttle movement to maintain position... some folks can do it smoother, but in general, you find out what the throttle is really for during your first formation flights... you've probably never moved it that much or that consistently changing it, ever...) It's fun... go find some folks that do it correctly and try it sometime.

If the pilots briefed and flew it correctly, they were apprised of and accepted whatever risks the flight entailed. The "prospects" of a forced landing there are the same as if they weren't in formation and just flying over. The collision risk is much higher, if we're talking accurate risk assessment.

And there's no particular reason to only do it on Independence Day. Heck, if you own a Stearman and can FIND three other Stearman owners to go fly formation that you trust, you're a lucky lucky individual.
 
Was that your first time seeing/hearing warbirds? It sounds like it was. I suggest you get out more to explore them.
 
To answer your question...it depends.
 
ZeroPapaGolf said:
Doesn't sound like anything unsafe at all happened. Which direction from Cobb County are you? There are a number of other airports in that area which it sounds like you may be very close to.
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It's probably about 12 nm to PDK, and 25NM to CNI and FTY, but in different directions

denverpilot said:
What did she find "unnerving" about it? What did you find not a "good idea" about it?

Have you done any formation flying? (The engine noise is simply the necessary throttle movement to maintain position... some folks can do it smoother, but in general, you find out what the throttle is really for during your first formation flights... you've probably never moved it that much or that consistently changing it, ever...) It's fun... go find some folks that do it correctly and try it sometime.

If the pilots briefed and flew it correctly, they were apprised of and accepted whatever risks the flight entailed. The "prospects" of a forced landing there are the same as if they weren't in formation and just flying over. The collision risk is much higher, if we're talking accurate risk assessment.

And there's no particular reason to only do it on Independence Day. Heck, if you own a Stearman and can FIND three other Stearman owners to go fly formation that you trust, you're a lucky lucky individual.
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What did she find unnerving? That they were close together and low, flying over her house. What did I find to be not a good idea? Mostly, flying low over a congested area. The guys in the Stearmans particularly, if something required a forced landing, would have so little time to choose which bad option they wanted to take, I could easily see them crashing and setting someone's house on fire.

At 3000 feet over the countryside, sounds like fun, at 500 feet over a congested area, that seems like a bad idea to me,
 
FormerHangie said:
It's probably about 12 nm to PDK, and 25NM to CNI and FTY, but in different directions



What did she find unnerving? That they were close together and low, flying over her house. What did I find to be not a good idea? Mostly, flying low over a congested area. The guys in the Stearmans particularly, if something required a forced landing, would have so little time to choose which bad option they wanted to take, I could easily see them crashing and setting someone's house on fire.

At 3000 feet over the countryside, sounds like fun, at 500 feet over a congested area, that seems like a bad idea to me,
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Sounds silly considering what you already know about aircraft, engine failures rates, and where you'd point yours if the windmill quit.

Apply rational thought instead of emotion and report back.
 
Hope a piece of falling sky doesn't hit either of you.
 
FormerHangie said:
At 3000 feet over the countryside, sounds like fun, at 500 feet over a congested area, that seems like a bad idea to me,
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There is always the one that wants to ruin everyone's fun.

I live close to being under final for the runway here. You don't know what noise is until the Ospreys start doing practice approaches.
 
I bet they hadn't filed a flight plan either. It's a miracle the children weren't injured, or worse.
 
Try watching the blue angels on graduation day at Annapolis, Maryland! They are in close formation, very very low directly over the town not once but several times. If there was a problem, they would take half the town out, not to mention the noise! Tremendous crowd which eats it up, myself included. As for "rational thought" my stearman had to be shut down at 1500 feet over farmland due to a lousy mechanic and his lousy annual performed four -5 flight hours before. It could have happened three hours earlier over the Chesapeake bay with a national geo. photographer in the front seat filming a sailboat race. Just dumb luck. Stearmans glide about like the blue Angels jets. Like a stone.
 
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The "air boss" is staging them out of sight until it's their turn to make their entrance.
The same thing has been happening around SWF all weekend for the big air show over there.
Had a flight of P-51's circling the house for awhile today.
 
denverpilot said:
Apply rational thought instead of emotion and report back.
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Emotion? Gotta side with FormerHangie on this one. Sounds like a clear violation of the FARs to me. 1000' AGL is the minimum in a populated area. Lower, of course, if you're near an airport in the pattern setting up to land.
 
If they are directly over your house and the engine quits no worries they aren't landing there unless they are in a short wing piper then all bets are off.:)

It is really hard to estimate altitude.
 
