Foreflight Update

[EppyGA]

Seen on Facebook

Big news: the latest update of ForeFlight HD is in App Store and introduces geo-referenced plates and taxi diagrams!

Extra $$ for the new features, but probably worth it.

Details here

http://blog.foreflight.com/2011/02/20/foreflight-georeferenced-approach-plates-taxi-diagrams/

 

[midlifeflyer]

Considering that the add-on for WinX Pro is $99 on top of the $99 for the software, the extra $75 for the $75 Foreflight sounds like a very good deal. I already upgraded and can hardly wait to try it out.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Considering that the add-on for WinX Pro is $99 on top of the $99 for the software, the extra $75 for the $75 Foreflight sounds like a very good deal. I already upgraded and can hardly wait to try it out.

Concur - $75 + $75 for ForeFlight vs. $99 + $99 for both WingX and Beacon.

And even if you buy the most expensive iPad ($829), all of the above pale in comparison to the Garmin 696 for $3,000 plus $700/year for all the database subscriptions.

 

[denverpilot]

$150/yr also means that you blow past the "evil" ChartCase Pro pricing now in two years instead of four, price-wise. I just realized that. Argh.

I'm not going back to CCP for reasons I've blogged and what-not elsewhere, but have to keep everyone "honest" here. FF still is missing a large chunk of the pre-flight planning and auto-routing code in CCP, and other stuff I've detailed elsewhere... And now will technically cost you more after two years.

Disclaimer, I bought CCP for $250 during a sale, but they have that sale all the time. If I needed to fly to all of CONUS, CCP would be higher, but their charts are ala-carte... I won't have need for a Las Vegas trip set this year, for example, so I paid for those only during the cycle(s) I flew to Las Vegas.

Granted no matter how you slice it, electronic are cheaper than paper. So I'm not complaining. But I think some kind of regional ala-carte on georeferencing would have a better feel than "Wow, this one feature available in every $100 automotive GPS doubled the price of this product!"

At $75/year the product's a steal, and probably a loss-leader once you have to staff 24/7 tech support. (Minimum 6 staff full-time to overlap shifts and cover vacations for a one-call at a time call-center. Then add bodies for every hour of the day where you expect two, three, or four simultaneous phone calls.)

At $150/year that's probably "right" but savvy people will be looking for a way to buy the tech and not have the subscription to the TECH, just to the charts. There's a break-even between "renting" and "buying", even with software.

Just thoughts. $150 ain't bad if major features and updates keep coming. If the software feature-set stagnates for say, 6 months, the "subscription" looks like less value than buying a software package outright.

It'll be interesting to see where this model goes. It's a very crowded niche right now with lots of options, if you include hardware GPS handhelds. Garmin could drop prices 50% on their units and be right in the thick of it and probably still turn a profit on every unit now that they've moved aviation products over to the same hardware as automotive products for the smaller units.

CCPs weird "buy two" sale on their hardware right now is telling too. I read into that that they overbought hardware and are sitting on inventory after the lawsuit debacle. They also see that hardware combo as something almost as valuable as a Garmin 696 style platform. That nebook they're using costs easily half what they sell it for.

Right now I'm still square in the FF camp due to the hardware doing so many other useful things for me that I'd be insane not to own the platform by itself. FF is just "gravy". But it was also the "killer app" that drove me to buy this oversized iPod Touch.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

$150/yr also means that you blow past the "evil" TSOWWDNS pricing now in two years instead of four, price-wise. I just realized that. Argh.

Fixed that for you. In case you're wondering, TSOWWDNS = "That Software Of Which We Do Not Speak."

FF still is missing a large chunk of the pre-flight planning and auto-routing code in CCP, and other stuff I've detailed elsewhere...

But do you want something to help you plan the flight and fly it, or do you want something to plan the flight for you? An awful lot of that stuff in the other thread seemed gimmicky to me.

And now will technically cost you more after two years.

Did TSOWWDNS give you free lifetime data subscriptions?

If I needed to fly to all of CONUS, CCP would be higher, but their charts are ala-carte... I won't have need for a Las Vegas trip set this year, for example, so I paid for those only during the cycle(s) I flew to Las Vegas.

Aha.

Personally, I'm of the mind that I like having things available even if I don't expressly need them, so that if I decide I want them I've already got them. I sure as heck don't fly all over the country every day, but I do a LOT of "fantasy flight planning" and chair-fly lots of situations, so I really like having the nationwide coverage. That's why I use a Mac, too - I probably wouldn't have paid extra for Gigabit Ethernet, and in the first 1.5 years I had this MacBook Pro I don't think I used it a single time - But boy, it was sure nice last week when I wanted to transfer 13GB of files and nobody had a USB stick anywhere near that big handy, but there were Ethernet cables lying everywhere... Plug, chug, done.

