foreclosure, will you come?

To my way of thinking...

The "homeowner" doesn't own a condo. The bank owns a condo, and the bank holds almost all the equity in the condo.

So if the value of the condo goes down, the lender and the mortgagee should share the loss fairly; and the most convenient way I can think of to fairly divvy up that loss is along lines of equity ownership. So if the bank holds 90 percent of the equity, the bank should eat 90 percent of the loss in value.

As a disclaimer, I hate banks. I have been bank-free for years. If I were standing in line at a bank and someone came in and robbed it, I might just offer him a getaway ride. So my opinion may be a bit biased.

-Rich
 
So if the value of the condo goes down, the lender and the mortgagee should share the loss fairly; and the most convenient way I can think of to fairly divvy up that loss is along lines of equity ownership. So if the bank holds 90 percent of the equity, the bank should eat 90 percent of the loss in value.

Would you say this rule should also apply to cars, boats, airplanes, and any consumer goods purchased on credit?

The second I drive the brand new car off the lot, does my payment adjust for the instant depreciation of 20% of the vehicle's value?

New HDTV? Take it home, unwrap it, install it, turn in paperwork to lower my payments by 50%?
 
Would you say this rule should also apply to cars, boats, airplanes, and any consumer goods purchased on credit?

The second I drive the brand new car off the lot, does my payment adjust for the instant depreciation of 20% of the vehicle's value?

New HDTV? Take it home, unwrap it, install it, turn in paperwork to lower my payments by 50%?

No, because those items are expected to depreciate. That's part of the deal.

Houses, on the other hand, are expected to appreciate; and inasmuch as the bank actually was the entity that purchased the house, if it goes down in value, then the bank messed up as much as the debtor did. Arguably more so, in fact, because mortgage bankers are presumed to have at least a passing familiarity with real estate valuation and economic forces.

The purchaser, on the other hand, usually is not an expert in these areas. They rely on their brokers and agents, and to some extent, on the lender, to determine valuation. That's why banks insist on appraisals, surveys, title searches, structural inspections, termite inspections, and so forth. It's the bank that's purchasing the house. Once the deal is closed, they will list it as an asset on their balance sheets; and they retain an interest in it until the last payment is made.

But when for all their expertise, the bank still screws up the valuation, they want the purchaser to foot the bill. They want to take no risk at all.

What it comes down to is that bank made an investment, as did the purchaser. As with any investment, it was a gamble. So if that gamble goes south, why should the purchaser be the only one to eat the loss?

The bank and the purchaser shared in the gamble; likewise, they should share in the loss.

-Rich
 
No, because those items are expected to depreciate. That's part of the deal.

Houses, on the other hand, are expected to appreciate;

Expected, sure, eventually, maybe. But nobody guarantees that houses appreciate.
 
Expected, sure, eventually, maybe. But nobody guarantees that houses appreciate.

That's right. And neither does the debtor guarantee that he or she will pay the mortgage. The mortgage, by definition, is secured by the property itself -- whose value the bank deemed sufficient to secure the loan amount.

If the debtor decides to walk away, the bank forecloses. That's also spelled out in the contract. The bank can do that because they, not the mortgagee, own the house.

So again, why shouldn't the bank share in the loss if the bank screwed up on the valuation? The house, not the debtor's word, was the security.

-Rich
 
Houses, on the other hand, are expected to appreciate;

Oh I very much disagree with that.

The real-estate adage "location, location, location" has been around since long, long before the mortgage crisis.

Build quality and even taste also factor in.

Tons of factors in real-estate investment. Heck, get your city council to build a nice park nearby, it helps your value.

Lots of things can lower value. Including recessions. Even recessions caused by government meddling in mortgage guarantees and insurance.
 
That's right. And neither does the debtor guarantee that he or she will pay the mortgage.

huh? That's the contract. The borrower agrees to pay the mortage.



If the debtor decides to walk away, the bank forecloses. That's also spelled out in the contract. The bank can do that because they, not the mortgagee, own the house.

No, the banks doesn't own the house. The name on the deed is the borrower's name, not the bank's.


So again, why shouldn't the bank share in the loss if the bank screwed up on the valuation? The house, not the debtor's word, was the security.

-Rich


A property that had the value decrease does not necessarily mean that the bank screwed up on the valuation.
 
That's right. And neither does the debtor guarantee that he or she will pay the mortgage.
Incorrect. The mortgage note specifically states that the borrower promises to pay the amount borrowed, plus interest, at the rate and with the terms agreed upon.

Just flipping briefly through the paperwork from our latest refinance...

