Flying club

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Tony R

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Mar 12, 2019
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I think I found a great flight club. They are 2 miles from my office. Planes availability is great. $2500 equity buy in, $133 per month and the Hobbs is about $128 for a Cherokee 180hp ifr and $116 for a 172 with a new engine. They allow student pilots, but I guess the students never fly. They kicked a couple out who haven't logged time in over a year.

I was about to buy a plane but the insurance quotes were silly for a student like me, nearly $5,000 for the first year. I found this club. I meet with the membership on Thursday. Can't wait.

Clubs seem like the most economical we to fly. So many men but few actually fly.
 
Clubs are a great way to fly, especially equity clubs that allow student.

You should ask about special assessments and the overhaul funds for all the planes.
 
and currency requirements to fly their aircraft. A local club requires you to have flown in the make and model in the past 30 days or you won't be able to rent till you get a new checkout.
 
I'll always recommend starting out in a club. You get a built in support network of other pilots and don't have to deal with the complexities and costs of ownership solo. You also get a peek behind the curtain as to what it takes to maintain an airplane. When/if you do decide to buy, you'll be much better prepared. A couple hundred hours and an instrument rating make a big difference in insurance pricing.

Good luck!
 
At least this sounds like a legit flying club, so you should be good. Seems there are a lot of flight schools advertising themselves as clubs. If anyone can just walk in off the street and start taking lessons, they are not a “club” you want to be part of. Renters can careless about the planes, they will use and abuse because they have no investment in the plane except getting their hours.
 
Tony R said:
I think I found a great flight club. They are 2 miles from my office. Planes availability is great. $2500 equity buy in, $133 per month and the Hobbs is about $128 for a Cherokee 180hp ifr and $116 for a 172 with a new engine. They allow student pilots, but I guess the students never fly. They kicked a couple out who haven't logged time in over a year.

I was about to buy a plane but the insurance quotes were silly for a student like me, nearly $5,000 for the first year. I found this club. I meet with the membership on Thursday. Can't wait.

Clubs seem like the most economical we to fly. So many men but few actually fly.
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Why kick out dues paying members? If they are trying to hold a strict ratio that's a dumb way to run a club. More members = more cash for upgrades and another plane. Availability should matter more than a set ratio.

They allow student pilots but the students never fly? That goes against the 'kick out inactive members' part.

Also without specifics, its either a ok or bad deal. Hangars? AnP/IA available? Overnight rules? Checkout/hour requirements? Are the planes IFR? Grass strips ok? So many questions, not many answers.

$2500 buy in is a hard no for me and no, I don't want to wait to sell my share.

One post said that you need to fly once every 30 days or you need a new checkout? That's even a more ridiculous stipulation.

My past experience with clubs has been bad. I was heavily pressured to fly a club plane back to the original airport even though the reason I diverted was due to Tennessee thunderstorms. The entire week was a crap show for weather and every day I got a call 'people want to rent'. I told them where the plane was and they could go get it and fly in gusts/thunderstorms/rain. I offered to drive them to the other airport so they wouldn't have a car parked at a remote field. I finally called the safety officer and at the next scheduled meeting I raised heck.

Never again.
 
pfarber said:
Why kick out dues paying members? If they are trying to hold a strict ratio that's a dumb way to run a club. More members = more cash for upgrades and another plane. Availability should matter more than a set ratio.
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For just one, I have heard of insurance underwriters having target member to aircraft ratios.
 
pfarber said:
Why kick out dues paying members? If they are trying to hold a strict ratio that's a dumb way to run a club. More members = more cash for upgrades and another plane. Availability should matter more than a set ratio.

They allow student pilots but the students never fly? That goes against the 'kick out inactive members' part.

Also without specifics, its either a ok or bad deal. Hangars? AnP/IA available? Overnight rules? Checkout/hour requirements? Are the planes IFR? Grass strips ok? So many questions, not many answers.

$2500 buy in is a hard no for me and no, I don't want to wait to sell my share.

One post said that you need to fly once every 30 days or you need a new checkout? That's even a more ridiculous stipulation.

