Foreflight Update

You're visualizing it right. That amount of real estate doesn't really restrict my outside view that much. From the G-Force website:
GF1set_300.jpg

Not sure I'd get on too well with that installation. I like to look in the direction when I'm turning left, like when I'm in the pattern.
 
Not sure I'd get on too well with that installation. I like to look in the direction when I'm turning left, like when I'm in the pattern.
Me too. It really hasn't been a problem. I thought it would be when I first started doing it but it just hasn't.
 
Not sure I'd get on too well with that installation. I like to look in the direction when I'm turning left, like when I'm in the pattern.

That's a PhotoShop hack too... and no one (hopefully!) sits that low, do they?
 
It would be really nice to have an option for separate taxi geo-referencing. As VFR pilot I don't need geo-referenced approach plates but taxi diagrams with my position on it will be really handy at unfamiliar airports. I looked for an app that does just that and didn't find any :(
 
It would be really nice to have an option for separate taxi geo-referencing. As VFR pilot I don't need geo-referenced approach plates but taxi diagrams with my position on it will be really handy at unfamiliar airports. I looked for an app that does just that and didn't find any :(

I've already suggested exactly that. No dice yet, but pop an email to team at foreflight dot com and let them know you want it.
 
Thanks for suggestion. I sent them an email. Thats certainly better then bitching at PoA forum :)
 
Thanks for suggestion. I sent them an email. Thats certainly better then bitching at PoA forum :)

Let me restate once again that I certainly don't speak for ForeFlight (nor do I know jack about their plans aside from what's in the next version) - But I expect that the taxi-diagrams-only thing will happen at some point, probably after some negotiations with Seattle Avionics. :fcross:
 
Here is ForeFlight response:

Thanks for the suggestion. We will consider that for a future release.
 
Here is ForeFlight response:

Thanks for the suggestion. We will consider that for a future release.

A thoughtful and carefully-crafted response. :wink2:
 
Oh.

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... ADS-B will never duplicate the utility or quality of the WX provided by XM, not to mention the additional services.

It remains a lost opportunity.
What does XM provide except the data relay mechanism? I'm not sure what value they add beyond making it available.
 
Since the IPAD 2 was announced today, and my primary reason (excuse) for getting one would be Fore Flight and a few other flying apps, I have a question: How much data space does Fore Flight take up? I am sure the data requirements will increase as they add functionality and the database gets bigger, but does it clean up after itself? After a few dozen upgrades will I be using up space with old, redundant data? Or does it do a good job of cleaning out old data files when they are updated.

And does anyone have any updates on how well the external GPS antennae works in the cockpit?
 
Since the IPAD 2 was announced today, and my primary reason (excuse) for getting one would be Fore Flight and a few other flying apps, I have a question: How much data space does Fore Flight take up?

Not much really, read on.
I am sure the data requirements will increase as they add functionality and the database gets bigger, but does it clean up after itself?

Yes. The bigger data chunk is how many charts you choose to download, but they're not big files.

Colorado for example, is 87 MB. California and Texas are a couple of the largest at over 200 MB, but we're still talkin' very small here. I have everything turned on (Airport/Taxi Diagrams, Terminal Procedures, VFR Charts, IFR Charts, and IFR Low Enroute) except for IFR High Charts. Turning on and off the IFR High slider doesn't seem to make it want to download anything new, so I'd guess that all of the data is included in a single file and the sliders are just toggles for what you want displayed.

You can choose what you want to keep in your device by State and those charts will always be in your iPad or iPhone. (Example: I keep less States in my iPhone just because I'm usually using the iPad, but Colorado is always in the phone as backup.)

The software alerts you to download newer versions when chart revisions come out. Part of the process is that after the software has successfully downloaded the new charts for an area, it "installs" them, which also removes the old ones.

