Flying with an expired annual

AKBill

AKBill

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AKBill
So my annual is due by the end of the month. Weather not looking good to fly, but I would like to fly the plane before doing a compression test. The question is can I fly with an out of date annual in order to warm the engine to do a compression test? Do I contact FSDO to get a permit to do the flight?

Thanks
 
You don't need to fly it to get it warmed up for a compression check. Do a ground run for 5-10 minutes....then run it up as normal....then taxi back.

And yes you may do this with an out of annual plane.

Now, if the plane needs to be moved to another airport a ferry permit from the FSDO is required.
 
what he said

and if you do go into the air, you need a ferry permit first, but its not needed, a ground run would be good enough
 
Once it is out of annual, you can get a ferry permit to fly it to a place to have the annual done. That would be the only way to fly it. If you are already at the place where you will do the annual then there is no need to fly it.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
You don't need to fly it to get it warmed up for a compression check. Do a ground run for 5-10 minutes....then run it up as normal....then taxi back.

And yes you may do this with an out of annual plane.

Now, if the plane needs to be moved to another airport a ferry permit from the FSDO is required.
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I have owned the plane for 20 years and have done what you said, warm up then run up. I really would like to fly for an hour or so then do the compression check. Just to see the numbers...:)
 
Going to have to go through your AP and a FSDO in that case, lots of work for a unesscary flight IMO
 
James331 said:
Going to have to go through your AP and a FSDO in thatcase, lots of work for a unesscary flight IMO
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You are probably right, just curious if there would be a difference in the compression. Thanks
 
AKBill said:
I have owned the plane for 20 years and have done what you said, warm up then run up. I really would like to fly for an hour or so then do the compression check. Just to see the numbers...:)
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get the permit if you really need to fly it.....but it isn't necessary for the compression check.

btw....more important than the compression check have your A&P look inside each cylinder. Have them perform an inspection of the cylinder walls, exhaust valve face, seat, and visually watch the valve seat (with minimal wobble when seating). This inspection is far more valuable than any compression leak reading.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/valve-safety
 
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James331 said:
what he said

and if you do go into the air, you need a ferry permit first, but its not needed, a ground run would be good enough
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It's called a Special Airworthiness Certificate, form 8130-6. Last one I did, due to short staffing it was two days before they got to it, good luck with your local office. You can ask for anything on it, to worm up the oil out of annual might be a new one on them, who knows they just might approve it.
 
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brien23 said:
It's called a Special Airworthiness Certificate, form 8130-6. Last one I did, due to short staffing it was two days before they got to it, good luck with your local office.
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Form 8130-6 is the application for the permit. It is not the permit itself.

But yes,it is a form of Special Airworthiness Certificate but can be called either a special flight permit or ferry permit as well.
 
Just channeling my inner Tom-D here, but isn't that a "leak down test"?
 
You've been an owner/pilot for 20 years and you need to ask the question???

Get the inspection done for airworthiness. Satisfy your compression curiosity later. Compression checks are simple enough to do.
 
JOhnH said:
Just channeling my inner Tom-D here, but isn't that a "leak down test"?
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Actually the FAA calls it a " Differential Compression test" Leak Down tests are normally how much pressure is lost over a timed period.
 
Stewartb said:
You've been an owner/pilot for 20 years and you need to ask the question???

Get the inspection done for airworthiness. Satisfy your compression curiosity later. Compression checks are simple enough to do.
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This brings up a good point......will the mechanics jump on your bird as soon as you taxi up to their hangar?

Most cases they won't. So just drop it off and don't worry bout it. Let them do their thing. They will do the ground runups and checks to warm the engine before performing the compression checks.
 
AKBill said:
So my annual is due by the end of the month. Weather not looking good to fly, but I would like to fly the plane before doing a compression test. The question is can I fly with an out of date annual in order to warm the engine to do a compression test? Do I contact FSDO to get a permit to do the flight?

Thanks
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They will not issue a Special Flight Permit for that reason. These permits are for moving an aircraft to a place where maintenance can e preformed.
 
If you were trying to find a cylinder with morning sickness would you warm the engine up?
 