Granted no matter how you slice it, electronic are cheaper than paper.

Yup. $75/year for ForeFlight gets you the entire country, plus some international data. Simply keeping ONE each paper A/FD, sectional, low enroute, and one book of approach plates up to date through the year costs $140.

So I'm not complaining.

Yes you are.

But I think some kind of regional ala-carte on georeferencing would have a better feel than "Wow, this one feature available in every $100 automotive GPS doubled the price of this product!"

Um... Which automotive GPS gives you georeferenced approach plates?

$150 ain't bad if major features and updates keep coming. If the software feature-set stagnates for say, 6 months, the "subscription" looks like less value than buying a software package outright.

The features and updates will keep coming. We (beta-testers) are already at work testing the next version before the current version even hits the app store. 3.0 came out *just* prior to Christmas 2010. Here we are 14 months and 9 revisions later, and it has come a LONG way. Consider that touch planning didn't happen until 3.6, but I bet you're already used to it. So, averaging a new release every 6 weeks or so, I'd say the guys are doing GREAT.

Right now I'm still square in the FF camp due to the hardware doing so many other useful things for me that I'd be insane not to own the platform by itself. FF is just "gravy". But it was also the "killer app" that drove me to buy this oversized iPod Touch.

Me too - I bought the iPad figuring I could use it for flying and for textbooks when I went back to school. It has turned into a device that I use for WAY more than that. I think between the laptop, the iPad, and the iPhone, the iPad is probably the most useful and the one I would least like to be without.

 

[ChrisS]

Concur - $75 + $75 for ForeFlight vs. $99 + $99 for both WingX and Beacon.

And even if you buy the most expensive iPad ($829), all of the above pale in comparison to the Garmin 696 for $3,000 plus $700/year for all the database subscriptions.

I choose to go the expensive 696 route, I like the idea of a dedicated unit which is more compact, has little screen glare and a near instant startup. I looked at a friend's new PC pad/GPS/Foreflight solution and I was not convinced, and I think he was having second thoughts as well.

 

[Sticky1]

Not worth the update. Maybe 25 extra.......

This will encourage people to fly IFR when they r not rated.

 

[SCCutler]

What is the delay with XM availability?

Is it a technical limitation of the iPad, a technical limitation of the developer, or a lack of interest in addressing that need?

As long as weather is not available on the iPad, Foreflight and its various competitors in the iPad arena are going to have their market severely limited.

I want an iPad with ForeFlight, but I will not do away with XM, and two portables in one cockpit is one too many.

Kent: you have their ears - make 'em fix it!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Concur - $75 + $75 for ForeFlight vs. $99 + $99 for both WingX and Beacon.

And even if you buy the most expensive iPad ($829), all of the above pale in comparison to the Garmin 696 for $3,000 plus $700/year for all the database subscriptions.

I have a Garmin 495 (don't really need the XM weather) but, even with geo-referenced approach plates* iPad+FF does not replace it. I see FF as purely an EFB - a replacement for paper charts/ AFD, etc. A paper replacement with situational enhancement to be sure, but still just a paper replacement.

No geo-referencing for SIDs and STARs - apparently the charts are not sufficient scaled to make it work.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I choose to go the expensive 696 route, I like the idea of a dedicated unit which is more compact, has little screen glare and a near instant startup. I looked at a friend's new PC pad/GPS/Foreflight solution and I was not convinced, and I think he was having second thoughts as well.

Just for the heck of it, I timed the startup. From hitting the power button for a *cold* boot to being in ForeFlight *with* a position fix: 39 seconds. But you pretty much never cold-boot the thing. From its normal standby mode, seven seconds.

Physically, the iPad is less than 2 inches larger in length & width, and is 1/4 of the depth and about 2/3 the weight of the 696... So I don't think it's overly unwieldy. The screen is nearly 50% larger diagonally with over twice the pixels, too.

Not sure what you mean by "PC pad/GPS/ForeFlight solution." If it's a "PC pad" then it's not ForeFlight and we're not even talking about the same thing.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not worth the update. Maybe 25 extra.......

This will encourage people to fly IFR when they r not rated.

Only if they have a death wish...