About the only reason I don't leave every State turned on isn't a space consideration, it's a download time thing. Even on WiFi, it can take a while to download everything and "install" them. If I were flying something faster and covering more area, I wouldn't hesitate to do it, but since I'm typically flying within a few States, I just turn on other States outside of Colorado, Wyoming, Kansas, when I head that direction. Otherwise if an update were to come in while I was on the trip and/or not near WiFi, the download time on 3G wouldn't be a "plug the phone into a charger and leave it downloading while you go to dinner or overnight" in the hotel.

After a few dozen upgrades will I be using up space with old, redundant data? Or does it do a good job of cleaning out old data files when they are updated.
See above. It seems to keep itself cleaned up nicely. No problem.
And does anyone have any updates on how well the external GPS antennae works in the cockpit?
There is no external GPS antenna... just a couple of external full GPS receivers with integrated antennae.

I can't really comment on this as I bought the 3G version of the iPad which includes AGPS on-board the iPad. I have had the iPad on my lap, on the floor, and soon -- since I bought the RAM Mount kit -- on the yoke of the 182 and have yet to see it not sync up. But that's the internal GPS, not the external ones you can buy on the aftermarket for the non-3G iPads.

There are two external GPS's available that are compatible, and they're listed on the Foreflight website. One plugs into the bottom of the iPad and since the iPad doesn't care which orientation it's in, you could also make that the "top" just by flipping it over... but I wouldn't want the extra "thing" sticking out from the iPad -- that would bother me that I'd break it off in the slot. The other GPS attaches via a cable, and I'd rather do some cable routing and put it up on the glareshield or somewhere it had a decent view of the sky, and have the extra cockpit cable to deal with.

And actually, I'd prefer not to deal with either one really... which is why I went with the on-board GPS version/3G version of the iPad 1.

With the iPad 2 just being announced today, I haven't seen any reports on whether both the AT&T 3G chipset and the Verizon chipset both have GPS in them. My assumption would be "Yes", but you may want to wait until the thing is actually in the hands of places like engadget and gdgt and other tech reviewers who will tear them apart and read the chipset ID numbers and figure out exactly what the hardware design is before committing to buying the iPad 2 with a particular carrier's chipset in it. The likely scenario is that the AT&T chipset is the same as iPad 1, and includes GPS. The wildcard/unknown is the Verizon chipset.

Or... maybe if we're all lucky, Apple did away with using the cellular chipset as the GPS source, and put a real GPS chipset/receiver in the things. Again, we probably won't know until someone tears one open unless the folks who have developer licenses already have access to this information under Non-disclosure Agreements, until the release today.

Might be worth asking Foreflight directly if...
a) You're in a hurry to order.
b) You're going with the Verizon version of the 3G iPad 2.

That's probably the "most risky" scenario... but even then, you could just add one of the external GPS units if it doesn't work.
 
Since the IPAD 2 was announced today, and my primary reason (excuse) for getting one would be Fore Flight and a few other flying apps, I have a question: How much data space does Fore Flight take up?

ForeFlight the app itself takes up slightly under 20MB. That's Megabytes, not Gigabytes.

The data will depend on how much you decide to download. The entire data set - All sectionals, TAC's, low and high enroute charts, approach plates (incl. SIDs and STARs), airport diagrams, and A/FD data) for all 50 states plus some international data takes up 7 GB (Yes, Giga this time. ;)) Note that near a data cycle changeover, you'll have two sets of data downloaded, so if you're planning on using all of the data for the whole US, a 16GB iPad may not be enough as it could fill up for a couple of days every 4 weeks when the new data cycle is about to start. If you're only going to use a couple of states, or if you're a VFR-only pilot and won't be downloading the plates and IFR enroute charts, you won't use nearly as much data.

I am sure the data requirements will increase as they add functionality and the database gets bigger, but does it clean up after itself? After a few dozen upgrades will I be using up space with old, redundant data? Or does it do a good job of cleaning out old data files when they are updated.