Section 1 of the promissory note, entitled "BORROWER'S PROMISE TO PAY". First sentence... "In return for a loan that I have received, I promise to pay U.S. $xx.xx (this amount is called "Principal"), plus interest, to the order of the Lender.

It goes on from there. Nowhere does it state that I am free to stop paying what I owe, if I decide it's not a good deal for me any more. It does say I can pay it off early and save on interest. It also says this: "If I do not pay the full amount of each monthly payment on the date it is due, I will be in default."

Later, in section 8, everyone signing the note agrees that they are individually and personally obligated to keep all of the promises made in the note.

So, yes, if you have a mortgage... you DID promise to pay, otherwise the lender would never have loaned you money. Would you loan money to someone without a promise that they would pay you back? I sure wouldn't.

People can dance around it all they want, but "walking away" from a mortgage is breaking a promise to pay. It's as simple as that. Maybe they have a choice, maybe they just have made a decision that there is a dollar value to their personal integrity.
 
So should the banks also get the lion's share of an increase in value when you sell? Seems only fair.
 
Bob, we're talking in different terms. You are correct in everything you say in legal terms, because banks have a lot more influence over legislation than ordinary folks -- until things come crashing down, of course, in which case demagoguery kicks in.

I'm talking in more practical terms. Regardless of who's name is on the deed, the bank continues to have an interest in the house that essentially consists of all of the benefits except being able to actually move in, but few of the risks and responsibilities.

The "owner" is responsible for paying the taxes, the insurance, the maintenance, the utilities, and the upkeep. Sometimes taxes may be rolled into the mortgage payment, but it's still the "owner" who is paying them. It's also the "owner" who will be sued if someone slips and falls; and it's the "owner" who will be ticketed if the grass is too high or there's an old Chevy parked on the lawn.

The bank, however, gets many of the benefits of ownership because of their collateral interest in the property. The bank gets to report the property as an asset, and more importantly, gets to borrow money against that asset and use it to make more money. If the value of the house appreciates, then its asset value to the bank also increases; so in effect, appreciation benefits both the "owner" and the bank.

If all goes well, after X number of years, the borrower really will become the owner, and the bank will have collected several hundred percent of what they loaned the borrower -- plus whatever they made by using the home's asset value as a basis for borrowing and lending more money over the years. So if the house appreciates, which historically has been the case most of the time, both the bank and the borrower benefit.

But when the house depreciates, what the banks want is that only the borrower will bear the burden; and the bank will still get to collect several hundred percent of what they loaned, and will still get to use the home's asset value to borrow more money. What the borrower will get is, well, screwed -- and royally, at that.

Legally, of course, the banks are entitled to make money even when their gambles fail, homes go underwater, and borrowers are financially ruined. And legally, of course, at one time in this country's history white men were allowed to own black men. In both cases, the operative force was who wrote the laws.

I believe that writing mortgages is a gamble; and those who gamble for a living have to be prepared to take losses. I think the banking laws in this country are a horror show -- especially considering that the banking industry bears a considerable amount of the blame for the financial mess we've been in for the past decade.

The good news, of course, is that banks are completely unnecessary (at least for consumers); and I've solved the banking crisis in my own life by completely removing myself from that corrupt system. I deal with credit unions exclusively and have for several years.

And you know what? I haven't missed the banks. Nope, not a bit. Anything any bank has ever done for me, my credit unions do better -- and cheaper.

My hope for the banking industry is that more people realize how unnecessary banks are, and that every last one of them goes out of business. As far as I'm concerned it is an industry worthy of its own circle in Hell, one that for the sake of greed and profit has ruined this nation's economy, put many small companies out of business, and destroyed the financial well-being of many millions of hard-working people.

I will celebrate the day when the last bank closes its doors, should I live to see it; and I work toward that day by promoting credit unions whenever I can.

So perhaps my comments are colored a bit by my opinion about banks in general, which is why I included my disclaimer. There's a distinct possibility that I'm a bit less than objective on this issue.

-Rich
 
I'm no fan of banks either, and a long term CU user.

But right now neither a bank nor a CU owns my mortgage debt. The Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) does, and they're not who I signed a contract with.

Did I have a choice as a consumer in this matter? Not that I know of.

The refi-mortgage was purchased through a broker for the best deal, they sold in 30 days to a bank (expected, in the contract), and the bank sold in 15 days to Fannie Mae. Incredibly fast. Pre-planned, I'd say.

I'm now paying money to a quasi-government entity more corrupt than the worst banks out there. And they're paying the bank to "service" the loan, presumably because they're so inept they can't even handle doing direct billing?

Apparently whatever they offer is good for business at the bank or the bank would simply hold the note. Must be a screaming deal.

Check out this lovely "company" I'm now doing business with...