Personally, I was not one of the people who really wanted georeferencing, and frankly I probably wouldn't pay $75 for it either. I don't have situational awareness problems on approach - And the one time I had the georef available and flew an approach in actual with it, by the time I was on the plate I was briefed and done, and never even saw the plane on the plate 'cuz I was looking at the panel.

But, I did help out at the ForeFlight booth at OSH and it seemed like EVERYBODY was asking whether we had georef plates.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What is the delay with XM availability?

Is it a technical limitation of the iPad, a technical limitation of the developer, or a lack of interest in addressing that need?

I think it's kind of a combination thereof. I haven't seen any XM receiver hardware that's compatible with the iPad (there was one posted here, but it's iPhone-only).

In addition, with ADS-B just around the corner, and the massive price difference between XM WX ($360, $600, or $1200/year) and ADS-B (free), I don't think it's worth it to implement XM WX right now.

As long as weather is not available on the iPad, Foreflight and its various competitors in the iPad arena are going to have their market severely limited.

Considering that it is not meant to be a GPS, it's meant to be an EFB - I disagree. And I don't know the subscriber numbers, but I think they're anything but "severely limited."

Now, I agree that in-flight weather would be GREAT - But most people don't fly enough to make $50/month worth it (I think that without lightning, the $30/month package isn't worth anything unless you have a stormscope). Now, free/month, OTOH - That's worth it!

So, you will see in-flight weather eventually. Last I heard was Eric talking to someone at OSH about some sort of Bluetooth combo GPS/ADS-B receiver that's in development by some other company. I would imagine that when that is out, you'll see weather support. Of course, we need ADS-B service to be more available as well!

BTW, there *is* an ADS-B receiver available for the iPad right now. It's expensive ($1200 or so, IIRC) and their software doesn't look very good IMO. But if you want it, it does exist.

I want an iPad with ForeFlight, but I will not do away with XM, and two portables in one cockpit is one too many.

Don't think of it as replacing your 496 - Think of it as replacing your charts, A/FD, etc. That's what it's really for.

Kent: you have their ears - make 'em fix it!

Well... If ForeFlight were *my* company - I wouldn't waste resources on XM when ADS-B is right around the corner. So I'd be a pretty bad salesman for the idea.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have a Garmin 495 (don't really need the XM weather) but, even with geo-referenced approach plates* iPad+FF does not replace it. I see FF as purely an EFB - a replacement for paper charts/ AFD, etc. A paper replacement with situational enhancement to be sure, but still just a paper replacement.

That is what ForeFlight really is for.

But I have to ask - What does the 495 do, really, that an iPad with ForeFlight doesn't?

No geo-referencing for SIDs and STARs - apparently the charts are not sufficient scaled to make it work.

I just looked at a bunch of SIDs and STARs and every single one of them says "NOTE: Chart not to scale." So, I guess that'd be why!

 

[SCCutler]

...
Well... If ForeFlight were *my* company - I wouldn't waste resources on XM when ADS-B is right around the corner. So I'd be a pretty bad salesman for the idea.

I guess I need a reasonable definition of "right around the corner," especially as it relates to reasonably comprehensive coverage.

WxWorx has a robust and well-crafted XM receiver that is USB standard compliant. What is the problem with using that with an iPad?

 

[jesse]

I guess I need a reasonable definition of "right around the corner," especially as it relates to reasonably comprehensive coverage.

WxWorx has a robust and well-crafted XM receiver that is USB standard compliant. What is the problem with using that with an iPad?

Apple.

 

[Clark1961]

But I have to ask - What does the 495 do, really, that an iPad with ForeFlight doesn't?

Fit nicely on a yoke mount...

 

[SCCutler]

Apple.

Oh.

---

The ADS-B and FIS-B services are not scheduled for completion until "2013-2014," and this is a federal government program, so I'm waiting for the inevitable delay. Even if it's done then, it's still ground-based, which means its utility on departure will be limited in many areas. Also, anticipate a substantial value-add for for the XMWX, as FIS-B comes on-line; the ADS-B will never duplicate the utility or quality of the WX provided by XM, not to mention the additional services.

It remains a lost opportunity.

 

[timwinters]

This will encourage people to fly IFR when they r not rated.

Only if they have a death wish...

Agreed.

I wasn't tempted by my 182 to fly IR before I got my rating simply because it had a glideslope receiver.

 

[ChrisS]

Just for the heck of it, I timed the startup. From hitting the power button for a *cold* boot to being in ForeFlight *with* a position fix: 39 seconds. But you pretty much never cold-boot the thing. From its normal standby mode, seven seconds.