AKBill said:
I have owned the plane for 20 years and have done what you said, warm up then run up. I really would like to fly for an hour or so then do the compression check. Just to see the numbers...:)
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Numbers won't change.
The only legal way to fly after the annual expires is with a ferry permit. Flying to warm up for engine checks and landing back at same airport does not justify a permit.

If you think the numbers might change, do the ground run, get your compression numbers and finish the annual. Then go fly an hour and come back for another compression check. Any changes would be insignificant.
 
BillTIZ said:
Numbers won't change.
The only legal way to fly after the annual expires is with a ferry permit. Flying to warm up for engine checks and landing back at same airport does not justify a permit.

If you think the numbers might change, do the ground run, get your compression numbers and finish the annual. Then go fly an hour and come back for another compression check. Any changes would be insignificant.
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I have one cylinder that has about 50 hours on it and was thinking a flight before the compression test might be a good idea. From what everyone has posted looks like I'm on the wrong track. Thanks for the input everyone and have a good turkey day.

Bill B
 
Also - don't forget to talk to your insurance company if you intend to get a ferry permit. My insurance application asks something to the tune of "will the plane be operated without a standard airworthiness cert in force" or something like that. Ferry permit != standard AW cert.
 
mtuomi said:
Also - don't forget to talk to your insurance company if you intend to get a ferry permit. My insurance application asks something to the tune of "will the plane be operated without a standard airworthiness cert in force" or something like that. Ferry permit != standard AW cert.
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I believe that statement is to imply that another AWC has been issued like a E/RD. The ferry permit is not in Lew of the standard AWC.
 
Tom-D said:
I believe that statement is to imply that another AWC has been issued like a E/RD. The ferry permit is not in Lew of the standard AWC.
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But is the standard AWC in force without an annual?

"A standard airworthiness certificate remains valid as long as the aircraft meets its approved type design, is in a condition for safe operation and maintenance, preventative maintenance, and alterations are performed in accordance with 14 CFR parts 21, 43, and 91."
 
mtuomi said:
But is the standard AWC in force without an annual?

"A standard airworthiness certificate remains valid as long as the aircraft meets its approved type design, is in a condition for safe operation and maintenance, preventative maintenance, and alterations are performed in accordance with 14 CFR parts 21, 43, and 91."
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Special flight permits do not replace the AWC. they only allow the aircraft to be flown while it does not comply with the airworthiness required for normal operations.
 
Tom-D said:
Special flight permits do not replace the AWC. they only allow the aircraft to be flown while it does not comply with the airworthiness required for normal operations.
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So my original statement was correct - for insurance purposes, the original AWC is not in force without a valid annual.
 
AKBill said:
I have owned the plane for 20 years and have done what you said, warm up then run up. I really would like to fly for an hour or so then do the compression check. Just to see the numbers...:)
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Then you should have flown it before annual expired. You'll have to get a ferry permit. If you have a friend at the fsdo you might get one. If not I think you'll just have to wait until after the annual to fly for an hour the do compression test.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Then you should have flown it before annual expired. You'll have to get a ferry permit. If you have a friend at the fsdo you might get one. If not I think you'll just have to wait until after the annual to fly for an hour the do compression test.
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So very true, I should have done it during the summer when I had the time. My bad....
 
By the way, I agree about flying for a compression check being pointless, but I did just get a ferry permit a few months ago to get the plane TO the annual.

It's a painless process. You scan a logbook entry from an A&P at the field you are at that says that the plane is safe for the intended flight and fill out a few lines on a application form and email both the FSDO. They email back a ferry permit a few hours later. You typically have ten days to make the flight.

By the way, given the regulatory and insurance headaches of actually having an accident a few weeks after that flight, I am glad I did **NOT** just fly it out of annual without the ferry permit (or let my BFR expire).
 
mtuomi said:
So my original statement was correct - for insurance purposes, the original AWC is not in force without a valid annual.
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Read the back the AWC.
 
Actually it's on the front. Block 6. Terms and Conditions

Unless sooner surrendered, suspended, revoked, or a termination date is otherwise established by the Administrator this airworthiness certificate is effective as long as the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations are performed in accordance with Parts 21, 43, and 91 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, as appropriate, and the aircraft is registered in the United States.
 
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