From Wikipedia:

2011 SEC charges

In December, 2011, six Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives including Daniel Mudd were charged by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission with securities fraud. "The SEC alleges they 'knew and approved of' misleading statements claiming the companies had minimal exposure to subprime loans at the height of home mortgage bubble."[68] Former Freddie chief financial officer Anthony “Buddy” Piszel, who in February, 2011, was CFO of CoreLogic, "had received a notice from the SEC that the agency was considering taking action against him". He then resigned from CoreLogic. Piszel was not among the executives charged in December, 2011.[69] Piszel had been succeeded at Freddie by David Kellermann. Kellermann committed suicide during his tenure at Freddie.

A contemporaneous report on the SEC charges continued:

The SEC said Mudd’s misconduct included knowingly giving false testimony to Congress. Mudd said last week that the government approved Fannie Mae’s disclosures during his tenure. “Now it appears that the government has negotiated a deal to hold the government, and government-appointed executives who have signed the same disclosures since my departure, blameless — so that it can sue individuals it fired years ago,” he said in a statement last week.[69]
 
snip..
The second I drive the brand new car off the lot, does my payment adjust for the instant depreciation of 20% of the vehicle's value?

Why should it? A reasonable lender would not loan 100% on a vehicle. If the lender expects depreciation of 20% immediately, then they should loan no more than 80%. And, if so, then the payment is already adjusted for that instant depreciation.

Now, say 6 months later some bad news occurs on that particular model which lowers it value to 50%. Owner decides to quit paying. Lender may have the right to re-possess and maybe sue for the difference and borrower screws his credit history. Maybe not a wise choice for a borrower in this case.

On a mortgage, with underwaters so widespread, the lender may be trading no foreclosure for keeping someone in the home to take care of their asset. Lender knows that when the asset values increase due to inflation, they will get all the missed payments plus late fees, etc. later, or foreclose when the value rises sufficiently to recover. Who is going to win when hyperinflation kicks in and the property triples in dollar value? Not likely the defaulted borrower... But a responsible borrower at 3.5% who make their payments even while temporarily underwater will win when hyperinflation hits.

Banks may not necessarily like responsible borrowers.
 
......

If the debtor decides to walk away, the bank forecloses. That's also spelled out in the contract. The bank can do that because they, not the mortgagee, own the house.

So again, why shouldn't the bank share in the loss if the bank screwed up on the valuation? The house, not the debtor's word, was the security.

-Rich

You make some valid points... But.... The fact remains.. The police officer who signed a CONTRACT to pay the bank back is doing two things wrong..

1- He failed to uphold his end of the deal by refusing to pay the note off as agreed.

2- And ever more important... He did NOT walk away, he is living in the condo he doesn't pay for.. he is a squater. Plain and simple..:mad:

Cops are supposed to be held to a higher standard and this guy ain't helping their image at all.... If I am not wrong, you were in LE and now living off a LE pension, funded by taxpayers dollars. Do you think it would be fair to lump you and this guy together.:dunno::dunno:

Jus sayin...
 
You make some valid points... But.... The fact remains.. The police officer who signed a CONTRACT to pay the bank back is doing two things wrong..

1- He failed to uphold his end of the deal by refusing to pay the note off as agreed.

2- And ever more important... He did NOT walk away, he is living in the condo he doesn't pay for.. he is a squater. Plain and simple..:mad:

Cops are supposed to be held to a higher standard and this guy ain't helping their image at all.... If I am not wrong, you were in LE and now living off a LE pension, funded by taxpayers dollars. Do you think it would be fair to lump you and this guy together.:dunno::dunno:

Jus sayin...

He wanted to walk away, apparently; the bank just doesn't want to foreclose, probably for the reasons Nate suggested. They want someone to maintain their asset.

As for me, no, I was never in LE (unless you want to count my time in the Coast Guard many years ago; but I wasn't a career man, didn't retire, and don't receive a pension).

I live off the proceeds of the sale of my IT consulting business, some Web design / development work that I still do about half-time, some writing, and the occasional computer repair or consulting job for local businesses.

-Rich
 
Rich, the only thing that popped into my head about your "shared risk" theory is that mortgage lending rates are typically lower than other forms of consumer debt. That lower rate is a reflection of lower risk. If you want the bank to share in the risk, I would expect them to do so via a higher rate.

Also - you had me stumped for a while on the "no bank" thing. When you mentioned you were a CU member, that made sense; thanks for clarifying. It's less than simple to live a modern life outside the banking "system".
 
No hardship, just economic calculation (I thought it was clear from the story), he is not unique, many do exactly the same. His credit score will be messed up for a few years - again, part of this overall calculus.