Physically, the iPad is less than 2 inches larger in length & width, and is 1/4 of the depth and about 2/3 the weight of the 696... So I don't think it's overly unwieldy. The screen is nearly 50% larger diagonally with over twice the pixels, too.

Not sure what you mean by "PC pad/GPS/ForeFlight solution." If it's a "PC pad" then it's not ForeFlight and we're not even talking about the same thing.

I don't know, probably an IPad then, it was a touch screen computer which had greasy fingerprints all over it.

I mount my 696 on the yoke which I find just about ok. I found that the 'IPad' was just too large to do this comfortably, even though it was thinner it was the screen size that was the problem. The worst thing though was the glare, which was terrible compared to the Garmin (especially with the greasy marks all over it) and the boot time was slow....oh, and I have XM Weather on mine.

 

[midlifeflyer]

But I have to ask - What does the 495 do, really, that an iPad with ForeFlight doesn't?

Everything except the weather that a 496 does.

I used charts with my 495. Now I use ForeFlight with my 495.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I guess I need a reasonable definition of "right around the corner," especially as it relates to reasonably comprehensive coverage.

Last I heard was that we were supposed to have ConUS ADS-B coverage by 2012. I'll add "Maybe," because as you note, it is a government program! But it's a pretty high-profile one that a lot of people want to get done, which should help.

WxWorx has a robust and well-crafted XM receiver that is USB standard compliant. What is the problem with using that with an iPad?

USB? Well, you'd have to drop another $100 on the "Camera Connection Kit" to get a USB port.

Bluetooth is a possiblity. I'm not sure what profile the WxWorx box uses nor whether the iPad supports that profile (or profiles) - But the iPad does support bluetooth GPS these days, so there is hope.

But, it's not as simple as "insert tab a into slot b." Even if they do hook up, all you have is a stream of useless data until you rewrite your app to decode and display that data. To do all that on top of a separate map and have it all be infinitely zoomable is, to make the understatement of the year, non-trivial.

Note, of course, that I do not speak for ForeFlight. I'm just a lowly beta tester. And I'm under NDA, so I can't give you any juicy details even in the rare case that I do know them. For all I know, they'll announce WxWorx support tomorrow.

Apple.

I don't think Apple is doing anything that would prevent use of the WxWorx box unless it uses an unsupported Bluetooth profile... And I have no idea what it uses.

Fit nicely on a yoke mount...

Touché!

With the particular RAM mount setup that I have, it fits nicely in the Diamond, though only in a couple of very specific spots (and I'm not mounting it on the stick). I need another screw kit to mount the second ball on the cradle, so I haven't done a good yoke mount on it yet, but it certainly will require some creativity.

Also, anticipate a substantial value-add for for the XMWX, as FIS-B comes on-line; the ADS-B will never duplicate the utility or quality of the WX provided by XM, not to mention the additional services.

Can you expand on that? What makes you think the utility and quality of weather services from ADS-B will be worse than XM? And what "additional services" are you speaking of?

The worst thing though was the glare, which was terrible compared to the Garmin

IMO, the glare is a problem right up until you actually turn the iPad on. Then, you don't notice it any more, since your eyes are focusing on the data on the screen instead of on whatever's being reflected on the blank screen.

Everything except the weather that a 496 does.

So... Like what? Sure, ForeFlight doesn't have a panel page, a terrain page, and it doesn't connect to a portable traffic device/GTX330 or Garmin radios.

OTOH, the georef taxi diagrams give you the equivalent to SafeTaxi, you've got the same AOPA airport directory info (plus data from a few other sources that you don't have on the Garmin), you've got georef plates, you've got your position on actual charts instead of a unit-generated map...

No hate on Garmin, I love their stuff - And I think an Aera 510 or 560 plus an iPad with ForeFlight makes a great, usable, fairly redundant system that's easy even for renters to get something out of. But, the iPad is way more important to me than the Garmin - I rented a 496 for 6 months a couple of summers ago and it was great, now I own the iPad and I know if given a choice of one or the other, I'll go with the iPad.

Now, of course, I *am* spoiled these days because I'm flying a bird with G1000 that has the XM weather datalink on it, so I get the best of both worlds. Maybe I've been lucky so far, but I've really only *needed* to use the XM weather once, and it pretty much just verified what I was seeing out the window. (Turn left, maintain VFR, air-file, turn back right, fly home.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

So... Like what? Sure, ForeFlight doesn't have a panel page, a terrain page,

Thanks for answering your question. I sort of noticed that terrain part when I had an engine emergency in the clouds over inhospitalble terrain and went below radar contact during my diversion.

