Flying Friends???

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Samuel Peight, Feb 12, 2020.

  1. Samuel Peight

    Samuel Peight Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi, guys! I have a quick question that I would like advice/opinions on. Just a little background on me... I am 17 years old, and I have my private pilot's license. I have around 80 hours and am doing some groundwork on my IFR and coordinating with a instructor to start working on my Instrument rating. I actually paid for my private pilot's license myself, I am home schooled so therefore I was able to get a job. Recently my dad and I purchased a Cherokee 180(He paid most of it, but I did contribute some.) with the intention of using it for time building, and some flight training(My dad is working on his ppl). I have around 20 hours in the Cherokee and the rest is in a Cessna 172. My end goal would be a career in aviation, perhaps charter or Airlines. Anyway enough about me.

    My problem is that my parents do not feel I should take my friends on a plane ride. I think they feel I should be a little older before I do that, or perhaps they are worried about goofing around. I do understand the risk involved with passengers, such as increased chance of distraction. I have flown my family members, and am comfortable with the increased weight and different handling characteristics of more people than just me and my instructor. I do have a passenger briefing outline, so i'm not overly concerned about that part. I do however understand the need for a good briefing, especially with first time flyers. I do believe I am a safe and conscientious pilot, although I think everyone would say that about themselves. I do realize I need to know my limitations, and always be alert to complacency and other hazardous attitudes. And my plan would be to limit myself to just 1 passenger at first, so that there would be less to handle.

    I would like advice on how to handle this with my parents. I obviously respect and honor their wishes that I don't have passengers. However I would like to know if anyone has had a similar experience, or if they would have a suggestion on how to communicate to them, my side of the issue. For all I know, you guys feel they are correct, and I would welcome that input as well. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
     
  2. smv

    smv Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There is no reason to go any further than this.
     
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  3. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wow. That is great you have your PPL already! I wish I had done that at your age!
    I don’t have any great advice, but it struck me that you are having to guess at why your parents don’t want you to have friends as passengers. Why not ask them respectfully, so at least you are sure of their reasons, and also it might open a dialogue to see if there is any way you can demonstrate, or prove to them that the worries are unfounded?

    It might be something you just can’t change, but at least also might get an idea as to when they would be more comfortable with it.
     
  4. Croomrider

    Croomrider Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Your parents are probably worried about distractions, and maybe the added liability. Most people your age don't understand liability. Also, 80 hours is not a lot. Be glad you are where you are and build some more time, then your parents will come around.
     
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  5. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Think of it the same as when you first got your drivers license. You need more practice (both are a license to learn!), to understand distractions, to understand how to deal with pax when something goes wrong (they're panicking and you're trying to manage the problem AND the pax!) and so on. Give it a few months....or with a Cherokee, your dad in the back and one pax in front with you?
     
  6. mcmanigle

    mcmanigle Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Agree with all of the above. Soon enough you'll be at a point in life where your parents' advice will be just that -- advice. In the meantime, I concur with the recommendation to get an idea of what their specific concerns are. Maybe there is an arrangement that will be more preferable to them depending on W&B. You plus CFI plus friend? You plus parent plus friend plus friend's parent?
     
  7. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    You’ve taken your family up with no issues so what makes you taking your friends up any different? Hopefully you can change their minds. That’s a great accomplishment at a young age!
     
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  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, I’ve been there. I got my certificate at 17 too during my junior year of high school. I took several of my friends for rides and thinking back on it, I’m sure many of their parents didn’t actually know what they were doing. There was one girl that I took up a time or two, who I actually ended up taking to prom. When I went over to her house to pick her up, her mom asked me if I was the pilot she’s been hearing about, I told her yes. She then began to tell me how concerned she was and how it made her very nervous etc. I don’t recall what I told her exactly, but there really wasn’t a whole lot that I could say to reassure her that her daughter was fine flying with a 17 year old kid. Now, she didn’t say no, she just expressed concerned, which I respected completely.

    So, in the end, there really isn’t anything you can do. If I was a parent, I have to admit that I surely wouldn’t want my kid flying with a 17 year old pilot. If they don’t feel comfortable than they don’t. Just wait for someone who really does want to go flying with you, they’re the ones you want to take anyway!

