foreclosure, will you come?

I should say I also made a point to buy within my means, which many people did not (knowingly or not, there's a whole argument there). I did so with the full expectation that if something did happen to my family income I would be able to continuing paying my mortgage. I didn't do that with a contingency that I could renegotiate a new lower rate down the road by refi-ing.

While that's a smart move, and everyone on this site is well off (we do fly planes after all), there are a lot of people who did the same thing, however it didn't work out so well.

If you make 30,000 a year, and bought a house in 2007 that was within your means, but right on the edge, you might be in serious trouble.

You probably are making about the same today, but your food cost more, your gas cost more, your medical insurance cost more, and just about everything else cost more.

This inflation could move the house to the point where it no longer is affordable. The responsable thing to do is sell it, and buy a smaller house. The problem is you can't sell it because you owe more on it then it's worth, so you go under.

Thousands of people who are in this mess are honest responsible people who just thought they were living the dream of home ownership. They are not all people with ARM's looking to take every bit of equity they could out of there home so they could buy jet ski's.
 
No, I didn't get rich. I stay out of highly speculative and volatile markets, and it should have been perfectly obvious to even a casual observer that that's what the home mortgage market was. So no, I did not get rich... but neither did I invest heavily, in either mortgage-backed securities, mortgage lenders over-valued property, and lose my ass.

I have no formal financial training. I don't hold an econ degree. I have worked for financial services companies for years, but only on the IT side of the house. Even I could see it was a huge disaster in the making. We'd seen it so many times in the past. Tech stocks in the late 90s, then biotech, then housing... the signs were very clear. In each case the supposed "pros" got sucked in by their own greed and so did a lot of individual investors.

There were guys who really did see this coming. Maybe they were really smart, maybe they weren't. Some of them bet on it in fact, and now they're all billionaires.

Yeah, we all knew the bubble wan't sustainable, but no one would have said, "oh, it's going to crash tomorrow". That's utterly disingenuous. I can't imagine telling a newlywed not to buy property because the value was going to crash to half it's former value. That's nearly unprecedented here in the US, and went contrary to nearly all the established wisdom of the day.

Call us old and wiser, and perhaps this sort of thing won't happen again, at least not with the real estate market. Yes, there were folks playing the markets acting on greed. But I'll bet there were plenty more who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
In your case, you're kind of screwed. You do need to sell the house you paid way too much for. I feel for you, I really do. How you handle it is up to you. Keep paying the mortgage as you agreed to do, and wait it out... try and find a renter while the market value and your remaining balance slowly converge... sell it at a big loss... default on the loan and get the house foreclosed. Three bad choices and one that may or may not work. There's only one of them that I wouldn't consider.

Sorry I snapped at you. It's a trying time.

I also thought I would never consider it, and my posts would probably be along the same lines as yours if I didn't live through it.

The thing that made me make the choice, was it was the only way to get someone in the house. I love that house, and put hours of work into it. I didn't want it to rot away. Knowing that in the end sacrificing my credit meant someone could enjoy the home, made me do it.

The only down side to my choice, is what it does to me. The bank will get paid. So I don't take any moral issue in the path I chose.
 
There were guys who really did see this coming. Maybe they were really smart, maybe they weren't. Some of them bet on it in fact, and now they're all billionaires.

Yeah, we all knew the bubble wan't sustainable, but no one would have said, "oh, it's going to crash tomorrow". That's utterly disingenuous. I can't imagine telling a newlywed not to buy property because the value was going to crash to half it's former value. That's nearly unprecedented here in the US, and went contrary to nearly all the established wisdom of the day.

Call us old and wiser, and perhaps this sort of thing won't happen again, at least not with the real estate market. Yes, there were folks playing the markets acting on greed. But I'll bet there were plenty more who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Part of the problem is that housing prices have not yet fallen back to the level that they would have been if historic average costs increases had taken place. Houses are still over inflated and it will continue to be a problem until that prices come back further to what the historical average of a couple percent over inflation.
 
Yeah, we all knew the bubble wan't sustainable, but no one would have said, "oh, it's going to crash tomorrow". That's utterly disingenuous. I can't imagine telling a newlywed not to buy property because the value was going to crash to half it's former value. That's nearly unprecedented here in the US, and went contrary to nearly all the established wisdom of the day.
Actually... I did in fact tell some newlyweds that buying a house then would be a really bad idea. It was obvious that the house that was values at $80K last year, and $180K this year, was not worth anywhere near $180K. It's like those ridiculous prices in CA -- $2MM for a 1200 square foot house? Get serious.

Maybe I saw it more clearly because I went to work for an on line brokerage in 1999. We watched in awe as companies worth millions sold for billions, and stock worth pennies went for insane amounts. My only real mistake there was not staying in long enough. When my tiny little investment had nearly tripled, I figured the ride couldn't possibly last and took my $2K or so and ran like the dickens. Had I hung in there I could have tripled it again. On the other hand, a guy I worked with had company stock worth about $8MM. I asked him why he still came to work every day; he said he was waiting until it hit $10MM. He's still working full time today; I suspect he got out with a couple hundred grand.

Watching th housing market was like deja vu.
 