I also use the Garmin in "heads-up" mode - with a suction cup mount. That's simply not a mode that I would want to use my iPad in.

There are others - features that count for you is (somewhat obviously) different than those that count for me. And what counts for me may well change as time goes on.

 

[ChrisRikli]

Dudes, you can't compare and iPad + FF to a Garmin anything. It's apples and oranges. Saying stuff like "FF blows because it lacks XM Weather" is like saying "a 172 blows because it won't climb with one engine out like a Baron will."

 

[Everskyward]

With the particular RAM mount setup that I have, it fits nicely in the Diamond, though only in a couple of very specific spots (and I'm not mounting it on the stick). I need another screw kit to mount the second ball on the cradle, so I haven't done a good yoke mount on it yet, but it certainly will require some creativity.

I would think that as big as the iPad is there wouldn't be too many good places to mount it. I looked at the RAM website. This arrangement would seem to obscure many of the instruments and gauges.

And this location would make it hard to enter anything, especially in turbulence, because you would have a pretty far reach.

Of all the solutions the kneeboard might be the best, but it's still pretty big to hold on your lap.

 

[timwinters]

I would think that as big as the iPad is there wouldn't be too many good places to mount it. I looked at the RAM website. This arrangement would seem to obscure many of the instruments and gauges.

I mounted my iPad on a RAM yoke mount and nothing is blocked that wasn't also blocked by the 496 mounted on the yoke (my number two radio and xpdr which are mounted low). But that's my panel layout....

 

[midlifeflyer]

Of all the solutions the kneeboard might be the best, but it's still pretty big to hold on your lap.

Maybe your lap .

I've been using my lap and it's smaller than my old kneeboard.

 

[denverpilot]

Well... If ForeFlight were *my* company - I wouldn't waste resources on XM when ADS-B is right around the corner. So I'd be a pretty bad salesman for the idea.

Somehow I don't like this, since I see the tons and tons of wasted money already spent on ADS-B by government as having to be paid back by someone... Government is never free, and rarely less expensive than the private sector.

Of course, it's going to eventually happen anyway now so I see your point.

But the private sector beat them to all of this, and ADS-B is already outdated tech before it even gets fully-implemented. Which also comes as little surprise from government.

In its current form, it's also unencrypted (not even close to best practices for data networks these days) and ridiculously easy to jam, and "jamming" isn't always malicious. I've chased down a few spurious transmitters in my day that the FCC didn't have the time nor the resources to care about.

"Trusting" an unauthenticated, unencrypted transmission from a "user" (aircraft) to tell the truth about where any particular aircraft is in the sky while removing the harder to replicate and less error-prone RADAR transponder and primary RADAR seems foolhearty to the data networking engineer in my head.

Also curious how badly the "hidden node" syndrome of data networks built out of individual transmitters that can't always "see" each other in the RF side of things will play into overall network bandwidth and performance.

Not saying XM doesn't have problems too... Satellite-based one-way comms with relatively low gain receive antennas on aircraft in heavy precipitation isn't all that great a design either.

I'm just not buying 100% that ADS-B will meet the hype. Nothing in tech ever quite does, it's more a matter of "How far will it miss the mark?" in a traffic-dense environment.

All RF data networks work great when only handling 1/10 of the anticipated future user load and with no real-world terrestrial interference sources, intentional or otherwise, and so few users that the data all looks rational.

These are all very generalized comments. I haven't taken the time to dig for tech details on ADS-B yet because it's been touted as "the next big thing" from almost back to when I started flying. I find that technology that hits the right price point to perceived need ratio flies off the shelves almost from day one. Even during the "maximum hype" of ADS-B the deep-pocketed aircraft owners weren't buying, and haven't been yet... So they obviously have the means and have done the cost/benefit analysis and said, "Nay" at their Board meetings.

Almost everything ADS-B offers other than FAA controller visibility to the data is available now and "possible" at great cost to the aircraft operator. Whether ADS-B is cost effective is probably moot, since it will be mandated with no significant proof of it being a better system. The "better" part for the FAA is that it moves responsibility for position reporting to my avionics and lowers their costs for RADAR, so I see their motivation.

Call me skeptical still that it'll be any "better" than the current system. Although as many have pointed out, the current system was at one time a BACKUP to paper strips and controllers who could separate aircraft without RADAR, through sheer skill, and that skill is slowly being lost as we become dependant on RADAR to cram more airliners into a smaller space.

 

[denverpilot]

I mounted my iPad on a RAM yoke mount and nothing is blocked that wasn't also blocked by the 496 mounted on the yoke (my number two radio and xpdr which are mounted low). But that's my panel layout....

