Fly to an intersection on an approach plate when cleared for the visual?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by bcool, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. bcool

    bcool Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    St Charles, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bud
    Yesterday, as I approached KSUS (Spirit of St. Louis near St. Louis) on an IFR flight plan, I was told to expect the visual to 26L. Right before being switched to the tower I was told to fly direct to EAVES and was cleared for the visual to 26L.

    I punched EAVES into my GPS and all was well, but then I tried to find it on my IFR low-level chart in Foreflight & couldn't find it. But, when I typed it in the search box a box popped up that said 'Named Intersection' and showed the Lat/Lon coordinates.

    When I got home I researched it and found that EAVES is the LOM for the ILS 26L approach. I thought that was odd the controller cleared me direct to a point on the ILS approach when I wasn't flying the ILS. It worked out OK since my GPS could find it, but what if I wasn't GPS equipped? How would I have known to look for EAVES on the ILS approach chart? Or, did they give it to me knowing I had a GPS and could easily find it?

    Always something new on every IFR flight :)
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    19,662
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    If you were on an IFR flight plan you should know and expect it. You can always ask too. As for why, either just getting you in quicker as prior traffic you may have been following is no longer a factor, or they may have needed separation between following traffic and you.
     
    KA550 likes this.
  3. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,184
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    I always load an approach into the GPS even if I know they’re doing visuals for this very reason.
     
    AggieMike88, JustinD and KA550 like this.
  4. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,740
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    For better or for worse, it’s not uncommon for ATC to use a fix from an approach plate. Even having an approach loaded might not help since you might load the one that doesn’t have the one ATC wants you to use. Best thing to do is to punch it into your GPS or EFB.
     
  5. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,293
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    "Unable. I'm not RNAV-equipped."
     
    jordane93 likes this.
  6. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    14,481
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    If you'd have asked I'd bet they'd tell you. I've been given random fixes in a clearance.

    TWR: Proceed direct EAVES.
    3FR: Where is EAVES?
    TWR: It's on the ILS 26L.

    I've had them volunteeer it. I got a clearance at KSUT once from Wilmington Approach to go to a fix which he volunteered was on FAF for the instrument approach.
     
  7. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    14,481
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    If you had an ADF you could do it. EAVES is an compass locator.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  8. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,293
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    You mean I'm supposed to actually look at the approach plate before weighing in? ;)
     
  9. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    14,481
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    POAR 123.14: Posters are required to familiarize themselves all available information including the FARs, approach plates, and legal counsel opinions on any matter before posting.
     
    MIFlyer, labbadabba and Palmpilot like this.
  10. bcool

    bcool Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    St Charles, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bud
    I guess I didn’t expect to have to reference an approach plate when I was told to expect the visual and it was VMC outside. But, if that’s normal I suppose I’ll start doing that (although I’ll doubt I’ll remember all the possible fixes on multiple plates).

    I’ll just put it into the GPS and check the plates to confirm :)
     
  11. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    4,189
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Them: proceed direct EAVES
    You: Where's that.
    Them: On the ILS 26
    You: You told me to expect the Visual. Give me a vector to turn final from.

    I agree with what's said above about just loading an approach to the runway your going to when they initiate expecting the Visual. Loading an approach is a routine thing to do and you can't load a Visual, so why not.
     
  12. Cruiser

    Cruiser Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    230
    Location:
    Ohio
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cruiser
    depends on where you were. Did you get cleared for the approach? Something is missing.......?
     
  13. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,184
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    OP said he was cleared for the visual.
     
  14. bcool

    bcool Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    St Charles, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bud
    I’m pretty sure the order was:
    1. expect the visual for 26L (I was already cleared direct to the field)
    2. proceed direct to EAVES (the ILS FAF)
    3. cleared for the visual
    after a little time between each.

    Step 2 is what threw me. Now I’ll know to watch out for instructions like this :)
     
  15. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    657
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JustinD
    in small airports you won't see this too often, but at larger airports this is pretty common. Just toss the approach in to the GPS and if you need it good to go, if you don't, enjoy the true visual! They basically want you to go to that fix and join the final there for the visual approach, clearing you for the visual just helps with their spacing.

    If you listen to the approach control on liveatc for a big airport like CLT or ATL you'll often here an instruction to turn to a heading, intercept the localizer, cleared for the visual, or fly direct x and cleared for the visual.
     
    Radar Contact likes this.
  16. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,100
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    @JustinD summed it up well. At slower uncontrolled airports I will just send you direct the airport (in a FLiB, jets usually seem to prefer going to the FAF for a stabilized straight in) and clear you for the vis when you get the field in sight. At a busier airport where you are sequencing to the final I will issue direct a fix on the instrument approach IAF or FAF depending on where you are and what I need to ensure what you are doing in order to sequence without questioning what you will do.

    While flying (I usually go IFR) I always load the approach in and easily accept any IAP fixes if given in conjunction with the visual clearance.
     
    bcool likes this.
  17. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    4,376
    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad Z
    I'll usually pull up the most likely approach based on what ATIS is telling me to expect. If you're not sure, just ask.
     
    Radar Contact likes this.
  18. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,112
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    not only that, i bet your flight manual part 1 requires it. mine does.

    bob
     
  19. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,184
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    There’s really nothing in my manual that says it which is weird. I’m going to dig a little deeper though. We load an approach in every time though even if we just load a visual with an extended centerline.
     