    I’m not sure how good my parents felt about me taking friends up, but they never really said anything other than ‘be careful’ (I have the best parents though:)).

    Good luck!
     
  9. smv

    smv Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Spoken like someone who has never witnessed an unsupervised group of teenage boys...

    :goofy:
     
  10. Snowmass

    Snowmass Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Well, I got my PPL at 18 and immediately flew friends so it's obvious where I stand, but PAX liability should be a big concern. If I were your parents I would make sure this that this is entirely your plane. In fact after 8000 hours I will not carry passengers unless in my will. The rule in our most corrupt society is that it' s always somebody else's fault in an accident and they must pay you and, of course, your lawyer. And millions of dollars of insurance may not be enough.
     
  11. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Pattern Altitude

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    I'd also guess it's a concern about showing off or goofing off with others. Most states have recognized that accident rates increase when young drivers have their friends in the car, and many are placing limits on youth licenses. It's a combination of peer pressure and the feeling of invincibility when young. I know I did stupid things at that age that I was lucky to survive, and looking back can't believe the risks I took. And that's coming from a guy that still regularly flies airplanes and runs into burning buildings.
     
  12. Geosync

    Geosync Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ok it will be hard to digest what I'm going to say, because wisdom comes with age, experience and failure. at 17, you don't have any of that yet, but think you do(we all did at 17). Just wait. Get more experience, wait until at least 18, better yet 19. Then you'll have more time under your belt, and the GoPros by then for your youtube videos will be like actually flying with you.
     
  13. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I don’t think waiting a year (or two) is going to make any difference on other people’s perception of his ability as a pilot.
     
  14. Warlock

    Warlock Cleared for Takeoff

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    As a parent...and a teen age boy with a ppl once...also having a daughter a few years older than you who is rated...your parents are on track...give it a year or two...kudos to being home schooled...
     
  15. PlasticCigar

    PlasticCigar Pre-Flight

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    I took my friends flying when I was 17 but I had 200 hours by then. I did some pretty dumb things as a teenager in an airplane and I certainly was more confident than I had any reason to be. I don’t think I would let my son take friends flying at that age.

    You may not want to hear it, but your brain doesn’t fully develop until you’re 25 or so. Doesn’t mean you can’t fly a plane, but your judgement and ability to think through things will continue to improve. Your parents probably don’t want you to take friends because they know that taking passengers increases your risk of something bad happening (look at any Flight Risk Assessment Tool) and they probably don’t want to put you or your friends in that situation.

    It’s awesome that you learned to fly and you obviously have shown good judgement by working on your instrument rating right away but keep in mind that aviation is a marathon and not a sprint and take time to pace yourself and enjoy the moment. You’ll have plenty of time to take passengers later. Just focus now on learning as much as you can and being a safe pilot.
     
  16. woodchucker

    woodchucker Cleared for Takeoff

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    Most of the comments here are exactly on track. You may be the safest pilot in the world, and maybe taking a friend with you once or twice would be a non-factor. But kids + more kids = recipe for disaster. I didn't become a pilot until my early 40s, but I teach high school, and in general schools lose one kid per year due to stupid driving tricks with their friends. Allow me to share a sobering story. The first flying club I joined after getting my ppl had a beautiful 180 hp 172. Before I had a chance to fly that particular airplane, a young member pilot (18 if I remember correctly) was flying himself and his younger brother from Salt Lake to a hockey tournament in Las Vegas. The young pilot decided to descend into the canyon between St. George, UT and Mesquite, NV and showboat for his brother. He almost made it, but ended up planting the airplane into a cliff wall. I've flown over that exact same canyon, in another one of that same club's aircraft. It's daunting to see even 3000' AGL.

    Bring a friend, but bring your dad also. There is no hurry in this process. At your age and minimal amount of flying hours (80 is nothing) I would suggest getting your IR and commercial first. This will give you much more flying experience and flying maturity. Also, I don't know what your XC time looks like, but get a bunch of solo XC time as well. That's where you really begin learning.

    Best wishes on your journey. Enjoy every step of the way.
     