I also have purchased the RAM yoke and suction cup mounts and will be trying out various combos as soon as the airplane is airworthy again...

I added the "angle bracket" to the yoke mount to try to have it come over the top of the larger 182 yoke instead of coming up from underneath, while still lowering it to not block the lower panel. Will play with that some too, I'm sure.

And none of the photos I've seen so far show that the iPad and FF will work in "landscape" mode, turned 90 degrees. I fully intend to try that out also.

Might head out to the hangar to play with it prior to it being towed back into the shop. If I do, I'll try to get photos to share.

 

[timwinters]

Nate,

Try mounting it up-side-down to allow the mount to come over the top but still lower the unit. That's what I did and it works well. The iPad doesn't care which way's up.

 

[Everskyward]

Maybe your lap .

You may have a point there.

I'll admit that I have only played with an iPad in flight for a few minutes in someone's airplane and I never really got past the, "Hey look at this!" stage. That plus wondering why the town of Sterling, CO stayed in one place while the rest of the map moved. It must have been a glitch in the map merging program.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Thanks for answering your question. I sort of noticed that terrain part when I had an engine emergency in the clouds over inhospitalble terrain and went below radar contact during my diversion.

Certainly good to have, when you need it.

When I was out your way with the 496 I couldn't get it to shut up. "Terrain, Terrain! Pull up! Pull up!" I wanted to say, "I know, I know! Shut up! Shut up!" (Yes, I did turn it off eventually, but when mountain flying, it's a really bad idea to go heads-down to do such things, as the rocks are very close...)

I also use the Garmin in "heads-up" mode - with a suction cup mount. That's simply not a mode that I would want to use my iPad in.

So, the 496 is above the glareshield then? Or am I visualizing it wrong? Definitely agree that the iPad shouldn't be up there. Then again, I probably wouldn't even put the 496 up there, since it would be blocking a small part of useful window space. The way I mount it in the DA40, it's blocking only my view of the pilot-side air vent.

There are others - features that count for you is (somewhat obviously) different than those that count for me. And what counts for me may well change as time goes on.

No doubt that the combo you have is the best way to go right now, IMHO - Well, it would be if you had XM weather. That gives you the best of both worlds, plus a fair amount of redundancy.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I would think that as big as the iPad is there wouldn't be too many good places to mount it. I looked at the RAM website. This arrangement would seem to obscure many of the instruments and gauges.

That's a really bad Photoshop hackjob. Look at the upper-left hand corner of the iPad (it's "shaved off") and there are some irregularities near the master switch as well. The picture is taken at an angle from the center of the cockpit, but you're looking at the iPad straight-on.

But the BIGGEST reason you can tell this is a Photoshop hackjob: It's not even running an iPad app! It looks kind of Windows-y but it's not the latest version of JeppView for Windows... But this is what the Jepp app for the iPad looks like:

That's all to say, "The iPad ain't really THAT big." That picture is not a realistic representation of how much room it takes in the cockpit. (RAM mount website fail.)

It IS big enough that you do need to be careful where you mount it, but I've been able to mount it on the left side of the DA40 and on the yoke of the 182 in such a fashion that it doesn't block anything.

About the best picture I have of the iPad in the cockpit right now is this one:

It's taken from the right seat and (obviously) at night, so you can't see the mounting hardware (it's all just behind the iPad) or the way it looks for me - And the way it looks is that the right edge of the iPad screen is to the left of the PFD. If you look at this pic of a DA40 panel, what I'm blocking is just the air vent to the left of the G1000. The iPad ends up *just* closer to me than the glareshield:

I'll have to remember to get pictures next time.

Of all the solutions the kneeboard might be the best, but it's still pretty big to hold on your lap.

Definitely have to turn the orientation lock on before you put it on the kneeboard though or it'll be flipping all over the place.

 

[SCCutler]

My main issues with ADS/B - FIS-B are:

1. Not rolled-out yet except in limited areas;
2. Not useful on the ground in most areas.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I added the "angle bracket" to the yoke mount to try to have it come over the top of the larger 182 yoke instead of coming up from underneath, while still lowering it to not block the lower panel. Will play with that some too, I'm sure.

Angle bracket? Or did you do the same thing I did? I bought a 1" arm with a ball on each end so that I can use multiple arms. I then bought the "A" arm and the "B" arm. Now, I can twist and turn it every which way and put the iPad exactly where I want it.

And none of the photos I've seen so far show that the iPad and FF will work in "landscape" mode, turned 90 degrees. I fully intend to try that out also.