He sounds like a real scumbag to me. He signs a contract with the bank, then backs out leaving them taking the loss. I'm sure it calculates for him, but not the type of person I'd ever want to do business with.
 
He sounds like a real scumbag to me. He signs a contract with the bank, then backs out leaving them taking the loss. I'm sure it calculates for him, but not the type of person I'd ever want to do business with.

He didn't back out of anything! The contract gave him LEGAL options. He exercises his LEGAL options. That's all.

The bank also has LEGAL options...to foreclose. They haven't done so yet. So he stays. So what? I'm sure the bank is happy that he's maintaining their asset for them. When the bank exercises their LEGAL option and forecloses then I'm sure he'll leave.

It is a simple business decision on both sides. Most corporations would do the same thing that he did and they'd be applauded for it; "savvy move on behalf of their stockholders" the analysts would claim.

Homeowners should NOT be expected to shoulder an undue percentage of the housing crisis burden. They didn't cause the problem, the banks did, and it's not the homeowner's responsibility to bail the banks out from the mess that they and the mortgage backed securities industry created.

NOTE: The above was typed by a homeowner whose home has lost 20% of its value since being purchased in 2008 and who is now attempting to refinance and take advantage of today's low rates. I'm not upside down since we paid 20% down but NO bank to date will refinance our home because we're at a 100% loan to value. There are supposed to be programs out here to help those like me who "want to do the honorable thing" and stay in their home and continue to pay for it. But, the banks...the same greedy bastards who created this mess...aren't budging. And this for someone who's credit rating is over 800 and income is typically well into the 6 figures. I really feel for the "Average Joe". In my case, I'll probably just dip into savings and pay it off and be done with it so I no longer have to deal with the greedy bastards but most folks don't have that option.

The bottom line: F*** the banks. We've already bailed them out once and they still remain the same as they were before so there's no reason that homeowners should feel obliged to bail them out for a second time.

EDIT: Rich says it far more eloquently below...nice post, Rich.
 
Last edited:
He sounds like a real scumbag to me. He signs a contract with the bank, then backs out leaving them taking the loss. I'm sure it calculates for him, but not the type of person I'd ever want to do business with.

Actually, I don't disagree -- not completely, anyway. I do think, however, that banks brought this sort of thing upon themselves by their own conduct.

Some years ago, before I sold my consulting business, I got three telltale envelopes from my bank in one week. I could tell from the envelopes that they were notices that my clients' checks had bounced. Getting three in one week, however, was unheard of. Furthermore, all three bad checks were from long-time clients who had become friends over the years, making the bounced checks all the more surprising.

All three clients were in seasonal businesses; all three had, for many years, tapped into their credit lines to carry them through the slow months; and all three had accounts with the same bank, which happens to be named after a continent that's mistakenly considered to be synonymous with one of the nations on that continent.

And that bank had executed "emergency" terminations all three of their credit lines -- without bothering to notify them until a month later. They were not behind in their payments, and certainly not in default. They merely used their credit lines, as they had for years and years prior. But the bank, nonetheless, no longer considered them credit-worthy, and so they canceled their lines. That was perfectly legal. It was in the contract.

Where was the bank's sense of responsibility, obligation to the spirit of its contract (credit lines, by their nature, tend to be used when cash flow is tight), and concern for the effects of their decision? They thought it quite acceptable to unilaterally terminate three of their customers' lines of credit despite the customers being in compliance with the terms, and to leave their customers (and me) on the hook.

It was all legal, after all, because of the fine print in the contract that said the bank could terminate the businesses' lines for any reason or no reason at all, at any time, based upon their evaluation of their customers' creditworthiness, economic conditions, the phases of the moon, or the meteorological conditions on Ganymede. It was all perfectly legal. The contract said so.

Neither did the bank shed any tears when one of the businesses -- a landscaper with about 25 employees during the season and five kids year-round -- was unable to purchase supplies nor hire back his men for the season, effectively putting him out of business and his family on the street. Nothing in the contract required that they give a rat's about things like that.

Nor did the bank care that I was left on the hook for thousands of dollars worth of equipment I'd sold to one of the clients, that the client paid for in good faith, using the credit line that had been terminated without his knowledge. That was my problem, not the bank's. It was all legal. The contract said so.

Neither did they care very much that had it not been for the inverse relation between my busy season and my clients', the checks I wrote to my own employees would have bounced; nor were they concerned in the least that the three bounced checks plus the penalties left my own account close to empty. That was not their concern. What they did was all legal. The contract said so.

Two of the clients were able to cover the checks from their own personal assets, and did so. The third -- the landscaper with five kids -- could not. He was about to lose his business, his house, and everything else he thought he owned, as were all of his employees. The bank didn't care. Those things were not their concern. What they did was all legal. The contract said so.