Do you live near a major intersection I could use to figure out more or less where you are? There are still plenty of areas in West and NW Cobb that are not particularly developed. In fact, I'd say if they were anywhere in West Cobb other than right over Town Center Mall, there wouldn't be a violation at 500', and if the airplanes were over the mall, they were inside the pattern at McCollum.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Emotion? Gotta side with FormerHangie on this one. Sounds like a clear violation of the FARs to me. 1000' AGL is the minimum in a populated area. Lower, of course, if you're near an airport in the pattern setting up to land.
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And he has no clue if they had a waiver, no idea how high they actually were, not even the slightest clue about why the engine was making different revs...

Yeah, I'm going to go with... "The people in the formation probably had 1000% more clue than he did." Or you for that matter. He went so far as to call them curse words with zero information. ZERO. NONE. Nada. Zilch. Guesswork.

I was responding to his general sense of unease and his wife's stronger sense. Those are emotions.

Show facts, and snitch to the FAA if you think you have them. It won't have changed the outcome (a safe flight) any.

Or just enjoy seeing airplanes in the sky. Lord knows there's at least thirty other people who'll be calling that the sky is falling and have already left voice mails. Airplanes are dangerous, don't you know? Nobody should fly those noisy dangerous things! Everyone who does is a crazy person who has a death wish! The media told me so.
 
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SoCal RV Flyer said:
Emotion? Gotta side with FormerHangie on this one. Sounds like a clear violation of the FARs to me. 1000' AGL is the minimum in a populated area. Lower, of course, if you're near an airport in the pattern setting up to land.
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It's very hard to accurately estimate altitude from the ground, especially someone inexperienced as it sounds like the OP is. For example, "spinning his engine up periodically and making that loud sound". That's not experienced aviator talk. And as Denver points out, it's not that black and white anyway.

As for a populated area, he says he's 12 NM from PDK and 25NM from both CNI and FTY. If those are true, he's way out on the edge of town.
 
Something unusual is happening. . .I don't have understanding if it; people are scaring me, 'cause they are doing something I haven't seen. Call the government, make them stop. It shouldn't be allowed if it's not something I'd like to do - it isnt necessary.
 
Sundancer said:
Something unusual is happening. . .I don't have understanding if it; people are scaring me, 'cause they are doing something I haven't seen. Call the government, make them stop. It shouldn't be allowed if it's not something I'd like to do - it isnt necessary.
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Sounds like they need to see it more often. :)

Too bad it's hard to get that many vintage aircraft with qualified formation pilots together at the same place and the same time anymore. :(
 
Not familiar with the area, but looking at the chart and using all the distances the OP posted from various airports it narrows things down to an area just on the edge of the yellow "congested" areas. It seems entirely possible that they were all flying over what is not officially recognized as a congested area and therefore perfectly legal at 500agl.
 
denverpilot said:
And he has no clue if they had a waiver, no idea how high they actually were, not even the slightest clue about why the engine was making different revs...

Yeah, I'm going to go with... "The people in the formation probably had 1000% more clue than he did." Or you for that matter. He went so far as to call them curse words with zero information. ZERO. NONE. Nada. Zilch. Guesswork.

I was responding to his general sense of unease and his wife's stronger sense. Those are emotions.

Show facts, and snitch to the FAA if you think you have them. It won't have changed the outcome (a safe flight) any.

Or just enjoy seeing airplanes in the sky. Lord knows there's at least thirty other people who'll be calling that the sky is falling and have already left voice mails. Airplanes are dangerous, don't you know? Nobody should fly those noisy dangerous things! Everyone who does is a crazy person who has a death wish! The media told me so.
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Sounds like it was on the edge of town, so quite near, if not over a congested area. Not that hard to judge (for a pilot at least) the difference between 500' AGL and 1000'. The general public, not so much. Didn't see any curse words in his post. I'm all for buzzing-altitude formation passes...at airshows.
 
Ahh correct. It was the other guy in the other thread worried about the seaplane landing that cursed. Hangie is innocent.
 
kyleb said:
Do you live near a major intersection I could use to figure out more or less where you are? There are still plenty of areas in West and NW Cobb that are not particularly developed. In fact, I'd say if they were anywhere in West Cobb other than right over Town Center Mall, there wouldn't be a violation at 500', and if the airplanes were over the mall, they were inside the pattern at McCollum.
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Sure. The eastern part of their route would have taken them directly over the center of Roswell, say the intersection of Georgia Hwys 9 and 120. The western part would have them over Johnson Ferry Rd. and Shallowford Rd. They were nowhere near the pattern at McCollum, they were circling, I assume waiting to do a flyover somewhere

denverpilot said:
Sounds silly considering what you already know about aircraft, engine failures rates, and where you'd point yours if the windmill quit.

Apply rational thought instead of emotion and report back.
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I have. I enjoyed the show, but I don't think flying that low over a densely populated area is a good idea.