  17. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think this is an excellent point. I already mentioned if it were me I’d ask my parents what the concern was, just to know, and still think that might be a good idea but also it may be too that your parents don’t want to alienate friends or other parents. A lot of parents would be very uncomfortable knowing their child was flying in an airplane piloted by a 17 year old. It wouldn’t matter that the OP is responsible, wouldn’t help if the parents viewed GA flying as dangerous. Also, maybe 80 hrs is also part of it.
    But still think the best point to start Is to get more information from the parents.
     
  18. N1120A

    N1120A Cleared for Takeoff

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    At your age, there is a natural urge to want to fit in and show off. It is normal. It also makes hauling friends around alone a little more risky. Add in time pressures and the like and it can lead to poor ADM. Your parents are right to think about that, especially since liability is still on them. Besides, you become a better pilot while working on your IFR, so why not get better before flying friends and really impress them?
     
  19. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Man I wouldn’t want my 17 year old self taking friends in a plane. Kids have a great sense of adventure. Put them together and the risks are high. Too great for something that can turn so bad so fast.

    it’s difficult to control teenage kids. Especially when you are a teenage kid. They don’t understand the importance of keeping focus like you do, they haven’t experienced being PIC, so don’t expect them to treat it like you would.

    Think about your future if you kill or even just injure one of your friends. Or even if you just damage the plane badly. Flying will never be the same, and you might be kissing your plans goodbye.

    as others said, for now take your dad with you, or one of your friends parents is another option. I won’t even fly young kids unless their parents go along, because I know I won’t be able to give them the attention they may need while I’m doing my job.
     
  20. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    As a parent of a 21 and 19 year old (as well as a person who got their license at a young age), I’m in agreement with your parents.
    Instead, take some videos, then show your friends. Tell your friends you’ll fly over their house at a certain time, then do it. Post photos of yourself in the plane on social media.
     
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  21. Arnold

    Arnold Line Up and Wait

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    Seems to me this is a matter of trust and you deciding what kind of man you wish to be. One who is trusted by the people in your life or one who breaks the rules for short term gain. You get to decide.
     
  22. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ? Not the issue. The kid said he would honor their wishes. He is obeying their rules. He wishes to change the rule.
    I'd say its about patience, not trust.
     
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  23. wheaties

    wheaties Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When I first took my buddies driving at the age of 17 they thought it was funny to start hitting me in the back of the head while we were cruising at 50mph down a busy road in the rain. Think about that. I do.

    I nearly had several accidents because my friends were such dumbasses. I also thought I was perfectly safe and in control racing 70mph on a winding 30mph speed limit road while they egged me on. I was also a dumbass.

    I felt the same way you did on many occasions when Iwas 17.I did not have the cognizance nor the attention span to truly know my own limitations at 17. I think I stopped trying to do dumb **** around 23 because I finally got to the point where I recognized I was doing dumb ****. Until then, I really didn't even realize how stupid I was.
     
  24. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    This is an example of the typical stereotype that comes with young people. There’s many ignorant 17 year olds. There’s also many well grounded, responsible ones too, but most people don’t acknowledge them as being so.

    Personally, I don’t think this comes down to age level, but confidence level in the child. Maybe the parents feel like he needs to have more experience as a pilot before chauffeuring friends around. As someone who was 17 just six years ago, I believe that an individual can be responsible and act like an adult no matter what age they are and being placed into an activity that has adult like consequences should not be taken lightly.
     
  25. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pattern Altitude

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    Your parents’ decision is fair and reasonable. Your friends probably have parents, too. The average adult is afraid of small airplanes. They are not likely to allow their children to fly in a small plane piloted by an experienced adult, much less a (in legal and parenting terms) child. So you probably don’t have that many friends who will be able to ride with you and be honest with their parents about it, anyhow.

    That said, build experience and trust when opportunities exist. What about taking one of your parents and one of your friends somewhere for a $100 hamburger or the like?
     
  26. Snowmass

    Snowmass Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If most of you do not think a 17 year old should carry passengers then why not raise the minimum age for a PPL? Yes, it has been scientifically demonstrated that the human brain is not fully developed until age 25 (my source Scientific American) which I find vindicating since when I was 16 we had a debate in high school on lowering the voting age from 21 to 18. I wanted to raise it to 25.
     