There were guys who really did see this coming. Maybe they were really smart, maybe they weren't. Some of them bet on it in fact, and now they're all billionaires.

And these people are also NOT the ones dealing with the public and telling them how great it was and come on in, we've got a deal for you. The folks that are smart enough to see it coming and get out of the way are not going to say anything to anybody - because they have already set themselves up to take maximum tactical advantage of the current market direction and there is zero incentive to change it. They will stand on the sidelines, watch the train wreck unfold and take the profit.

It's finance - there are no ethics here. Some of us are wolves and some of us are slow straggling sheep. It's the nature of the business.
 
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No, I didn't get rich. I stay out of highly speculative and volatile markets, and it should have been perfectly obvious to even a casual observer that that's what the home mortgage market was. So no, I did not get rich... but neither did I invest heavily, in either mortgage-backed securities, mortgage lenders over-valued property, and lose my ass.

I should say I also made a point to buy within my means, which many people did not (knowingly or not, there's a whole argument there). I did so with the full expectation that if something did happen to my family income I would be able to continuing paying my mortgage. I didn't do that with a contingency that I could renegotiate a new lower rate down the road by refi-ing.

IMO, you guys are in good shape. Buying based on your own situation, and not based on what the lemmings were doing. :thumbsup:
 
but if they're not trying to sell it right now it doesn't matter.

Please consider the difference in the networth of two families buying identical homes in the same neighborhood a few years apart. The first paid 400K and financed at 5.5%. The second 250K at 4.25%. These are both very nice low rates.

The first will pay 2271 for 30 * 12 months. The second 1229 for 30 * 12 the months. The homes will be of equal value at the end since they are identical.

So, the post bust buyer has a 375K greater networth at retirement assuming they do nothing with their savings. If they invest the 1000 difference each month and get 5% they'll be 866K richer. Even if you remove the interest rate differential the ability to invest the difference makes the second buying 600K richer.

My point is simply that is does matter. The impact of significantly overpaying for a highly leveraged asset is huge to most households.
 
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My only real mistake there was not staying in long enough. When my tiny little investment had nearly tripled, I figured the ride couldn't possibly last and took my $2K or so and ran like the dickens.

Someone before right before you, did the same thing. Tripled there money, and got out, only to see you do it. You watched someone else do it. They watched someone else do it.

You even state here you had no clue when it was going to happen (because you wish you had kept it in longer), you just knew it was going to happen.

Someone did the exact same thing you did, however between the time it doubled and tippled, everything came crashing down.

you just got lucky.

Here is why no one saw when it was coming....

The historical percentage of people who could buy a house, was around 60%. In the 90's, Bill Clinton thought it was worth investing in the 1 or 2 % right on that cusp, because he felt the way to grow wealth, was home ownership. So he enacted the Community Investment Act. Before that, if you went to a bank and was in the bottom 40%, and wanted a loan, the bank said "your a bad risk, so no thanks". With the new law, it incentivized banks to give loans, by giving the banks a break on the cost of all there other loans. In doing so, it made the cost/benefit of these 1 or 2 % a net positive.

So because of that, 62% of the population can buy a home, but the market was only making enough for 60%. So they started building more. This stimulated the economy. It also raised the price of homes, because we had a shortage. Congress thought this was cool, so they incentives a little more, and the number of people who can own a home went up, and so did the prices because there was a shortage.

The problem is this is unsustainable, because the only way it works, is if you keep giving homes to people who are a bad risk.

It turns out, we now know the number where you can't possibly expect someone to pay, is 75% (that's where we were when it crashed). However there is no way to guess that number. We know it, because we tried and failed.

If that numer was 68%, you would have lost your investment. If that number was 78%, I would have sold my house for a profit and would be condemning the idoits who bought a home in 2011.

The worst part, is that number is now back to the 60% it should have been all along, but we have enough homes for far more owners. Supply far outweighs demand, and it will be a very long time to until we climb out of it.
 
Please consider the difference in the networth of two families buying identical homes in the same neighborhood a few years apart. The first paid 400K and financed at 5.5%. The second 250K at 4.25%. These are both very nice low rates.

The first will pay 2271 for 30 * 12 months. The second 1229 for 30 * 12 the months. The homes will be of equal value at the end since they are identical.

So, the post bust buyer has a 375K greater networth at retirement assuming they do nothing with their savings. If they invest the 1300 difference each month and get 5% they'll be 866K richer. Even if you remove the interest rate differential the ability to invest the difference makes the second buying 600K richer.

My point is simply that is does matter. The impact of significantly overpaying for a highly leveraged asset is huge to most households.
I stand corrected, it does make a financial difference in the long run. I suppose the decision as to whether it matters enough to toss a contract you signed out the window and let the bank take your house is one every individual has to make.

One school of thought is that unsuspecting buyers got duped into bad investments, and they are justified in doing whatever they see fit to get out of it. Another says that the buyer made an informed decision -- or even an uninformed decision -- but one they are obligated to live with. The fact that things didn't work out the way you hoped doesn't always get you out of your obligations. I know that seems stodgy and old fashioned to some people.