  20. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    19,662
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Yup we were required to have the approach loaded at ASA.
     
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    4,189
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Are there GPS's that 'load' a Visual Approach? My world is the Garmin 430. Dialing in the final approach course with the OBS is the only way I can think of to 'load' a visual, so to speak. Is that what you meant?
     
  22. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    19,662
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    We had FMS and I believe you could. Don't remember though.
     
  23. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,184
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    I was mostly talking about my work plane. We can load a visual approach from the FMS and specify how miles out we want to draw the extended centerline. In the G6 Cirrus you can do the same thing load a visual approach and specify the how many miles you want to extend the centerline. Even when I’m flying with a 430, chances are there is at least an RNAV approach into the airport. If there aren’t any approaches, I do what you do and go intto OBS mode and spin the course to runway heading.
     
  24. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,100
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    I have 530/430. You can just load the IAP (ILS or RNAV). If you load the full approach and not VTF, then if you get a clearance to go direct xxxxx with your visual approach clearance it is easy to highlight the fix and direct to it.
     
  25. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,184
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    I think he was talking about actually loading a visual approach. In the G6 Cirrus, you can pick an approach that says “Visual XX” instead of “ILS XX” or “RNAV XX.” As far as I know, the 430/530 and the 650/750 can’t do it.
     
  26. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,738
    Location:
    TX - the friendliest state
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lou
    Agreed, not unusual. But it is one of the things that they don't teach in the books or ground classes for your instrument training.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but they often use a waypoint/intersection for prevailing approach for the active rwy. If the airport has ILS, the chances are you get the FAF or IF for the ILS. If the airport has not ILS or LOC approaches, the chances are you get the IF or FAF for the RNAV approach.
    Been there before, did not understand, asked for clarification and a temporary vector, got it resolved. No brainer.

    A good rule of thumb: if in doubt, ask. :)
     
  27. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,100
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    You are correct sir.
     
  28. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,738
    Location:
    TX - the friendliest state
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lou
    Wait ... what??
    You can't just tell people that they are right. That's not the MO here on PoA!
     
  29. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    19,662
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    You used to be sheltered and wrong, but now you're wise and right.

    Better? o_O
     
  30. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,738
    Location:
    TX - the friendliest state
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lou
    Even with that, it still isn't right.
    I have a wedding band on my left ring finger. I can never be right again. Ever.
     
    jaybee likes this.
  31. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Often that's in part due to 91.129, which is also referenced for Class C & B operations in turbine airplanes.

    Most turbine pilots don't seem to be aware of that reg, though. ;)
     
  32. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    19,662
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Perhaps but in the 121 world it's known I think as it's written in company policy manuals and/or flight operations manuals. So 121 pilots should be aware of it. Should.
     
  33. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,657
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    The GTNs can do it, you need the latest version of their software.
     
    jordane93 likes this.
  34. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    4,189
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Yeah. That's what I meant. Someone had said something about loading a Visual Approach. That was confusing my prehistoric, not evolved beyond the Garminian 430 era brain.
     
    jordane93 likes this.
  35. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,041
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    No one can brief all the approaches for an airport, such as this one that has six. The OP was GPS equipped. For a visual it would be reasonable to set up the RNAV 26L, not the ILS 26L.
     
  36. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    14,481
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    I was talking about posting on POA not flying the approach (that was a joke targetted at Palmpilot's previous post).
     
  37. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    13,763
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Now offering reverse discounts.
    This.... and stuff it into FF's PROCEDURES section. And Brief the plate. Never know when ATC is gonna spring the trap like what happened to the OP.
     
  38. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    657
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JustinD
    I have yet to go to an airport that had ILS approaches that by default went to give me the RNAV instead of the ILS, or an instruction to go to an RNAV approach fix or course rather than the ILS a on a visual . if it were me, I’d always load up the ILS instead of the RNAV, unless there was a specific reason I wanted the RNAV and asked for it. Granted these days a majority of the fixes on the RNAV’s do match up with the fixes on the ILS. You’re local airport mileage may vary!
     
    mscard88 and jordane93 like this.
  39. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    657
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JustinD
    as for the whole visual approach discussion, at my previous airline and my current we would/we do always load an approach of some sort, of the airport had an ILS we would load that, if not we’d load either the visual or the RNAV, whatever was most appropriate. Or even the VOR in some south/central America cases
     
  40. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,100
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    I usually set up the RNAV as well because I prefer those to ILS. However, if the ATIS said to expect ILS or Visual 26L, I load the the ILS because it's most likely the controller will send you to the ILS FAF as opposed to the RNAV FAF. If they just have expect visual 26L and I get sent direct the ILS FAF like he was in this case, for me it's quicker to reload/activate the ILS and then direct to the marker.

    Unfortunately you should be prepared for both as different facilities have different cultures and none are wrong. For example at PWK they advertise the RNAV 16 instead of the ILS so I send people direct to the RNAV FAF if needed for spacing. At DPA (same airspace) they advertise the ILS 2L so I typically send people to the ILS FAF if needed for spacing. I know in our airspace people typically use the ILS fixes over the RNAV fixes in conjunction with the visual. For whatever it's worth = not much.