  27. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    The kid's 17. Maybe he doesn't have any assets. If not, there is minimal reason for him to worry about being sued.
     
  28. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    The problem is that we don't know you as well as your parents, and we don't know them. So we don't know if they are being hyper-protective or they have good reason to worry about you being distracted by your friends. As a parent, I can't imagine the pain I would feel if something were to happen to my son. He's irreplaceable. You don't really understand the depths of that fear as a parent until you have your own.
     
  29. crash7

    crash7 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’ll bet his parents have assets...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  30. Snowmass

    Snowmass Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Which is why I said put the plane in the kid's name. Did you not notice?
     
  31. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    Don't know what state, or the state's laws, but probably no basis for liability for the parents. Heck, Dad's not even a pilot.
     
  32. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    Nope.
     
  33. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    You moved the goalposts. I haven't seen a single person on this thread say that a 17 year old should not carry passengers. I bet his parents fly as his passengers. I bet his parents would be fine with him flying with a friend if a parent were present.
     
  34. Arnold

    Arnold Line Up and Wait

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    To a large degree it is about patience as you state. My concern was not the stated question - how can I convince my parents? I did not make clear my true concern. How does he address the best friend, also 17 perhaps younger, when they beg him for a ride. How does he resist the urge we all have to share the joy and excitement of flying with his sweatheart? My suggestion is that he address it as a matter of trust. Rather than a parental like admonishment calling for patience, I focused on the underlying character issue of trust and what it means to be trusted. Rather than saying my parents told me to be patient he can say: "I really want to take you flying, but it is a matter of character for me, my parents trust me and it is important to me to be a trustworthy person."

    So, you are right, based solely on what he posted I did not answer his question.
     
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  35. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Count your blessings. All of my hobbies are things my parents have never done and had no interest in learning. Everything I do now I've learned and done on my own dime. Abide by your parents rules and enjoy flying the plane. Someday when you're on your own you'll hopefully be able to afford these things and then YOU get to make the rules.
     
  36. Samuel Peight

    Samuel Peight Filing Flight Plan

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    I definitely agree that the liability is a definitly a problem these days, and with me being under 18 my parents are legally responsible for my actions. Although I do have quite a bit of insurance, that doesn't always cover you. Plus insurance company's love to get out of paying. I think the bigger issue to myself as well as my parents, is the human life aspect of it. Obviously I would be devastated if anything happened to my passengers, and my parents would be devastated if anything happened to me.
     
  37. Samuel Peight

    Samuel Peight Filing Flight Plan

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    Yeah, I can't believe what some people my age do. And it is definitely frustrating to have to be trying to show people that is not how every 17yr is.
     
  38. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pattern Altitude

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    In my state, a judgment is subject to execution for 20 years after entry. It doesn’t matter if you have assets today. It matters if you plan to have assets later. I’m 37 now. A judgment taken against me when I was 17 could still, today, be collected from my assets, like my airplanes or my house, although they would probably start with my retirement accounts and other investments while sending out annual garnishment papers to take most of my income.

    A personal judgment can arise for many reasons. No insurance. Insurance denies coverage. Insurance limits inadequate for claim. With or without insurance, be safe out there. You are responsible for your mistakes and you can pay with your life, your nice things, and/or your ability to have nice things when you are your parents’ age.

    Back to the OP’s issue, I stand behind what I said above. Go flying with your dad and your best friend or your girlfriend and her mom. Whatever works. Two reasons. First, teenagers generally act at the level of the least mature one present but there’s an exception for when a responsible parent is there. (Not all parents are responsible, mind you.) Nobody is immune to the teenager group stupidity phenomenon, and even if you are there is no reason for your parents or your friends’ parents to believe it until they see it in action. Second, when the other kid or the parent has a panic attack because the plane is falling from the sky and the wings are being shaken off by severe turbulence (or, as pilots would refer to it, a stabilized approach in smooth air), having a third person in the plane to either calm or physically restrain the panicked person could save your life.
     
  39. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I can relate.
     
  40. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pattern Altitude

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    People only think that all teenagers are alike because it is so near to the truth. Don’t worry about proving them wrong. Just let them be wrong and work within their framework. Life is so much easier when you accept the things you can’t change. I wish someone had been able to convince me of that when I was 17.