Help came from a source he hadn't known existed: One of his own wealthy customers put a good word in for him with a large, Long Island-based credit union, which assembled an emergecy ad hoc committee to review my client's situation. A day later, they granted my client a credit line with the proviso that he also accept free counseling from a member of that committee, who was a retired landscape business owner.

That was one of the reasons that I started looking at credit unions. I'd been vaguely aware that they existed, but I really hadn't known how completely different they were from banks. And over the next year or so, as more and more of my clients -- hard working, good, and decent men and women -- were effectively put out of business by the crisis created by the banking industry, I decided that I wanted nothing to do with it; and I swore off banks forever.

You can make an ethical argument that people should not walk away from their mortgage or other obligations, and I will agree with you. But at the same time, there's a limit to how much ethical consideration is due to an industry that relentlessly pursues its own interests, to the complete exclusion of any concern for the well-being of its customers, its nation, or for that matter the entire world economy.

As far as I'm concerned, GBW's biggest mistake while in office was bailing out the banking industry. I would have let the banks fail. I can't think of a single reason why we need them anymore when a better alternative already exists.

So no, I don't shed crocodile tears when banks lose money because of their own stupid, greed-motivated lending decisions; nor do I blame consumers for saying, "Eff the bank," and pursuing whatever course of action is in their own best interest. Call it karma or whatever you like, but what goes around, comes around.

-Rich
 
Last edited:
Exactly!

And the banks are now reaping what they sowed.

and so are the greedy people who bought houses they knew they could not afford but figured they would make money off anyway.

There were lots of bad players in this mess and to pick out one and heap all the blame on them is not realistic.
 
and so are the greedy people who bought houses they knew they could not afford but figured they would make money off anyway.

There were lots of bad players in this mess and to pick out one and heap all the blame on them is not realistic.

Which is exactly why I maintain that the losses due to decline in asset value should be divided between the banks and the mortgagees based on relative equity positions.

-Rich
 
Which is exactly why I maintain that the losses due to decline in asset value should be divided between the banks and the mortgagees based on relative equity positions.

-Rich

Since there is no provision in the loan contract for a share in the asset appreciation why do you think they should share in the loss? Particularly since the banks have no equity position in the asset. They loaned someone the money, they don't own the asset, the borrower does.
 
...
It goes on from there. Nowhere does it state that I am free to stop paying what I owe, if I decide it's not a good deal for me any more. It does say I can pay it off early and save on interest. It also says this: "If I do not pay the full amount of each monthly payment on the date it is due, I will be in default."
I bet it also doesn't state that if you lose your job, get disabled, or die before the mortgage is paid, you'll stop paying. But it happens. That is life.
 
He didn't back out of anything! The contract gave him LEGAL options. He exercises his LEGAL options. That's all.

The bank also has LEGAL options...to foreclose. They haven't done so yet. So he stays. So what? I'm sure the bank is happy that he's maintaining their asset for them. When the bank exercises their LEGAL option and forecloses then I'm sure he'll leave.

Bingo.

NOTE: The above was typed by a homeowner whose home has lost 20% of its value since being purchased in 2008 and who is now attempting to refinance and take advantage of today's low rates. I'm not upside down since we paid 20% down but NO bank to date will refinance our home because we're at a 100% loan to value. There are supposed to be programs out here to help those like me who "want to do the honorable thing" and stay in their home and continue to pay for it. But, the banks...the same greedy bastards who created this mess...aren't budging. And this for someone who's credit rating is over 800 and income is typically well into the 6 figures. I really feel for the "Average Joe". In my case, I'll probably just dip into savings and pay it off and be done with it so I no longer have to deal with the greedy bastards but most folks don't have that option.
Maybe just bring a check to the table to bring you just under 80% LTV? No reason to go house rich, cash poor just because the big banks are dirtbags. :)
 
.

All three clients were in seasonal businesses; all three had, for many years, tapped into their credit lines to carry them through the slow months;.............. They merely used their credit lines, as they had for years and years prior.......... It was in the contract.

....It was all legal, after all, because of the fine print in the contract that said the bank could terminate the businesses' lines for any reason or no reason at all,...... The contract said so.

....... It was all legal. The contract said so.

.......What they did was all legal. The contract said so.

........ What they did was all legal. The contract said so.


-Rich

First let me say I apologize.. I thought I remember you saying you were a LE in NY City... I must have you confused with another member in POA..