I didn't buy any Berkshire Hathaway stock when it was $1500 a share, and I passed on Ford at $2. I now regret those decision. Who do I talk to about getting that stock, priced retroactively? Nobody. I made a choice, I have to live with it -- even if it has cost me millions in lost theoretical profit. The flip side was when I could very easily have declared bankruptcy and wiped out all of my debt. We certainly could have, and the damage to our credit would have been largely forgotten by now. And yet... every penny we owed, even on really bad deals, got paid.
 
While that's a smart move, and everyone on this site is well off (we do fly planes after all), there are a lot of people who did the same thing, however it didn't work out so well.

If you make 30,000 a year, and bought a house in 2007 that was within your means, but right on the edge, you might be in serious trouble.

You probably are making about the same today, but your food cost more, your gas cost more, your medical insurance cost more, and just about everything else cost more.

This inflation could move the house to the point where it no longer is affordable. The responsable thing to do is sell it, and buy a smaller house. The problem is you can't sell it because you owe more on it then it's worth, so you go under.

Thousands of people who are in this mess are honest responsible people who just thought they were living the dream of home ownership. They are not all people with ARM's looking to take every bit of equity they could out of there home so they could buy jet ski's.

I can't say that you're wrong, but I can say I respectfully disagree. If someone in '07 making $30k a year bought a house that they cannot afford today accounting the only change in their situation as inflation and cost increase on the items you mentioned, I say they bought too much house. I think the rule of thumb (and the one I used) was don't take on a mortgage payment more than about 25-30% of your net monthly income.

Someone making 30k would have a net take home of about $2,000 after health care, etc meaning they shouldn't have taken on more than about $500-600 a month in a mortgage payment. Given the rate of inflation between 2007-2012 that would mean they effectively lost about $3000 per year, or about $200/mo (after taxes). Their new 25-30% range would be $450-540. They'd only be in trouble if they chose to buy at the very top of their affordable range.

It's an enticing thing to go out and try to get the biggest and best house you can "afford", but the truth is that's not always best. I am absolutely certain there are tons of people out there that would have never seen this coming and got themselves into hot water on pure accident, that were not malicious or attempting to work the system. But if a person stuck to the conservative and long standing standard of income vs. expenses, they probably are fine. Ideal, no, but can afford the mortgage, probably so. If they didn't, for whatever reason, whoever's fault you want to call it, they are probably in a mess.

The American dream of owning a home is an idealogy. What no one talks about is what was behind that dream and it was generally some financial stability prior to owning a home. My parents, grandparents and so on didn't go buy a house at the first sign of income, they did it when they saved a down payment and had the means to support it. Granted, banks/government at that era weren't as willing to lay out big money on little credentials.
 
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It's an enticing thing to go out and try to get the biggest and best house you can "afford", but the truth is that's not always best. I am absolutely certain there are tons of people out there that would have never seen this coming and got themselves into hot water on pure accident, that were not malicious or attempting to work the system. But if a person stuck to the conservative and long standing standard of income vs. expenses, they probably are fine. Ideal, no, but can afford the mortgage, probably so. If they didn't, for whatever reason, whoever's fault you want to call it, they are probably in a mess.
Well said.

When we were looking for our current house, we figured out what we could reasonably afford. We knew that above $X, we'd be on thin ice - and above $Y, we'd be unable to pay the monthly mortgage. The bank, however, was perfectly willing to pre-qualify us for about 1.5 x $Y. When we got that letter my wife and I looked at each other in disbelief. There was no way in hell we could afford that much house. I thought at the time that it was a good thing we'd figured out our budget ahead of time instead of letting the bank take a guess. I think a lot of people took the bank's "This is the most we would lend you even on a good day" for "this is what we can afford".
 
And yet... every penny we owed, even on really bad deals, got paid.

That would have been true regardless. I just want to make the distinction that in your case, you were the one who paid it.

The purpose of an interest rate, is to cover the risk. If you seem like a high risk, everyone like you pays a higher interest rate to cover that risk.

So the bank makes a guess on how trustworthy you are, and makes you pay the difference. If in the end you paid off your debt, you paid three things:

The principle you borrowed.
The profit the bank made.
The amount needed to cover everyone like you who didn't pay.

The only time the bank loses money when you don't pay, is when they guessed wrong on the risk of the group they put you in.

I think there is something within you, me, and should be within every man, to pay there debts. I mean it's the right thing to do. You said you would do something, so you should do it. However it should be understood that the bank is not losing when you don't (unless there analysts suck, or we have a market crash).
 
I didn't buy any Berkshire Hathaway stock when it was $1500 a share, and I passed on Ford at $2. I now regret those decision. Who do I talk to about getting that stock, priced retroactively? Nobody. I made a choice, I have to live with it -- even if it has cost me millions in lost theoretical profit. The flip side was when I could very easily have declared bankruptcy and wiped out all of my debt. We certainly could have, and the damage to our credit would have been largely forgotten by now. And yet... every penny we owed, even on really bad deals, got paid.

I have found that it is more difficult to pick the next superstar than it is to pick the next implosion. When my wife told me that she was tired of me going on about how the housing market is in a bubble, I realized I should put some money where my mouth was. So I shorted some stock in Pulte Homes. That worked out pretty well. More recently, I bought some put options on Groupon in January. That worked out pretty well, too. All you really need to do is pay attention to what everyone is getting excited about and do the opposite. Right now, I'm hoping for one of this big fall corrections to get into some dividend paying stocks (Disclaimer: I do this with what I consider "gambling money". I don't consider this a true investment strategy).
 