ForeFlight *does* clean up after itself. Once data has been expired, if you replace it with current data, the old data will automatically be deleted.

So, let's say on this data cycle (Feb 10-Mar 10) you choose to download all the data for Florida, Georgia, and Alabama. Then, you decide you aren't going to be doing any flying in Alabama for a while, so you turn Alabama off.

On March 7th-8th, you'll see a little badge next to the downloads tab indicating the number of data chunks waiting for download. Tap the green "Download" button and it'll download them all. For the time being, you'll have BOTH cycles' data for Florida and Georgia, plus the Feb 10-Mar 10 data for Alabama.

After the new data cycle becomes effective at 0901Z, the old data for Florida and Georgia will be deleted automatically. The data for Alabama, not having been replaced, will remain and be flagged as "Expired" but will still be there, just in case - Or you may choose to delete it. It will not automatically be deleted unless/until it is replaced with current data.

So yes, ForeFlight cleans up after itself quite nicely. :yes:

Turning on and off the IFR High slider doesn't seem to make it want to download anything new, so I'd guess that all of the data is included in a single file and the sliders are just toggles for what you want displayed.

All of the IFR High Enroute charts are in a single file, you either get it or you don't - It's not done by state like the others.

You can choose what you want to keep in your device by State and those charts will always be in your iPad or iPhone. (Example: I keep less States in my iPhone just because I'm usually using the iPad, but Colorado is always in the phone as backup.)

Yup - I do something similar - I have everything on my iPad (between being a beta tester and being a complete aviation geek, I actually use it all too!) but I only keep Wisconsin and any other states I'm planning on flying to soon on the iPhone.

The software alerts you to download newer versions when chart revisions come out. Part of the process is that after the software has successfully downloaded the new charts for an area, it "installs" them, which also removes the old ones.

Not correct - The old ones will hang around (and be used) until the new ones become effective at 0901Z on the rollover Thursday. THEN they get deleted.

About the only reason I don't leave every State turned on isn't a space consideration, it's a download time thing. Even on WiFi, it can take a while to download everything and "install" them.

Like I said, it's about 7GB. On my 10Mb/s cable modem connection, it takes about 2 hours. (With network overhead, 10Mbit/s =~ 60MByte/min, or 3.6GB/hour).

I have done it over 3G (I still have unlimited data :D) and that takes 6-7 hours. But you'd only ever do that in a pinch.

There is no external GPS antenna... just a couple of external full GPS receivers with integrated antennae.

Yes - An important distinction.

I can't really comment on this as I bought the 3G version of the iPad which includes AGPS on-board the iPad. I have had the iPad on my lap, on the floor, and soon -- since I bought the RAM Mount kit -- on the yoke of the 182 and have yet to see it not sync up. But that's the internal GPS, not the external ones you can buy on the aftermarket for the non-3G iPads.

Same here. The internal GPS performs surprisingly well, considering its internal antenna and less-than-ideal placement in the cockpit. I haven't had any major issues with it.

Now, if you're up above FL250 and going 300+ knots, you need an external unit. In those cases, the internal GPS just can't keep up with itself - By the time it computes the next position, it's far enough from the previous one that it thinks it's wrong and it chokes. Or so I've heard, I've never gone that fast with it. ;)

The other GPS attaches via a cable, and I'd rather do some cable routing and put it up on the glareshield or somewhere it had a decent view of the sky, and have the extra cockpit cable to deal with.

Huh? The other one is Bluetooth - No cable.

The likely scenario is that the AT&T chipset is the same as iPad 1, and includes GPS. The wildcard/unknown is the Verizon chipset.

I wouldn't really call that a wildcard. The iPhone 4 on Verizon has GPS, doesn't it?

Or... maybe if we're all lucky, Apple did away with using the cellular chipset as the GPS source, and put a real GPS chipset/receiver in the things.

Aaaaaaaargh! This is my most-hated misconception about the iPad.