Once again you make valid points but your "3" good friends should read through the contract they signed closer.. All three didn't manage their money good enough to have proper reserves to carry them over during the lean times of year so they relied on a bank, who clearly put in writing the terms. They agreed to those terms and then proceeded to have a pity party when the bank acted legally on those terms... I see the same thing here in Jackson.... Alot of the contractors had credit lines.

They all had new diesel pick ups @ 50 grand +, New boats each year, new snowmobiles each year, took extended vacations to exotic locations. On the surface they appeared to be big operators and the clients would eat that up and give them the contracts to most of the 4-20 million dollar second homes being built...

Jackson was the hotbed in that market for all the years the economy was really cooking...

Then the shoe dropped and you should see these big operators now.:yikes:.

Most have left, some have committed suicide, the ones still here are driving 30 year old , beat up pick ups, doing odd jobs and every one is a very bitter person. The common thread among them is not ONE saved any money, they all spent it like drunken sailors on shore leave... :eek:

The only other group that lived the high life and fell even further were the realtors... Those idiots hemmoraged cash during the good times on anything that made them look like big operators in front of their peers and clients. Back then they could have lunch with a client , show them a 5 million dollar property, have the sales contract signed before dinner and they made 300,000 bucks four hours.... The ones still here are bitter, between suicide and failing health the vast majority that are still alive are driving cabs, serving food at Mc Donalds and various other bottom level jobs... I know it is not right but inside I am laughing my a$$ off at those "big operators, who when the times were good would not even give me the time of day as I was a peon small time contractor..:rolleyes:;)...

Running ones financial life is very similar to flying a very experimental plane with a unproven powerplant. You fly high to buy reserve gliding distance in case the inevitable happens, that gives you a fighting chance at survival.. Flying low is like living high off the hog.. it is exciting, fun and will kill you just about every time.:hairraise::sad:..

Rant off...

Ben.
 
Last edited:
I've been financially busted twice. I can't imagine turning to suicide as an answer for that. It's sad that people are, up your way, Ben.

In 2001 I literally had $0 income. Not even unemployment. (Stupid in hindsight, but that's water long under the bridge.) 2002-2003 my salary was less than half of what it was in 2000, both years.

1991-2012 average annual salary increase, 12%.

2001-2012 average salary increase annually, 1.4%. (Not including investments. Including the three negative years, with the one at $0.)

***** Never missed a mortgage payment. *****

Great Depression era grandfather's weird pseudo-religious way of saying, "Get back on the horse" was, "It's never a sin to be broke, just a sin to stay that way." It's a strange little phrase that made sense to us, but doesn't translate well.

Basically meant, "Get up and start over if you have to, but don't ever just lie down and quit. That's shameful."

He meant it too. If you were doing what you could, you were fine in his world view. He saw people far more broke than we ever will. If you just gave up, he'd have nothing to do with you, especially if he offered help, and got no sign you were making a serious effort.

I have no complaints. Lots more folks worse off than I am these days. If I were to go bust again, it would just be another round. Defintely nothing to kill oneself over.

There are piles of business and personal success stories that are all about just raw perseverance more than anything else. It helps if you're born with the stubborn-ass-gene.
 
Which is exactly why I maintain that the losses due to decline in asset value should be divided between the banks and the mortgagees based on relative equity positions.

I'm ok with that. But I don't believe you understand that the bank has zero equity in the property.
 
The bank, however, gets many of the benefits of ownership because of their collateral interest in the property. The bank gets to report the property as an asset, and more importantly, gets to borrow money against that asset and use it to make more money. If the value of the house appreciates, then its asset value to the bank also increases; so in effect, appreciation benefits both the "owner" and the bank.

any accountants/whatever want to correct me if I'm wrong about the statements below?

The bank isn't an owner of the property.

The bank doesn't report the property as an asset.

The bank reports the mortage as an asset.

The value of the note does not increase if the property value increases, except that it might be viewed as less risky and therefore more viable to be resold.
 
I'm ok with that. But I don't believe you understand that the bank has zero equity in the property.

Well, Bob, someone does. It sure isn't the "homeowner" -- especially for the first five years or so, when practically everything he's paying goes toward the interest.

So if it's not the bank, and it's not the borrower, then who has the equity?

-Rich
 
any accountants/whatever want to correct me if I'm wrong about the statements below?

The bank isn't an owner of the property.

The bank doesn't report the property as an asset.

The bank reports the
mortage as an asset.

The value of the note does not increase if the property value increases, except that it might be viewed as less risky and therefore more viable to be resold.

I don't know the official answer. However, I don't think the mortgage would be much of an asset were it not secured by the property. A 30-year unsecured personal loan for a couple of hundred thousand dollars would not be much of an asset, would it?
 
Against a tangible net worth of $20 million or $20 thousand?