I stand corrected, it does make a financial difference in the long run. I suppose the decision as to whether it matters enough to toss a contract you signed out the window and let the bank take your house is one every individual has to make.

One school of thought is that unsuspecting buyers got duped into bad investments, and they are justified in doing whatever they see fit to get out of it. Another says that the buyer made an informed decision -- or even an uninformed decision -- but one they are obligated to live with. The fact that things didn't work out the way you hoped doesn't always get you out of your obligations. I know that seems stodgy and old fashioned to some people.

I didn't buy any Berkshire Hathaway stock when it was $1500 a share, and I passed on Ford at $2. I now regret those decision. Who do I talk to about getting that stock, priced retroactively? Nobody. I made a choice, I have to live with it -- even if it has cost me millions in lost theoretical profit. The flip side was when I could very easily have declared bankruptcy and wiped out all of my debt. We certainly could have, and the damage to our credit would have been largely forgotten by now. And yet... every penny we owed, even on really bad deals, got paid.

You don't seem stodgy - I commend (and mirror) your fiscal responsibility.

The point I'm trying to make is that housing shouldn't be a highly speculative and volatile market. It became one due to a set of unprecedented circumstances resulting in some being hurt much more than others.

Participation in the housing market is compulsory and rentals are not always an equal substitute (think seeking school district stability or just providing kids with the experience of growing up in the same house).

So, I don't encourage anyone to walk away - however, I find a narrative entirely informed by 'they signed a contract and knew what they were getting into' meaningfully incomplete.

Sadly the impact to household wealth will be generational for many.
 
I'll keep paying till I get there, trying to tack on extra when I can.

Just a side-note.

It's not wise to "tack on extra" in an upside-down position.

Hold the cash, you can always "tack on extra" if life forces your hand and makes you move later.

Pay yourself first, as the old adage goes.

But do *hold* it, don't spend it... That's a different ball of wax.
 
Just a side-note.

It's not wise to "tack on extra" in an upside-down position.

Hold the cash, you can always "tack on extra" if life forces your hand and makes you move later.

Pay yourself first, as the old adage goes.

But do *hold* it, don't spend it... That's a different ball of wax.

Not to dive off subject but I've already got a pretty stringent savings plan. I'm wise in my young years and decided I better do the most I could with a relatively high income at my age. Any extra that goes to mortgage is well after my savings has been funded. My long term plan is to get the mortgage gone in 15, not 30. I won't do it at the expense of not having a fall back fund though.
 
If you made a seemingly legitimate investment only to learn you were the last investor in a Ponzi scheme would you keep paying earlier investors after it became clear no one new was joining the scheme?

Put differently, since about 1993 households supplemented income with debt leading to the a wealth illusion in the US. The wealth illusion being the perception that household income was growing much faster than it really was due to increases in credit and mortgage debt. This false wealth fueled consumption and made the overall economy look stronger than reality.

One effect of this was the appreciation of housing prices. Many who bought housing near market peaks in 2007 - 2008 were unwittingly buying into the top of a debt fueled national Ponzi scheme about to go bust. Those last purchasers were disproportionately left holding the bag while earlier home buyers either maintained profits or were left comparatively unscathed.

This consumer debt event was not a normal market pricing phenomenon, nor was it part of a normal debt cycle. Instead it was driven by a confluence of events including lax central banking policies, misguided government policies, and inappropriate financial incentives for debt originators. The result was a credit fueled prosperity cycle that was sure to end poorly. Towards the end the key players became mortgage originators, MBS resellers, and MBS purchasers whose inability to properly access the risk and misaligned financial incentives produces heaps of bad debt while driving housing prices to their final highs.

So, we collectively experienced an undeserved period of prosperity that retrospectively was certain to end poorly. At the time this was not well understood (or at least acknowledged) by the most sophisticated agents (central banks, mortgage banks, etc.) - and certainly not by the average home buyer. However, one aspect of this bubble was certain - whoever entered last would be hurt the most.

Let me state - I'm highly sympathetic to the personal responsibility argument. That said, I believe there is more complexity to this situation - namely that there is some truth to the reasoning that peak price home buyers were defrauded by a systematic failure not of their making yet are expected to disproportionately experience the pain.

An obvious criticism would be they knew they were purchasing a risk asset. Yes, they did - however no reasonable estimate of risk available in 2007 would have suggested 50% declines were possible nor did the so called sophisticated market participants properly price this risk. Indeed, few saw this coming until late in the 9th inning.

I must say, this reads like the Bill of Goods sold to the Citizenry to bail out this mess.

There were plenty of people who DID accurately assess the entire risk who were ignored by the greedy who had the reigns.

There's been documented evidence of various whistleblowers who were ignored at banks who were allowed to fail and those still in operation. People in those organizations willfully ignored those warnings.

Why? No consequences. They're not personally bankrupt for their bad calls today, they're not in jail, and government recapitalized their businesses at a loss to the entire Citizenry. They're still driving Bentleys.