The GPS in the iPad *IS* a "real" GPS. Period, end of story. Yes, it is part of the cellular chipset - But that's because it can get a quick initial fix by getting assistance from the cell network, so you don't have to wait more than a few seconds to get that initial fix like you do.

You do NOT need to have cellular signal to get or keep a fix. It simply gets you the initial fix much faster than a "real" GPS. So, we would NOT be "lucky" if Apple went to using a "real" (non-a)GPS. :no:
 
All of the IFR High Enroute charts are in a single file, you either get it or you don't - It's not done by state like the others.

Interesting. I turned it on on the iPhone and it didn't "want" to download a new file. Bug?

I also played around with the "Reload Download List" in the Settings App, and it never wanted to download anything then either. Thought that was interesting. Maybe that's not the purpose of that slider?

Latest version, on iPhone, on WiFi at the time.
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Not correct - The old ones will hang around (and be used) until the new ones become effective at 0901Z on the rollover Thursday. THEN they get deleted.

Forgot it'd hold on to the old ones while they were still valid. Have only had to deal with that once... apparently I've not caught the update cycle that often. Cool, a new way to tell when I'm not flying enough. :D
[/QUOTE]

Like I said, it's about 7GB. On my 10Mb/s cable modem connection, it takes about 2 hours. (With network overhead, 10Mbit/s =~ 60MByte/min, or 3.6GB/hour).

Are you doing the maximum bandwidth math for your connection, or are you measuring actual download speeds. I've seen Foreflight's servers serving data significantly slower than my maximum bandwidth available when I'm on the work dual-DS3 speed connection to Level 3's backbone.

Of course, that router is "outsourced" and handled by the idiots at a company called Masergy who couldn't figure out what was wrong with a DS3 from DEN to California for two weeks. :rolleyes2: Since it was IT's problem, not mine, I just stayed out of it. It's a five minute test to set up end-to-end, and then the downtime equals how long you want to run the test pattern.

I never looked to see who Foreflight's hosting is handled by or which backbone they're on, just 'cause I'm too lazy to sniff the IP address from the iPhone at my border analysis box with tcpdump that sometimes is connected where it should be (heh heh) between the outgoing switch on the home network and the Cable Modem. Mainly 'cause it's turned off right now, and hasn't been on in a while...

I wasn't particularly interested until now. Might be fun to see how they're handling authentication and encryption... if they are... or if they're open to a Distributed Denial of Service attack via "He who dies with the most bandwidth wins" techniques. :thumbsup:

Assuming they have round-robin DNS as a bare minimum with multiple boxes responding for whatever name their download app is using, for redundancy... the choice may not be the optimal server when coming from Level 3, or there could be a bottleneck elsewhere. Or their download server could be throttled. It's a rare server I run into that I can run full-data-rate from work from. There's a couple of .gov Linux mirrors that'll max out the pipe though... those are fun.

Sniffing H.323 and SIP at work is getting boring. Maybe it's time to go spelunking on my home network again someday soon and see what some of the newer software apps around here that I've not sniffed yet, are actually doing. You find interesting things... hardcoded usernames and passwords sent in cleartext... or none at all... no encryption on personal data... software is notoriously bad for hiding its naughtiness in how it handles network connections. And server admins on the other end are also naughty... DNS servers without DNSSEC... round-robins with dead machines in them... all sorts of fun stuff to find.

But then again, that's a little too much like "work" to sit around sniffing stuff here at the house anymore. Maybe 10 years ago it was interesting... now I seem to always have something more important to do.

I have done it over 3G (I still have unlimited data :D) and that takes 6-7 hours. But you'd only ever do that in a pinch.

It's a good reason to keep only States you're actually flying in, in your activated list. I did have one nav cycle pop up when I was away from home and staying at a house where WiFi was some "newfangled gadget" they hadn't yet ever purchased. I downloaded over 3G, and had unlimited service at that time. Now I don't... but they upped the cap to 4GB so I'd still be okay if I weren't downloading the entire U.S.