ZeroPapaGolf said:
It's very hard to accurately estimate altitude from the ground, especially someone inexperienced as it sounds like the OP is. For example, "spinning his engine up periodically and making that loud sound". That's not experienced aviator talk. And as Denver points out, it's not that black and white anyway.

As for a populated area, he says he's 12 NM from PDK and 25NM from both CNI and FTY. If those are true, he's way out on the edge of town.
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Sorry if you didn't like my description, but I've never heard an aircraft operated like that before. The noise of one of the T-6's is what got my attention. I assume a T-6 has a constant speed prop similar in workings to that on a 182, I could be mistaken. I would assume that when flying formation, you'd make small adjustments with the manifold pressure rather than large adjustments with propeller pitch, because that's what it sounded like he was doing.

The T-6's were somewhat low, like pattern altitude or slightly below. The second pass of the Stearmans took them really low, like news helicopter low.

PDK is to the southeast of where I live, CNI is due north, FTY is southwest. https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0247707,-84.4070443,3900m/data=!3m1!1e3
I'm in a close in suburb.

Dave Theisen said:
I'm bummed they didn't come over my house, it sounds like you live pretty close by.
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I enjoyed the show, if they are planning to do it again I'd like to know when so I can be home. But I still don't think it was wise. How-evah, it bothered my wife, and for every person like me, there are 100 like her.
 
I mixed up your "I'm curious about his operation" post with the "we're all going to die because a seaplane flew over children!!!" post, Hangie. No worries. LOL.
 
I'm surprised I didn't see or at least hear them. I'm just down the road off Shallowford, between Johnson Ferry and Sandy Plains. I was working outside all day.
 
I saw two (!) Stearmans in Cable's pattern today, while returning from a trip to San Diego. Beautiful machines.
 
Shepherd said:
Had a flight of P-51's circling the house for awhile today.
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How freakin' cool was that to see..!!!!!

A few years ago there was a P-51 doing aerobatics over the area I live. I mean for about 20 minutes I got to watch him. I don't know if he saw me on my roof but he made a high speed pass right over me at traffic pattern altitude, which is about 600 feet above me, then landed at the airport. I had never heard a P-51 at full throttle before, but I'll never forget it.
 
Damn dude, that's awesome. I wish I could get some action like that. If my girl was upset about it, I'd give her something to be more upset about. Cite some stats or something.
 
Mention to your wife that the danger from driving her car on a road with oncoming traffic passing her less than two feet away, at a closure rate often approaching or exceeding 100mph, with a driver who likely has zero professional training experience, and NO MEDICAL doesn't even phase her -- but this event which has an infinitesimally small likelihood of effecting her personal safety bothers her??

Might be time to stay home and hide in the closet. Most people have no idea on how to compare the risk exposure of the really dangererous things they do but are familiar with, to non-events that are new and "scary."
 
Zeldman said:
How freakin' cool was that to see..!!!!!

A few years ago there was a P-51 doing aerobatics over the area I live. I mean for about 20 minutes I got to watch him. I don't know if he saw me on my roof but he made a high speed pass right over me at traffic pattern altitude, which is about 600 feet above me, then landed at the airport. I had never heard a P-51 at full throttle before, but I'll never forget it.
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That's definitely one of the perks of having one of the top three tax attorneys in the country based at our airport. It's a rare weekend we don't get to hear a Merlin. Thankfully it appears his kid also has the bug.

Hopefully he also gets enough of dad's money if he doesn't have his own, to keep the hangar full of WWII noisemakers in the air when dad eventually hangs it up.

I checked my bank account just in case. Nope. It won't be me. LOL.
 
If there are trees or buildings around, it's almost impossible to identify an aircraft below 1000 feet. I live on an airport, and see dozens of planes come in and out every day. Unless I'm standing in a field, the only time I can see aircraft clearly is while they are in downwind at pattern altitude or above. Otherwise, they are below the tree or building line except for brief glances between them.
 
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FormerHangie said:
Sorry if you didn't like my description, but I've never heard an aircraft operated like that before. The noise of one of the T-6's is what got my attention. I assume a T-6 has a constant speed prop similar in workings to that on a 182, I could be mistaken. I would assume that when flying formation, you'd make small adjustments with the manifold pressure rather than large adjustments with propeller pitch, because that's what it sounded like he was doing.

The T-6's were somewhat low, like pattern altitude or slightly below. The second pass of the Stearmans took them really low, like news helicopter low.

I enjoyed the show, if they are planning to do it again I'd like to know when so I can be home. But I still don't think it was wise. How-evah, it bothered my wife, and for every person like me, there are 100 like her.
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Some of your assumptions are slightly wrong.
Formation flying is done with the throttle and not with prop changes. If it takes small changes or large, that's just what it takes to maintain formation. The T-6 has a long prop and always has that rap that goes with it while flying, making small throttle changes sounds like a lot more on the ground. That's just a characteristic of the plane, perfectly normal.