My past experience with clubs has been bad. I was heavily pressured to fly a club plane back to the original airport even though the reason I diverted was due to Tennessee thunderstorms. The entire week was a crap show for weather and every day I got a call 'people want to rent'. I told them where the plane was and they could go get it and fly in gusts/thunderstorms/rain. I offered to drive them to the other airport so they wouldn't have a car parked at a remote field. I finally called the safety officer and at the next scheduled meeting I raised heck.

Never again.
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Sounds like you had an isolated bad experience with a flying club.in general, equity flying clubs are among the best ways for normal people to safely fly decent aircraft on a regular basis and actually get some utility out of GA. It’s also a great pathway for those who intend to own an aircraft in the future, as it gives you a realistic view into the demands of ownership.

Some club rules are better than others, and 30 days sounds insane (90 days is much more typical), but many club rules are written in the wake of some expensive insurance claim.

A critical component of a flying club is their safety culture. Are they deferring maintenance and not fixing installed equipment in the name of saving club members money? Are the board members regularity flying? If most of them aren’t, that’s a bad sign. Ideally the club has a safety officer who can help when weather or maintenance makes flying home unsafe. Lots of questions to ask before joining. Also, ask former members their thoughts too. A good club will have low turnover, but still some…folks move, up their own planes, etc. former members will give you a less-biased view of the club.

Good luck!
 
Brad Z said:
Sounds like you had an isolated bad experience with a flying club
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The thing is that many end up projecting their personal experience, even if isolated, to everything. Personally, in the 30+ years I’ve been flying, I’ve never been an owner. School/FBO rentals, commercial “clubs,” social clubs, private rentals. So far, no bad experience with any of them, aside from the usual “down for maintenance” issues. Even professionally, most of the club problems I’ve seen have been due to a bad member rather than a bad club.

But I know that experience is not everyone’s.
 
pfarber said:
Why kick out dues paying members? If they are trying to hold a strict ratio that's a dumb way to run a club. More members = more cash for upgrades and another plane. Availability should matter more than a set ratio.

They allow student pilots but the students never fly? That goes against the 'kick out inactive members' part.

Also without specifics, its either a ok or bad deal. Hangars? AnP/IA available? Overnight rules? Checkout/hour requirements? Are the planes IFR? Grass strips ok? So many questions, not many answers.

$2500 buy in is a hard no for me and no, I don't want to wait to sell my share.

One post said that you need to fly once every 30 days or you need a new checkout? That's even a more ridiculous stipulation.

My past experience with clubs has been bad. I was heavily pressured to fly a club plane back to the original airport even though the reason I diverted was due to Tennessee thunderstorms. The entire week was a crap show for weather and every day I got a call 'people want to rent'. I told them where the plane was and they could go get it and fly in gusts/thunderstorms/rain. I offered to drive them to the other airport so they wouldn't have a car parked at a remote field. I finally called the safety officer and at the next scheduled meeting I raised heck.

Never again.
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Let me clarify, they weren't forced out, the club VP called them and said they should consider selling their share because they haven't flown in over a year and are not attending any club meetings. I shortened the post so it wasn't too long. While it was voluntary, it was strongly suggested.
 
TommyG said:
At least this sounds like a legit flying club, so you should be good. Seems there are a lot of flight schools advertising themselves as clubs. If anyone can just walk in off the street and start taking lessons, they are not a “club” you want to be part of. Renters can careless about the planes, they will use and abuse because they have no investment in the plane except getting their hours.
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I have 35 hours in 7 different tail number because of a combination of COVID shutting down one flight school and Mx issues. The planes at my current flight school are definitely used hard. The availability is also a challenge.

This club won't take anyone off the street. They want to interview you and make sure you have the same safety mindset that will align with the clubs culture.

They are well funded, too. They have $130,000 in reserve.
 
midlifeflyer said:
For just one, I have heard of insurance underwriters having target member to aircraft ratios.
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My experience is up to 20:1 doesn’t change the rate. We have 15 members and about 1/2 fly. At least 5 of them own their own planes or shares in another one so the Archer is a backup or if they need it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
For just one, I have heard of insurance underwriters having target member to aircraft ratios.
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How does that affect the liability? I would assume for a club that rented hours is more of a concern that 100 people that just pay dues. The currency rules of the FARs and insurance would also be a driver for premiums.