(They were a Mac household, and by two days into that silliness, I just went over to their hard-wired Ethernet-fed iMac and turned on WiFi network sharing so my gadgets would work without having to grab their Ethernet cable and turned off automatic Sleep mode on their iMac. Put it all back before I left. LOL!)

Huh? The other one is Bluetooth - No cable.

Oh it is, eh? Okay. I don't own one. I assumed it had a cable.

I wouldn't really call that a wildcard. The iPhone 4 on Verizon has GPS, doesn't it?

Who says the chipset in the iPad 2 is the same chipset as the VZ iPhone 4? ;)

(Yes, it's about 99.9% likely that it is, but until we've seen a tear-down... which is what I kept saying... no one really knows. Developers access the location data in code via the Location Services API... so Apple can change the hardware at-will as long as the API keeps working for Devs.)

Aaaaaaaargh! This is my most-hated misconception about the iPad.

The GPS in the iPad *IS* a "real" GPS. Period, end of story. Yes, it is part of the cellular chipset - But that's because it can get a quick initial fix by getting assistance from the cell network, so you don't have to wait more than a few seconds to get that initial fix like you do.

You do NOT need to have cellular signal to get or keep a fix. It simply gets you the initial fix much faster than a "real" GPS. So, we would NOT be "lucky" if Apple went to using a "real" (non-a)GPS. :no:
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I should have been more careful with this comment. I have read some reports that the chipset has problems with exceedingly long "cold-start" GPS acquisition -- if it can't get a 3G cellular signal at all.

I therefore always fire up Foreflight in GPS mode on the ground and would endeavor seriously to avoid ever having to do a "cold-reboot" of the iPad in-flight.

Scenarios where the iPad would have to "cold-start" the GPS are things like a completely dead battery or an iOS crash, core dump, and restart. Not going to happen very often.

(By the way, this is where the majority of security-related problems on the iPad look to be about to spring forth from in the security-research world... at least one person has claimed -- but not published in the wild -- that forcing the iPad to core dump gives access to encryption keys and other personal data in RAM... one of the oldest Unix tricks in the book. iOS doesn't apparently have a mechanism (or it isn't being used) to keep certain data out of core dumps if you run the thing out of memory. And memory is tied directly to swap (on the flash) without an out-of-memory killer or mechanism to say "nope, I won't allocate that much to you", so getting it to core is a simple matter of allocating all available memory. iOS will keel over like a deer shot with a rifle for that old trick, apparently. We'll see if anyone can figure out how to exploit it fully... before Apple plugs that iOS hole. That one's pretty straightforward, but there's certainly got to be other just-as-effective ways that aren't quite so "brute force" to core the OS, keep the core file in flash, and grab it after a reboot.

Anyway, back to the on-board GPS... it has some obscure little engineering problems that are just pesky on the ground... and ones I'm willing to live with. It wasn't designed to do aeronautical navigation, after all.

How the CDMA chipset (VZ) handles ALL of this... there's no data out there yet on which chipset really got used, and no one has looked over the datasheet to see what the worst-case scenarios are for start-up time from a cold-start with no CDMA clock and location data to sync to.

Someone with a good faraday cage or completely RF dead zone for cellular could test this pretty easy, but it'd have to be a repetitive test with different numbers of GPS birds in view overhead each time, preferably very few and way out at the horizon.. to get the true worst-case.

I lost my access to a seriously RF-tight enclosure a couple of years ago.

An dead zone up in the mountains somewhere a long way from people, a campfire in the middle of nowhere, an engineering notebook, and beer. The true hacker way. +1 for being down in the bottom of a valley to block the sky view of the GPS constellation so your testing could be done in truly awful conditions. :)

Now you have me thinking -- are there any Apps that show the currently tracked GPSs in the cluster and signal strengths for the iPad, or is that data not available via the Location Services API? I know you get an accuracy number (Foreflight uses it), but can you get raw GPS receiver data from the hardware?