I don't know the official answer. However, I don't think the mortgage would be much of an asset were it not secured by the property. A 30-year unsecured personal loan for a couple of hundred thousand dollars would not be much of an asset, would it?
 
Well, Bob, someone does. It sure isn't the "homeowner" -- especially for the first five years or so, when practically everything he's paying goes toward the interest.

So if it's not the bank, and it's not the borrower, then who has the equity?

-Rich

I believe you don't understand net equity, equity, liens, and ownership.

A $100,000 house has the same value (i.e., $100,000) independent of it being used to secure a loan.

The name(s) on the deed is evidence of ownership. Liens are something else.
 
First let me say I apologize.. I thought I remember you saying you were a LE in NY City... I must have you confused with another member in POA..

I think you're referring to when I lived in The City, and I did a lot of volunteer work under the auspices of a church group. I worked with people who were down on their luck for various reasons, including a lot of folks who'd had their share of run-ins with the law. As such, I had a lot of contact with the police, parole, probation, and so forth.

As a rule and an aside, I found people in LE to be the easiest to deal with, the most straightforward, and the most helpful -- especially if they really believed someone was trying to straighten himself out. What I got from Social Services was mainly inane babbling. What I got from the cops, probation, or parole was the real deal.

So no, I have never been a cop. But I do have the greatest possible respect and admiration for cops -- at least, the great majority of them.

Once again you make valid points but your "3" good friends should read through the contract they signed closer.. All three didn't manage their money good enough to have proper reserves to carry them over during the lean times of year so they relied on a bank, who clearly put in writing the terms. They agreed to those terms and then proceeded to have a pity party when the bank acted legally on those terms... I see the same thing here in Jackson.... Alot of the contractors had credit lines.

They all had new diesel pick ups @ 50 grand +, New boats each year, new snowmobiles each year, took extended vacations to exotic locations. On the surface they appeared to be big operators and the clients would eat that up and give them the contracts to most of the 4-20 million dollar second homes being built...

Jackson was the hotbed in that market for all the years the economy was really cooking...

Then the shoe dropped and you should see these big operators now.:yikes:.

Most have left, some have committed suicide, the ones still here are driving 30 year old , beat up pick ups, doing odd jobs and every one is a very bitter person. The common thread among them is not ONE saved any money, they all spent it like drunken sailors on shore leave... :eek:

The only other group that lived the high life and fell even further were the realtors... Those idiots hemmoraged cash during the good times on anything that made them look like big operators in front of their peers and clients. Back then they could have lunch with a client , show them a 5 million dollar property, have the sales contract signed before dinner and they made 300,000 bucks four hours.... The ones still here are bitter, between suicide and failing health the vast majority that are still alive are driving cabs, serving food at Mc Donalds and various other bottom level jobs... I know it is not right but inside I am laughing my a$$ off at those "big operators, who when the times were good would not even give me the time of day as I was a peon small time contractor..:rolleyes:;)...

Running ones financial life is very similar to flying a very experimental plane with a unproven powerplant. You fly high to buy reserve gliding distance in case the inevitable happens, that gives you a fighting chance at survival.. Flying low is like living high off the hog.. it is exciting, fun and will kill you just about every time.:hairraise::sad:..

Rant off...

Ben.

Actually, as I mentioned, two of the clients did make good on the checks from their own resources. They used the credit line for convenience (corporate versus personal purse and all that), not necessity.

The third client clearly fit the description you gave of irresponsible spendthrifts in your neck of the woods; but he was such an eminently nice guy that he sort of got away with it. For a while. And then he was forced to grow up, and assisted in that by the retired gentleman the credit union assigned as his mentor.

You correctly point out that banks act according to their contracts, and that (most of the time) what they do is legal. I've never disputed that. I think the laws are slanted in their favor since they wrote most of them; but the law is what it is, and they take advantage of the law to the maximum possible extent in the pursuit of their own interests.

And so do people who walk away, file bankruptcy, or pursue any other lawful means that are in their own interests. So why are the banks the poor victims, but the homeowners who walk away or file bankruptcy because it's in their interest to do so dirtbags, scumbags, deadbeats, and so forth?

The law is the law; and if a debtor uses the law to his own advantage, he or she is no more a dirtbag than the bank that does so.

-Rich
 
Last edited:
It seems like many here are ascribing personal morals or ethics to homeowners with mortgages that they do not ascribe to financial institutions who write the loans. It angers me as well that many borrowers do not pay their obligations. It angers me primarily because those that don't pay are being subsidized in their living expenses by financial institutions that I have to do business with, and more importantly by the federal govt semi-directly through Fanny and Freddie which are insolvent and supported by tax dollars.