As for my experience it is what it is. I've been in three clubs and two were ok one was not. I've noticed that many people will not talk about negative experience for whatever reason... even on forums if someone has a wicked bad experience they will explain it but almost never tell exactly who/what the problem was with.

From what I can figure clubs don't benefit the average 20 hour a year PPL. Its not until you're in the 50+ hour/yr range or chasing certs or 1500hrs where they can be a benefit. Maybe even people who live in metro areas where even if they could buy a plane hangar space etc is a serious impediment.
 
pfarber said:
How does that affect the liability? I would assume for a club that rented hours is more of a concern that 100 people that just pay dues. The currency rules of the FARs and insurance would also be a driver for premiums….
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I can only speak for our club policy with Avemco. Current premium is 6% of hull for an average 6-10 pilots per plane and 6.5% for 11-20. 21+ I didn’t inquire about as our bylaws limit us to 19 owners/members.

We currently have 1 plane and 12 pilots; when we were quoted for a second plane we bid on, the quote reflected the new hull at 6% and the existing hull prorated to 6% for the remainder of the policy.

At some point, Avemco says pilot headcount turns into a school policy which I haven’t and don’t intend to ask about. Two limitations of our club policy is every member must be able to operate as PIC and no primary instruction can be provided. This effectively requires any owner to hold a private or higher certificate.
 
Was in a club/rental until the plane was totaled. Great way to fly. Take the risk out of owning and have an engine go down prematurely.
You can always move up to ownership later.
 
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With over 50 years in the same flying club, and a short time in another very good club, there are good reasons for most rules in an equity club.

Minimum hours per year keeps pilots proficient.
Hours flown is sent to the insurance carrier annually, and they set rate for the risk they see.
We had one member who never flew PIC, but did ride with others, he was an accountant and our treasurer. When we took him off the insurance, our rates went down.
The engine fund comes from the hourly rate, engines last longer if regularly flown.
We eased out several members for perceived poor skills. Two mandatory check rides with the FAA for one member was enough for us.

When I went out of medical, I requested emeritus status, so my membership could be sold to an active flyer, to keep airplane use up, and remove me from the insurance. Many years later, I am still a member in good standing, pay no dues, and may only fly with other members who are pilot in command.

There are a lot of reasons that strange seeming rules are in equity clubs are there.
 
pfarber said:
Why kick out dues paying members? If they are trying to hold a strict ratio that's a dumb way to run a club. More members = more cash for upgrades and another plane. Availability should matter more than a set ratio.

They allow student pilots but the students never fly? That goes against the 'kick out inactive members' part.

Also without specifics, its either a ok or bad deal. Hangars? AnP/IA available? Overnight rules? Checkout/hour requirements? Are the planes IFR? Grass strips ok? So many questions, not many answers.

$2500 buy in is a hard no for me and no, I don't want to wait to sell my share.

One post said that you need to fly once every 30 days or you need a new checkout? That's even a more ridiculous stipulation.

My past experience with clubs has been bad. I was heavily pressured to fly a club plane back to the original airport even though the reason I diverted was due to Tennessee thunderstorms. The entire week was a crap show for weather and every day I got a call 'people want to rent'. I told them where the plane was and they could go get it and fly in gusts/thunderstorms/rain. I offered to drive them to the other airport so they wouldn't have a car parked at a remote field. I finally called the safety officer and at the next scheduled meeting I raised heck.

Never again.
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I believe some “club” insurance specifies a maximum number of members per airplane (something like 12 IIRC).
If they have a waiting list it makes sense to ask non-flying members to leave.

The $2500 buy-in depends on how it works. Our local club will just by it back (refund) at 75% value when you leave.
The also bill for 1 hour per month whether you use it or not. They do allow you to care over about 2 months for winter weather.