In the Twin Cities, we have a group of T-6's that fly formations over fly-ins, Memorial Day Services, 4th of July parades and just last week over a car show with over 11,000 cars and I'm just guessing well over 50,000 people, all at or near pattern altitude.

It's too bad that so many people have no knowledge about anything to do with aviation, and anytime they see or hear anything out of the ordinary they get fearful and think something's wrong like a terrorist attack or someone's about to crash. Education is the key here.
 
Zeldman said:
How freakin' cool was that to see..!!!!!

A few years ago there was a P-51 doing aerobatics over the area I live. I mean for about 20 minutes I got to watch him. I don't know if he saw me on my roof but he made a high speed pass right over me at traffic pattern altitude, which is about 600 feet above me, then landed at the airport. I had never heard a P-51 at full throttle before, but I'll never forget it.
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A number years ago, I was working in the yard, and there were 6 WWII fighters orbiting the farm next to me at about 1500' agl for 10 minutes or so. A P47D, an F4-U and 4, P-51Ds. Then I heard something coming in from the west.
It was the B-29, FiFi. The planes, did a break maneuver and pulled into formation on each side of the B-29, and they all flew off to the east. The kids and I were going crazy.
My wife was pretending she had no idea who we were.
 
Many years ago I was under the hood of a truck when I heard several radial engines. I was still about 10 years away from becoming a pilot, but I still looked up and saw a B-17 and a couple of T-6s and what I believed was a P-47 flying in formation overhead. About 20 minutes later 2 P-80s came by overhead. All were heading to the airport for a weekend static display.

I kick myself now, but I had a race that weekend and at the time that was more important to me.
 
FormerHangie said:
Sorry if you didn't like my description, but I've never heard an aircraft operated like that before. The noise of one of the T-6's is what got my attention. I assume a T-6 has a constant speed prop similar in workings to that on a 182, I could be mistaken. I would assume that when flying formation, you'd make small adjustments with the manifold pressure rather than large adjustments with propeller pitch, because that's what it sounded like he was doing.
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Ok, since you're obviously unfamiliar with formation flying I'll tell you a little bit about what you were hearing. Lead sets the pace. Generally this is a briefed IAS. Lead will set his prop and MP to maintain this speed and generally not touch the settings after that. The wingman or wingmen then adjust as needed to maintain spacing. This is NOT a static maneuver. You are constantly adjusting and moving around. It's hard to see from the ground, but when you're in the air you're constantly moving around and adjusting. If you start to fall back you have to add enough power to catch lead, then when you're closing on lead you have to take that power out again. The more you fall back or get ahead the larger the power corrections are. If you're really good your corrections are small, but it's not at all uncommon to go from wide open throttle to the idle stop trying to get into position. In addition wing generally leaves the prop (if they have a constant speed) at the fine pitch setting for best power. This means big changes in throttle are also going to make changes in RPM, and you're gonna hear that on the ground.

In short, what you heard was absolutely normal and absolutely necessary for formation flight.

Here's a good video a friend posted some years back while learning. You can hear all the commentary and instruction and see how much things are moving around relative to each other.

 
FormerHangie said:
Just a few minutes ago, I was in my house eating lunch when I heard a loud machine made sound from outside. I sounded like either someone using a tree chipper, or propeller tips approaching supersonic speed. The sound went away, then returned, then went away, and returned once more, so I went outside to investigate. It turned out to be what appeared to be a pair of T-6s (the WW II ones) flying in formation, and well below 1000 feet. They continued circling, with at least one of them spinning his engine up periodically and making that loud sound. They eventually went away, to be replaced by a flight of four Stearmans in a diamond formation. They were really low, probably 500 feet or so. The only reason I could think that they were doing that was as part of some sort of Independence Day observance. Where I live is probably 10 nm from Cobb County McCollum airport, which is not exactly a hotbed of recreational aviation, and maybe 12 nm or so from Dobbins AFB.

While I thought it was very entertaining, my wife found it downright unnerving. There is nothing around here but hills, trees, and buildings, the chances of pulling off a forced landing are pretty dismal. I'm not thinking this was a really good idea, whatever the reason it was done.
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How can you tell what their AGL was from the ground? I'd love to have seen the show. So would my wife.

StinkBug said:
Not familiar with the area, but looking at the chart and using all the distances the OP posted from various airports it narrows things down to an area just on the edge of the yellow "congested" areas. It seems entirely possible that they were all flying over what is not officially recognized as a congested area and therefore perfectly legal at 500agl.
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The yellow on a sectional denotes areas that might be visible at night, not "congested" areas. The FAA won't tell you what areas are congested, so be careful out there.
 
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