This is not right, and the borrowers are at fault without question. Lets look at where they might have gotten the idea to act the way they do. Many banks wanted to get into the financial investment game, and they lobbied congress hard enough and long enough that the rules on investing mortgage securities were loosened to the point where there was no longer any effective dividing line in regulations between a mortgage security and a derivative. So, banks doing what they do decided to chase the highest ROI. Hey - if I was a banker and I saw big ROI going by the wayside while my ROI was stuck at mortgage rates I might chase it too.

Sadly, when you gamble big, sometimes you lose big. Then came the congress. With unlimited funds at it's disposal, and a lobby group that collectively said they were "too big to fail" congress decided to act. They indebted the public to the tune of a few trillion dollars so that certain segments of the industry could become whole again at the expense of the homeowner, who first borrowed and promised to pay the bank back. It was the bank, in concert with the treasury(US HR) that has acted in bad faith.

First: NO ONE is too big to fail. Any privately held, or publicly traded company gains and loses on it's merit. AIG, GS, BofA, and the other cast of characters in this mess had the option to declare BK, sell assets, liquidate, and get out of the market. Yes, there would be an adjustment, and it would have been bad for the market in whole. But, in every change in the market, someone bets it will get worse, and someone bets it will get better. That is the nature of a securities trade. The big players didn't want to face the music. They wanted the assurance of a mortgage backed security with the return of the derivative. Not gonna happen in an efficient market.

Second: Congress caved. Those we elected to protect our treasury and act wisely in use of the funds WE provide them failed us. If a private company did what the people in the HR and Senate did, they would all presumably face prison time. No one in congress will face any kind of responsibility for their mistakes.

Third: If you think that a promise to repay should exceed the recourse of the underlying asset, we are doomed. This would eventually bring back debtors prison, and that is a road that you don't want to go down ever.

Fourth: Fiduciary institutions made promises too. They promised their employees a pensions after x years of faithful service. Go look at the Pension Guarantee Corp, www.pbgc.gov/ (there's that word 'guarantee') which is a federal entity now tasked with paying out pennies on the dollar from companies that have reneged on their own promise to pay a pension to their workers.

Call me when all these captains of industry, and congressmen start acting responsibly, and then I'll work up more anger at the individuals who walk away from their fiscal obligations to the bank and the treasury to provide for their family. One is protecting their wealth, the other is protecting kids, wives, husbands equity.
 
I don't know the official answer. However, I don't think the mortgage would be much of an asset were it not secured by the property. A 30-year unsecured personal loan for a couple of hundred thousand dollars would not be much of an asset, would it?

Right. The value of the note on the secondary market would be a function of the risk, right? A $100,000 mortage on a piece of property valued at over $10,000,000 would probably be a pretty safe note.
 
I believe you don't understand net equity, equity, liens, and ownership.

A $100,000 house has the same value (i.e., $100,000) independent of it being used to secure a loan.

The name(s) on the deed is evidence of ownership. Liens are something else.

Yes, Noel, I understand the difference between ownership of the house and ownership of the mortgage to the house. That's the legal explanation.

On a practical basis, if I buy a house today with 20 percent down, and sell it tomorrow for the same price I paid for it, I owe the bank 80 percent of that amount (ignoring the various other costs associated with transfer of real property).

I'm not trying to argue that the banks are in violation of the law, because they're not. I do get that, Bob, as well as the basics of the underlying concepts. But I also believe that the laws are slanted heavily in favor of lenders; and that when a borrower exploits those laws in his or her own best interests, he or she is no more of a dirtbag than the banks that do so every day of the week.

If banks were invested in the appreciation or depreciation of homes that they write mortgages on, I truly believe that we would not be having this discussion because the banking industry would never have been so careless in the first place.

-Rich
 
Last edited:
If banks were invested in the appreciation or depreciation of homes that they write mortgages on, I truly believe that we would not be having this discussion because the banking industry would never have been so careless in the first place.
-Rich
If the banks were invested in the appreciation or depreciation of the property you wouldn't pay a mortgage, you'd pay rent. You also wouldn't be able to install a swimming pool, remodel a bathroom, or let it fall to pieces around you.

If you're keeping score - the owners of mortgages have done poorly. The holders of property have done poorly. Mortgage servicers earn a modest fee. The originators of mortgage made some money. The securitizers of mortgages made fortunes.

Securitized mortgages were mispriced by the market mostly due to the risk characteristics being tragically misunderstood. This misunderstanding was, in part, facilitated by misaligned incentives. These securitized mortgages promised high yields for anticipated risk resulting in tremendous demand - this demand lead to increasingly creative securitization products. When the music stopped anyone still in the game lost.
 
Back
Top