Brian
 
Tony R said:
I think I found a great flight club. They are 2 miles from my office. Planes availability is great. $2500 equity buy in, $133 per month and the Hobbs is about $128 for a Cherokee 180hp ifr and $116 for a 172 with a new engine. They allow student pilots, but I guess the students never fly. They kicked a couple out who haven't logged time in over a year.

I was about to buy a plane but the insurance quotes were silly for a student like me, nearly $5,000 for the first year. I found this club. I meet with the membership on Thursday. Can't wait.

Clubs seem like the most economical we to fly. So many men but few actually fly.
Click to expand...
Flying clubs can be a good deal for the members who fly a lot and a bad deal for the members who fly little. The average flying club member flys 2 hours a month. This means most members fly zero.
 
Yeah, it is subsided flying for the active pilots. I guess it is like buying a option for inactive pilots.
 
I've had a not so great experience lately, at 400+ hours total time: took a club 172 out on a very windy, gusty day, with lots of turbulence. (Didn't break the airplane - but maybe abused the tires some.) One of the club 'board members' decided that I shouldn't have been flying in that weather. I'm now 'suspended', pending something or other - but am not sure exactly what that 'something' will be (still waiting to find out). I'd leave, if there was another option I could afford - but I'm limited financially. This has left a 'very bad taste', and killed my enthusiasm for the club.
 
40YearDream said:
One of the club 'board members' decided that I shouldn't have been flying in that weather. I'm now 'suspended', pending something or other - but am not sure exactly what that 'something' will be (still waiting to find out).
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I'm guessing the club 'board member' also sits on an HOA board. Similar mindset.
 
40YearDream said:
I'm now 'suspended', pending something or other - but am not sure exactly what that 'something' will be (still waiting to find out). I'd leave, if there was another option I could afford - but I'm limited financially. This has left a 'very bad taste', and killed my enthusiasm for the club.
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And therein lies a challenge with clubs. I’ve been in one like that where the old hands felt like us new guys were given the privilege of flying “ their” airplanes. It drove me out of that club and into another club that was much more user friendly.
 
40YearDream said:
I've had a not so great experience lately, at 400+ hours total time: took a club 172 out on a very windy, gusty day, with lots of turbulence. (Didn't break the airplane - but maybe abused the tires some.) One of the club 'board members' decided that I shouldn't have been flying in that weather. I'm now 'suspended', pending something or other - but am not sure exactly what that 'something' will be (still waiting to find out). I'd leave, if there was another option I could afford - but I'm limited financially. This has left a 'very bad taste', and killed my enthusiasm for the club.
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Yeah, sometimes flying club Board Members get the Napoleon complex. I can see how they'd have a legitimate concern if you did something bad to the plane. Did you abuse it, run it without oil, leave a mess in the cockpit? Were you near death, created a certainty of destroying the aircraft and all underneath it? Doesn't sound like it.

A club board is not a FISDO, a board member is not a DPE or administrative judge, and a flying club is not the FAA that gets to pass judgment on your flying. The only one anointing them with such self aggrandizement is themselves.

You now know the true nature of who is running the club. Treat it like a rental agency; nothing to be gained by volunteering work, attending meetings, etc. Some day you might find another rental option or maybe get your own aircraft.
 
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This club allows student pilots, which I am. The planes are very well maintained and half the cost of the rental school clapped out planes. They have been very inviting and nice. I think I found a good club. Once I get my certificate and some hours I will buy my own plane.
 
Sounds like a great club and a good plan. I’d even suggest sticking with the club through your IFR before you buy your own plane.
 
40YearDream said:
I've had a not so great experience lately, at 400+ hours total time: took a club 172 out on a very windy, gusty day, with lots of turbulence. (Didn't break the airplane - but maybe abused the tires some.) One of the club 'board members' decided that I shouldn't have been flying in that weather. I'm now 'suspended', pending something or other - but am not sure exactly what that 'something' will be (still waiting to find out). I'd leave, if there was another option I could afford - but I'm limited financially. This has left a 'very bad taste', and killed my enthusiasm for the club.
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I would expect the club to have some written rules that spell out the authority of "board members" and whether they can override the decision of a pilot in command. Otherwise, there should be no issue.
 