If that data is available, it would be nice to have a "Satellites in view" signal strength page inside Foreflight or on another App on the iPad.
 
Interesting. I turned it on on the iPhone and it didn't "want" to download a new file. Bug?

Just tried it on mine and it worked fine... Try again?

I also played around with the "Reload Download List" in the Settings App, and it never wanted to download anything then either. Thought that was interesting. Maybe that's not the purpose of that slider?

That's more of a tech support tool - It forces FF to check for data.

Are you doing the maximum bandwidth math for your connection, or are you measuring actual download speeds.

Yes. ;)

Er, well, using speedtest.net it seems that about the best I actually get out of my connection is roughly 10Mbps. I don't think they sold it to us as having any particular rate. It's just a cable modem after all.

But I have also timed full-data-set downloads as part of the testing process, and found that it took me something like 1:52 and used 18% of the battery - Kind of impressive considering the amount of data transfer and the fact that it took just about 18% of Apple's stated "normal" battery life.

I've seen Foreflight's servers serving data significantly slower than my maximum bandwidth available when I'm on the work dual-DS3 speed connection to Level 3's backbone.

Well, it's kinda hard for anyone except Jesse and co to keep up with that. ;)

Who says the chipset in the iPad 2 is the same chipset as the VZ iPhone 4? ;)

(Yes, it's about 99.9% likely that it is, but until we've seen a tear-down... which is what I kept saying... no one really knows. Developers access the location data in code via the Location Services API... so Apple can change the hardware at-will as long as the API keeps working for Devs.)

Right - But it would be a boneheaded move for them to remove GPS functionality when customers are expecting it. Too boneheaded for even Apple to make.

I should have been more careful with this comment. I have read some reports that the chipset has problems with exceedingly long "cold-start" GPS acquisition -- if it can't get a 3G cellular signal at all.

It's not great, but I've done it and I don't think it was significantly longer than cold-starting your average Garmin.

I therefore always fire up Foreflight in GPS mode on the ground and would endeavor seriously to avoid ever having to do a "cold-reboot" of the iPad in-flight.

I've gotten out of ForeFlight in flight on the iPhone (had to take pictures, dontcha know) and went back in and it grabbed a position quite quickly - I think that since I hadn't been out of FF for all that long, it just went "Hey, my last position isn't stale yet, I can probably just work from there."

And memory is tied directly to swap (on the flash) without an out-of-memory killer or mechanism to say "nope, I won't allocate that much to you", so getting it to core is a simple matter of allocating all available memory. iOS will keel over like a deer shot with a rifle for that old trick, apparently.

That doesn't sound right, unless it was jailbroken. If an app starts using too much memory, iOS sends it a warning and executes the application delegate routine "applicationDidReceiveMemoryWarning" if the developer has implemented it. That gives the app one chance to (quickly) shed some of the memory it's using. Should it not work, or if it runs out of memory again within a specified amount of time, iOS simply terminates the app without further warning. So I don't know how you could possibly do what you're describing using a non-modified iOS. :dunno:

How the CDMA chipset (VZ) handles ALL of this... there's no data out there yet on which chipset really got used, and no one has looked over the datasheet to see what the worst-case scenarios are for start-up time from a cold-start with no CDMA clock and location data to sync to.

Your Google-Fu is weak, son. ;)

The GSM (AT&T) iPhone 4 uses the Broadcom BCM4750. The CDMA (Verizon) iPhone 4 uses the Qualcomm MDM6600.

Now you have me thinking -- are there any Apps that show the currently tracked GPSs in the cluster and signal strengths for the iPad, or is that data not available via the Location Services API? I know you get an accuracy number (Foreflight uses it), but can you get raw GPS receiver data from the hardware?

Nope... Just looked at the Core Location framework reference for iOS and there's nothing in there for retrieving individual satellite data.
 
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