Even Joe on the Street was "sophisticated" enough to know his house shouldn't have been worth double what he paid for it, but kept his yap shut because he was itching for a jackpot. Complicit in the scheme.

This whole thing has always been about the lack of repercussions from Day 1. Once the government backed the loans, it was Game On.

Just one example... This guy made over $100M a year, and his settlement for his wrongdoing was just over $60M.

http://m.aol.com/dailyfinance/defau...rtgage-meltdown-deal-crisis/&icid=dsk_df_news

Wonder if he's "sipping bad Scotch on his dirty linenoleum floor" as Cramer likes to joke on his money show. Kinda doubting it. You're all paying for his indiscretion and lack of morals. How about the Board of Directors members that hired him and oversaw his actions? Any of them not working in finance anymore? Ha. Right.

Those whining that the rich make too much, ought to be more concerned about HOW they made it, than worried about the amount or the "gap". If this guy skates, they all do.

An example of public opinion manipulation for money...

I can make a pretty good case for Warren Buffett pushing buttons in the American psyche causing him to be the Grandfather of the Tea Party, too... if you think about it.

What better way to ensure you'll remain a multi-billionaire than to be one and go on TV saying you think all the rich people should pay more in taxes?

Brilliant chess move, really. Drive Tea Party madness, topple the House by over 60 members to the supposedly fiscally conservative side and block such legislation that would tax you to death, by just making up a nice little story about your secretary. Wasn't easy either, he had to travel to go on every financial/business show in the country. Willful decision.

The shows, of course, want you on the show because they're in awe of your business prowess. Not even realizing they just got used. Probably haven't thought about it yet to this day.

Guaranteed win at arms length. The guy is amazing. (Note how he quieted down after the Congressional elections?)

And that story wasn't meant to be political, more than it was to point out that the ruthless money managers will manage with every tool in their quiver.

*Including manipulation of public opinion.*

Which is what I believe your assertions that "the sophisticated couldn't even figure it out", stem from. Manipulation.

It's a lie. They knew exactly what they were doing. And still do. And they will beat you with their lawyers and bought and paid for politicians. Every time. Until you start throwing them in jail.
 
Just one example... This guy made over $100M a year, and his settlement for his wrongdoing was just over $60M.

I hate to be the one to say they credited him $20MM towards that penalty under another settlement. I think after it was all said and done he ended up paying less than half of the original penalty.
 
I didn't buy any Berkshire Hathaway stock when it was $1500 a share, and I passed on Ford at $2. I now regret those decision. Who do I talk to about getting that stock, priced retroactively? Nobody. I made a choice, I have to live with it -- even if it has cost me millions in lost theoretical profit. The flip side was when I could very easily have declared bankruptcy and wiped out all of my debt. We certainly could have, and the damage to our credit would have been largely forgotten by now. And yet... every penny we owed, even on really bad deals, got paid.

Well, let's relate your theoretical stock purchases to something more akin to the condo owner. You could have bought AIG in 1990, and sold in 2001 at huge profit. A lot of people did that, and they booked those profits personally(or collectively as a bundled investment). Then, AIG went in the tank, and rather than ride out the bad times, they whined to the feds and got a big fat check of MY TAX MONEY. They didn't think it was 'right' that they should have to suffer the loss of all the beautiful profit. They thought that the taxpayers should suffer that loss after everyone got rich in the 90s.

So, the home buyer in this case bought in at the top(the AIG stock buyer bought in at the top of it's price). They both suffered huge losses. Once gets a federal check, the other gets told by the high-minded to 'suck it up, pay your note, take your loss like a man you POS'.

Did the suits at AIG know they were in for a 600% loss in 2007? Did we know the housing market would crash? The 'reasonable man' position is that no, we could not predict it.

See anything wrong with the two situations?
 
I hate to be the one to say they credited him $20MM towards that penalty under another settlement. I think after it was all said and done he ended up paying less than half of the original penalty.

Heh. Yeah. I didn't go past the initial case since most people don't even pay that much attention.

The bumper sticker, "Haters gonna hate" applies. "Robbers gonna rob."
 
Well, let's relate your theoretical stock purchases to something more akin to the condo owner. You could have bought AIG in 1990, and sold in 2001 at huge profit. A lot of people did that, and they booked those profits personally(or collectively as a bundled investment). Then, AIG went in the tank, and rather than ride out the bad times, they whined to the feds and got a big fat check of MY TAX MONEY. They didn't think it was 'right' that they should have to suffer the loss of all the beautiful profit. They thought that the taxpayers should suffer that loss after everyone got rich in the 90s.

So, the home buyer in this case bought in at the top(the AIG stock buyer bought in at the top of it's price). They both suffered huge losses. Once gets a federal check, the other gets told by the high-minded to 'suck it up, pay your note, take your loss like a man you POS'.

Did the suits at AIG know they were in for a 600% loss in 2007? Did we know the housing market would crash? The 'reasonable man' position is that no, we could not predict it.

See anything wrong with the two situations?
So you're saying that, because someone else got away with doing something unethical, we should all now accept that as the norm?