wellknow said:
U should see the puffed up fools in the local cirrus club
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I have a mental image of a Harley like club. Lots of official clothing and swag, and very little riding/flying.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I would expect the club to have some written rules that spell out the authority of "board members" and whether they can override the decision of a pilot in command. Otherwise, there should be no issue.
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And something in writing that details the weather they feel is unacceptable to fly "their" airplanes in.
If it's up to anyone's opinion there's going to be problems.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Clubs can be a great way to fly. If you are lucky enough to find a good one, jump on it.
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FleetWire said:
clubs are def the way to go.
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I love the idea of a club.... but that's such a conditional thing obviously. And finding a good one is hurdle number one.

It's been just a about a week past 34 years since I earned my PPL. That's a lot of time of looking for clubs to come and go. I've lived in four different cities. Looking at a count of airports in what I would call an almost reasonable driving distance from where I live say within roughly a 30-minute drive that makes approx 10 different public GA airports. If I open up the range to say a 1-hour drive, it's something in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 active GA airports, and even more if you were to count private fields.

In all of that I have only found ONE (1) club, and after a careful look I was not confident that I would have great access to the planes. Too many members per plane was the primary concern. Yeah, I could probably get a plane enough to stay current and active...but not on "my terms". No flying on a whim because it's a nice day and I find myself free. and probably not much ability to actually travel overnights on weekends either. Cost was another big negative. It's run resembling a profit making business, not a club for the members

So yeah, in my experience a club is a great idea on paper... but I it seems like good ones are far and few between
 
Brad W said:
So yeah, in my experience a club is a great idea on paper... but I it seems like good ones are far and few between
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If demand is that high perhaps it's time to start one? Hassle? Oh yea, but if I didn't have the one I'm in I'd consider it.
 
we need more clubs for sure. Im a member of a large club in Denver area even though I own my own c172...

there's a guy starting up a experimental flying club at a smaller airport south. he has a part 61 school with mix of pistons and an electric LSA, but wanted a way for students to build time cheaper. He currently has an exp twin engine and I may add my experimental c172 to the club. I think the twin will cost about $125-150/hr, c172 about $65/hr wet.

exp clubs typically require it be an equity based club wherein members own fraction of the aircraft and it's non profit. A lot of advantages cost and maintenance wise with experimentals. not many out there, and they are typically small. EAA has info how to set up one, and provides help. something worth considering. Consider looking in your area for one, most are tied to an EAA chapter.
 
Pugs said:
If demand is that high perhaps it's time to start one? Hassle? Oh yea, but if I didn't have the one I'm in I'd consider it.
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I will say ‘convenient’ access is the most common complaint we face because everyone wants the 9a-noon block on Saturday morning and they want to book it at 0859 on the day of.

Our most active flyers rarely fly a weekend day and rarely do a weekend RON. They are also the ones instrument rated and current, so they increase the options when they can fly.

What we’ve found as we expand our fleet is something similar to what churches face when they’re on a capital campaign: for every 10 flyers that express an interest in purchasing a share, only 1 will act on that interest. When it comes to dropping $5K for equity ownership in two well maintained and upgraded aircraft and a reserve that can pay to OH two engines tomorrow that’s a bridge too far for them.

The flip side is we tend to get a member with long tenure.
 
I have belonged to three really good clubs over the years, and in each case it was my own decision to move away that led me to change.

That is the one drawback of a club (from my perspective) the needed pilot density. (Perhaps I should say number of like minded pilots in the vacinity. "Density of local pilots" may not be an attribute. :) )

Each of these well run clubs had a few things in common. Equity, so that everyone had skin in the game. Good financial planning. Written, disseminated, and most of all followed rules and procedures, and transparency.

They did not all have the same mission, but the procedures fit each one's visions and goals. Two offered a strong commitment to teaching, but within a well-structured framework. Two had differing levels for pilots who were in different stages.

Each one taught me significant lessons that were useful both in the air, and on the ground making my later decision to go it alone a walk in the park.
 
I think my situation is conducive to this club.i actually can't fly on weekends, because of family commitments. I will basically be flying 0700-0900 during the week. The planes are always available.
 
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