That's how I usually use it when it's not mounted, but for approach plates it works much better in portrait orientation, so if it's mounted in the plane I have it in portrait. It's also awfully wide for a yoke mount in landscape (I think you'd have to offset it to the right, and ensure you could still box the controls, and make sure it wasn't so offset as to put in right aileron pressure for you).

That said, the most useful landscape spot I've found for it is to the right of the MFD in the DA40.

What RAM really needs is an iPad cradle with a ball exactly in the middle that allows for rotating the iPad when mounted.

Nate,

Try mounting it up-side-down to allow the mount to come over the top but still lower the unit. That's what I did and it works well. The iPad doesn't care which way's up.

Yup - Mine is actually mounted "upside down" (home button on top) in the DA40 picture I posted above.

 

[denverpilot]

Angle bracket? Or did you do the same thing I did? I bought a 1" arm with a ball on each end so that I can use multiple arms. I then bought the "A" arm and the "B" arm. Now, I can twist and turn it every which way and put the iPad exactly where I want it.

Nah, I "done got" this... which wasn't a package together from GPSCity just a couple of weeks ago (methinks they saw my order adding that extension plate to the yoke kit that had the rubberized 1" ball ... those folks at GPSCity pay close attention. I like 'em.) :

http://www.gpscity.com/ram-mount-yoke-clamp-base-with-standard-arm-extension-assembly.html

The difference is, I turned the extension the other direction... downward. Seems like that'll go over the 182's "big" yoke but I haven't tried it yet. (You're going to make me drive to the hangar and fire up some lights so I can try it and take pictures aren't you? Haha... dang it! I don't wanna go be depressed looking at the dead airplane! Oh well, might as well. Maybe you'll see some photos in an hour or so. I promised GPS City some photos too, but then the plane went down for multiple MX's, and... I haven't done it yet.)

That's how I usually use it when it's not mounted, but for approach plates it works much better in portrait orientation, so if it's mounted in the plane I have it in portrait. It's also awfully wide for a yoke mount in landscape (I think you'd have to offset it to the right, and ensure you could still box the controls, and make sure it wasn't so offset as to put in right aileron pressure for you).

Ahh, good real-world experience there. I'm sure as soon as I tried to box the yoke from stop to stop I'd have been unhappy with landscape... I may yet be unhappy with portrait... I like to crank the 182's seat all the way up... and even the yoke sometimes hits my thighs. Will see.

That said, the most useful landscape spot I've found for it is to the right of the MFD in the DA40.

I have an enormous amount of "free space" on the right side now that we removed the ADF, but I'm not convinced a right side yoke mounting would be good. That "clip" thing RAM makes for the glareshield would put it up where it'd block the engine instruments, so that'd never work. My "backup plan" is the suction cup mount, wedged inbetween me and the panel on the left side, while figuring out how not to block the airspeed indicator.

What RAM really needs is an iPad cradle with a ball exactly in the middle that allows for rotating the iPad when mounted.

Does your cradle have the two mounting points or just one? My cradle's ball mounting (which I replaced with that angled bracket instead) isn't centered, but there's another one in a weird "corner" position. I figured if the angles get weird in the "center" position, I might be able to use that "corner" one.

Yup - Mine is actually mounted "upside down" (home button on top) in the DA40 picture I posted above.

[/QUOTE]

Oh, ugh. That's going to bug me, but I'd get used to it if I had to do that. Just a "I know having it upside down will bother my left brain" kinda thing... haven't tried it yet.

Okay, Karen's out at a rehearsal tonight... so maybe I'll just head to the hangar and take some glamour shots in various positions.

The iPad, not me, you twisted people!

I have to go home and let the 16 year old doggy girl out first... maybe she'll get a ride to the airport and a couple of french fries in this "process" since I'm guessin' I'm going to grab some fast food to make this run to the airport not be finished up at 10PM...

It's more fun than going home and working on taxes!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Does your cradle have the two mounting points or just one? My cradle's ball mounting (which I replaced with that angled bracket instead) isn't centered, but there's another one in a weird "corner" position. I figured if the angles get weird in the "center" position, I might be able to use that "corner" one.

I have two mounting points - They're both "center." One is centered on the horizontal axis, one is centered on the vertical axis, neither is centered on both.

 

[denverpilot]

I got some photos with the iPhone in the pitch black hangar tonight, but they're not the best. I'll post them here in a bit. Maybe take some better ones in daylight...

 

[denverpilot]

Okay, here ya go.

http://gallery.me.com/denverpilot#100023

Easier to post there than upload them all here.