Or is it just that we should all be equally protected from bad decisions? (I agree with that position, actually -- just that the "equal protection" should be zero, in these cases.)

I keep seeing and hearing people say there was no way to predict the crash of the housing market. That's a position with which I simply cannot agree. Any reasonable person should have known that the housing market was wildly inflated and that there would be a substantial and painful adjustment... a crash. You don't need to know when. Knowing or even suspecting that it will means that your investment is speculative, and you have to assume a level of risk. I would not support anyone who loses their ass on a speculative investment getting bailed out. It's the risk you take.
 
Did the suits at AIG know they were in for a 600% loss in 2007? Did we know the housing market would crash? The 'reasonable man' position is that no, we could not predict it.

Can't say for sure, but a friend who worked at Lehman (in IT) said it was obvious for years.

He stacked hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of storage servers and SAN gear near the dumpsters on his last week. No one even wiped them. Any evidence on them is in a landfill somewhere.

He knew it couldn't last. No one "reasonable" did either. IT folks especially are attuned to the BS, we all "enjoyed" the late 90s bubble, same root cause (free money), same result.

AIG wrote the policies and audited these places. They should be gone. Utterly gone.

Putting the consequences of their risks on the backs of the taxpayers was dead wrong. Treasury finally got below 50% ownership of their Stock last week.
 
So you're saying that, because someone else got away with doing something unethical, we should all now accept that as the norm?

Or is it just that we should all be equally protected from bad decisions? (I agree with that position, actually -- just that the "equal protection" should be zero, in these cases.)

I keep seeing and hearing people say there was no way to predict the crash of the housing market. That's a position with which I simply cannot agree. Any reasonable person should have known that the housing market was wildly inflated and that there would be a substantial and painful adjustment... a crash. You don't need to know when. Knowing or even suspecting that it will means that your investment is speculative, and you have to assume a level of risk. I would not support anyone who loses their ass on a speculative investment getting bailed out. It's the risk you take.

I can tell you without doubt, that the US economy will fail. Will it happen in 3 years, or 100, I can't say, but anyone who thinks it's not going to happen is just ignoring all the signs. Should we all leave the US?

I am sure when it happens, many people years later will say they knew the day it would happen, and everyone else was just stupid.
 
Well, let's relate your theoretical stock purchases to something more akin to the condo owner. You could have bought AIG in 1990, and sold in 2001 at huge profit. A lot of people did that, and they booked those profits personally(or collectively as a bundled investment). Then, AIG went in the tank, and rather than ride out the bad times, they whined to the feds and got a big fat check of MY TAX MONEY. They didn't think it was 'right' that they should have to suffer the loss of all the beautiful profit. They thought that the taxpayers should suffer that loss after everyone got rich in the 90s.

So, the home buyer in this case bought in at the top(the AIG stock buyer bought in at the top of it's price). They both suffered huge losses. Once gets a federal check, the other gets told by the high-minded to 'suck it up, pay your note, take your loss like a man you POS'.

Did the suits at AIG know they were in for a 600% loss in 2007? Did we know the housing market would crash? The 'reasonable man' position is that no, we could not predict it.

See anything wrong with the two situations?

Not saying I disagree with your point but that analogy really doesn't work. You are comparing the action of a single stock holder to the action of an entire enterprise and that's just not how things happened. First, shareholders didn't go begging the hill for a bailout in masses. A set of executives did, they happened to be stockholders but that's purely coincidental (for these purposes)and saying stock holders asked for it isn't appropriate. AIG has tens of millions of stock holders, that's like saying one of the nails in the guy's roof asked for a bailout on his mortgage...

Second the government has made a hefty profit from those shares it purchased from AIG. I am not a proponent of bailing out enterprises. I'm even less of a big government, but I am actually happy to see they are pulling returns on their investments and didn't just give the money away in grants.

And lastly AIG was in a pickle based on the action of other co-mingling parties. They were the single largest holder of MBS insurance and were knee deep in the mortgage scandal with the banks and mortgage companies and the GOV'T (that's an important piece here). The government, which helped them get into that mess by creating a mad market for unreliable investments was about to see it's beauty collapse before it's very eyes...

If the guy goes belly up on his house it's a single instance. If AIG goes belly up, most first world markets would implode nearly immediately.

AIG is comparable all foreclosures combined, not just one. And each foreclosure is a shareholder in your scenario. At least that fits better.
 
As a longtime law enforcement officer, I am offended by the attitude of the police described in the original post. He signed a legally binding contract; he is obligated to fulfill his end of it. If he can't he needs to take the proper, lawful steps to get out of it. As officers, we do not have the option of picking and choosing which laws we obey. I do know the difference between civil and criminal law, but this goes to integrity. He could be subject to departmental discipline for doing that.

Amen

Absolutely right
 
Second the government has made a hefty profit from those shares it purchased from AIG.

Uncorrected for inflation.

Is AIG really worth more today than they were before the crash? Are they worth the difference in their stock price? What was their P/E ratio on the day they took the bailout vs. today?

Or is government just devaluing the dollar to make it look like business is doing well?

Just questions, I'm not saying one way or the other.

I am saying that the game is rigged when a government lends money and then claims it "made a profit".

And the standard question in the "follow the money" game... Who benefits if people think the government made money on AIG?

I haven't studied that one enough to have an opinion either way yet, but I don't fully believe the statement "the government made money from their investment in AIG" without seeing HOW they accomplished that particular feat.

AIG sold off a lot of stuff at pennies on the dollar too. Who benefitted, who lost?

Better dig a whole lot deeper than the veneer when one of the world's largest insurers is massively restructured. Something far more interesting is usually hiding in a few of the seemingly insignificant line-items in the tsunami of changes on the balance sheet.
 
Just a side-note.

It's not wise to "tack on extra" in an upside-down position.

Hold the cash, you can always "tack on extra" if life forces your hand and makes you move later.

Pay yourself first, as the old adage goes.

But do *hold* it, don't spend it... That's a different ball of wax.

On the surface the decision to pay down housing debt shouldn't be influenced by whether you have positive or negative equity unless you might want to default. Basically, its a capital allocation problem where you want to maximize your return. The question becomes your confidence that alternative investments will exceed the tax adjusted interest rate on your mortgage.

However, maintaining max negative equity is valuable if you are contemplating a default.

Assuming you don't plan to default having negative equity creates a number of problems that are not ideal - such as restricted refinancing options and complications in selling. These limitations can be addressed either by having sufficient liquid capital to eliminate the negative equity when you want to pursue a refinance or sale / or accelerating the principle repayment.

So, baring a desire to default it is a capital allocation problem uninfluenced by positive or negative equity. Regardless an owner should seek sufficient liquid capital to address the negative equity should the need arise to move or refinance.
 
It is some difficult times we live in.. BUT...

He put his signature on a mortgage and promised to pay it in good faith... Now he has cold feet and quits paying 10 months ago and continues to live in the property. To me that is FRAUD and as a LEO he is sworn to uphold the law... Apparently he is above the law. IMHO. YMMV.:mad:

I can't say I hate to disagree.

The legal mechanics of mortgage lending contraindicate this position. Vis:

When you borrow to purchase a home, you sign a promissory note. That document is your debt instrument and promise to repay. The lender secures this debt with a lien on your property, namely a Mortgage.

When you stop paying, you are (most likely) defaulting on your obligations under the note. That, in turn, gives the secured party the right to foreclose on the lien of the mortgage. But until that happens, no, until that is finalized, you the homeowner still own the property and are still obligated to support and maintain it.

There's a very good reason lenders sometimes take a long time to pursue debt collection and foreclosure: Because it's better to leave you in the home paying the utilities, keeping it up, and (as here) paying the condominium association assessments every month than it is for them to do so. Now, this doesn't work out the same way on every deal, but it's a practical decision for them to make on the whole.

Eventually they will file the foreclosure, and eventually they will complete that process and come into legal title on the property. But until that happens, whether you are paying debt that is secured by the property or not, the homeowner has the right to remain in the property. They even have the obligation to maintain the property under the terms of the FNMA form mortgage they signed to do so.

I've done lots of loan work, from both sides, and of all sizes. I've never learned how to get my opinion to be black and white on the subject, though I'm presented with the temptation on every file.

At the risk of inflaming the conversation, here's an interesting tidbit: Do you know how mortgage lenders are allowed to treat their losses (both foreclosure and short sale) on residential mortgage loans for federal tax purposes at the moment? I'll give you a hint: It includes the phrase "dollar for dollar"......
 
Second the government has made a hefty profit from those shares it purchased from AIG. I am not a proponent of bailing out enterprises. I'm even less of a big government, but I am actually happy to see they are pulling returns on their investments and didn't just give the money away in grants.

I am saying that the game is rigged when a government lends money and then claims it "made a profit".

And the standard question in the "follow the money" game... Who benefits if people think the government made money on AIG?

I haven't studied that one enough to have an opinion either way yet, but I don't fully believe the statement "the government made money from their investment in AIG" without seeing HOW they accomplished that particular feat.

You guys will enjoy these articles:

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/09/sorkins-aig-tale-debunked-by-sorkin/ (Barry Ritholtz)

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/09/andrew-ross-sorkins-bad-math-on-aig.html (Naked Capitalism)

http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/2587.html (Interfluidity)
 
J
If the market was booming, the bank would foreclose as soon as they legally could, sell the house for a profit and pocket the money.
No they do not. They recover the amount of the loan, the rest of the proceeds to to any junior liens and the residual to the original borrower.

You are totally confused as to what a mortgage is about.
 
No they do not. They recover the amount of the loan, the rest of the proceeds to to any junior liens and the residual to the original borrower.

You are totally confused as to what a mortgage is about.
Absolutely correct, but the "fees" charged for various costs associated with maintaining the property from foreclosure to sale also are charged against the proceeds. These sometimes seem excessive by multiples of what normal home owners expect. If the duration from foreclosure to sale is extensive these can become quite punishing.
 
Absolutely correct, but the "fees" charged for various costs associated with maintaining the property from foreclosure to sale also are charged against the proceeds. These sometimes seem excessive by multiples of what normal home owners expect. If the duration from foreclosure to sale is extensive these can become quite punishing.
Punishing? You think the lender is not uncergoing these costs? You think it costs nothing to collect and foreclose? This is over and above the fact that they are unable to pay those who invested in the lender.
 