The first shot is "worst case" scenario, yoke full forward, iPad mounted a bit too high.

Second shot without the flash is with the master and panel/post lights on, showing that the iPad can be VERY bright and you do need to download the latest version for the dimming feature.

Third shot is still "worst case" with the yoke full-forward and the camera held at my 5' 11" eyeball level and the seat is not where I'd normally have it for flying either. A notch or two back. What's hard to see here is the huge gap of space between me and the iPad at this point.

Fourth photo is with the yoke held approximately where it normally sits in level flight. The vaccum gauge is peeking out now, and if the ADF were still installed it'd be tricky to see, but none of the traditional "six-pack" is blocked.

5th shot is similar, just tried to angle the phone camera a little lower.

6th shot is showing the large amount of space between my legs and the yoke. The seat was cranked most of the way down, and I usually like to crank it up a little higher in the 182, but no interference at all between the iPad bottom, yoke, and my legs. And I have thunder thighs. Trust me. LOL! And I'll throw the "Is that a flashlight in your lap, or are you just happy to see me?" joke out there just to steal someone's thunder.

7th photo is yoke midway on pitch or so, and full left aileron.

8th photo sucks, but it's full right aileron. Blurry and my hand caught most of the flash.

9th photo, yoke full aft. The iPad just barely touches my belly. If i continue to lose weight, if the "spare tire" comes off, that wouldn't even be true. (Keep dreamin'!)

10th photo is showing the RAM "clamp" mechanism in case someone doesn't quite "get" how it goes on to the yoke.

11th photo is taken by me leaning over to the pax seat and shooting from the side. My left leg (for those looking at clearances) is lifted off the pilot's seat a bit by the "list to starboard" that I have to take this shot, so ignore the leg clearance a bit in this shot. The shot is to show you the entire clamp/arm/plate/iPad holder RAM system from the side. As you can see, the arm is too long, which I suspected might be the case with the angle plate, and I can easily order the "short" arm to move the iPad in even tighter to the yoke. This was my intention as I wanted to put the mount over the top of the yoke instead of under, which is usually how it's depicted, and make it as much a mechanical "part" of the yoke as possible to alleviate pressure on the clamping mechanism and use gravity to my advantage instead of disadvantage. After having tightened up the clamp and the ball with the adjustment, though... it's not going anywhere. It's solid.

12th photo is me with even more of a starboard list... I'm starting to sink like the Titanic here... but further away from the mount so you can see the big picture. Again, the arm (to me) is too long, and I'll be ordering the shorty from GPSCity.

The alternative mounting shown in many photos and typically the one seen in marketing photos for the RAM system is to run the clamp, arm(s) and what-not underneath the yoke. My problem with that is, I like to crank the seat up, and I often sit high enough to have the kneeboard get in the way of full yoke deflection from full left aileron to full right aileron, and have to crank down or remove the kneeboard and put it on my left leg, or stuff it between my left leg and the door when not in use. So I wanted this setup to go over the top of the yoke. Technically there's also a chart light on the bottom of the C-182 yoke that would possibly be blocked by the underneath-the-yoke mounting method.

Hope that helps, sorry they're crappy photos... I'll get more and better ones and maybe some in-flight video sometime down the road when the aircraft's left bladder has been replaced and we're airworthy in a couple of weeks (crosssing fingers, knocking on wood, etc.).

 

[midlifeflyer]

So, the 496 is above the glareshield then? Or am I visualizing it wrong?

You're visualizing it right. That amount of real estate doesn't really restrict my outside view that much. From the G-Force website:

No doubt that the combo you have is the best way to go right now, IMHO - Well, it would be if you had XM weather. That gives you the best of both worlds, plus a fair amount of redundancy.

The only reason that I don't have XM is, living in Colorado, flyable clouds are rare. There have been a few times it would have been nice to have but I couldn't see spending the extra bucks even for the capability.

You never know... the main reasons I upgraded from the 296 to the 495 were the AOPA data and SafeTaxi diagrams, both of which are effectively handled by ForeFlight. So a trade for a used 396 might not be out of the question at this point.

 

[midlifeflyer]

btw, the new ForeFlight ability to dim below the iPad own dimming works great. My friend and I did some practice approaches last night and there was a significant difference (he hadn't upgraded to 3.9 yet), even though I didn't use the dimmest setting.

The accuracy of the little airport on the airport diagram and the approach plates (GNS 5780) was suprisingly good. Right there on the approach with the dual 530s in the airplane we flew.