I'm on the integrity side. He borrowed money, now he doesn't want what he spent the money on, so he is reneging on his word and his signature.

He is in a position to pay the money back, but he does not care about what he promised to do.

No matter how you slice the cake, he is now in the same league, and on par, with any low life he encounters. His word is worthless, his handshake is worthless, his signature is worthless.

He is a full blown low life. Your association with him can bring no good on your name.

-John
 
At the risk of inflaming the conversation, here's an interesting tidbit: Do you know how mortgage lenders are allowed to treat their losses (both foreclosure and short sale) on residential mortgage loans for federal tax purposes at the moment? I'll give you a hint: It includes the phrase "dollar for dollar"......

In other words, this dirtbag isn't stealing from the bank who he agreed to pay. He is stealing directly from the taxpayers. Even better.
 
In other words, this dirtbag isn't stealing from the bank who he agreed to pay. He is stealing directly from the taxpayers. Even better.

NO.

The government is stealing your money and giving it to the bank. There is a big difference.
 
So you're saying that, because someone else got away with doing something unethical, we should all now accept that as the norm?

Or is it just that we should all be equally protected from bad decisions? (I agree with that position, actually -- just that the "equal protection" should be zero, in these cases.)

I keep seeing and hearing people say there was no way to predict the crash of the housing market. That's a position with which I simply cannot agree. Any reasonable person should have known that the housing market was wildly inflated and that there would be a substantial and painful adjustment... a crash. You don't need to know when. Knowing or even suspecting that it will means that your investment is speculative, and you have to assume a level of risk. I would not support anyone who loses their ass on a speculative investment getting bailed out. It's the risk you take.

I"m saying what I'm saying, you don't need to restate and alter my position with your words. It is a race to the bottom with no one winning at this. Ultimately, it's the voters who decided to retain all those congressmen who endorsed the bailout after getting shafted so many times.

We harangue one guy for not paying his bills, but the people who voted the bailout mostly still have their job on capitol hill. We are responsible for that. I can't hold one person responsible for their debt when we don't hold anyone in executive power responsible for their debt. The shareholders and stockholders should have been fully wiped out from the AIG debacle. Clean slate, if that means an adjustment in the S&P, or Dow so be it. The long term effects of co-mingling treasury money and commercial money will be our downfall. For a teaser I give you - Solyndra.
 
Not saying I disagree with your point but that analogy really doesn't work. You are comparing the action of a single stock holder to the action of an entire enterprise and that's just not how things happened. First, shareholders didn't go begging the hill for a bailout in masses. A set of executives did, they happened to be stockholders but that's purely coincidental (for these purposes)and saying stock holders asked for it isn't appropriate. AIG has tens of millions of stock holders, that's like saying one of the nails in the guy's roof asked for a bailout on his mortgage...

Second the government has made a hefty profit from those shares it purchased from AIG. I am not a proponent of bailing out enterprises. I'm even less of a big government, but I am actually happy to see they are pulling returns on their investments and didn't just give the money away in grants.

And lastly AIG was in a pickle based on the action of other co-mingling parties. They were the single largest holder of MBS insurance and were knee deep in the mortgage scandal with the banks and mortgage companies and the GOV'T (that's an important piece here). The government, which helped them get into that mess by creating a mad market for unreliable investments was about to see it's beauty collapse before it's very eyes...

If the guy goes belly up on his house it's a single instance. If AIG goes belly up, most first world markets would implode nearly immediately.

AIG is comparable all foreclosures combined, not just one. And each foreclosure is a shareholder in your scenario. At least that fits better.

No, the feds didn't make a dime on AIG. All the smoke and mirrors in the world can't spin this to sound good. We are still in the hole several hundred billion for this and a few other bailouts. Stop reading white house press releases and follow the bond market and what the feds are doing. It might be a real eye-opener.

and this 'too big to fail' BS is all hogwash. Everyone at AIG from the CEO down to the janitor should have lost their job. Yes, That would have created a huge vacuum in neg securities and mortgage paper for a very short time. If I know one thing about the efficiency of a capital market, the sharks will pick the bones clean, and will get busy making new sharks to fill the void. There is no company on earth that is too big to fail. Yes - I agree it would have shaken the housing market that was right at the pinnacle. But my opinion is that it would have been a steeper crash, but a faster recovery(that shark metaphor again).

If you don't like the analogy, that's fine. I'm unhappy that this guy is not paying his mortgage. I'm 900 BILLION times more unhappy that the feds let all the CEO socialize their losses into the tax paying treasury.
 

Those are interesting. The two articles seem to differ on the amount of actual tax impact, or at least they seem to look at it differently. One says they could write off approx $26 billion in tax, and the other says revenue. I have to think the latter is correct, realistically writing off $26 billion in taxes seems a little absurd. AIG wasn't paying that much to begin with...so they aren't going to a zero ledger, are they? I know they get very close to $0 in income tax paid, but I can't see how they'd actually get a $25BB tax credit. That'd mean no taxes paid for years and years. I don't follow corporate tax payouts enough to recognize if that makes sense or not.
 
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