Fly In - day after reflection on idiots in pattern

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Stephen Shore, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. TopDollar

    TopDollar Filing Flight Plan

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    With the same mentality he used while handeling this situation: using all available resources to his advantage to maintain situational awareness.
     
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  2. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Somehow I managed. But I seem to remember pilots being a little more professional 35 years ago. I seem to see people running red lights all the time now too. Maybe I am becoming an crochety old man. I will give you that possibility.
     
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  3. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    So when you overfly the field, put your back to the field, lose sight of the runway, how do you know that a couple airplanes without radios aren't now in the pattern? If you're on the "wrong" side of the field, why not fly an upwind/crosswind (not at midfield) ==> downwind ==> base ==> final and maintain situational awareness the entire time? Without an answer of "because that's what I was taught" why is overflying and losing all situational awareness better than maintaining it and keeping a visual on everything?
     
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  4. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    It may be insane and idiotic, but it's the entry that FAA has been pushing for decades. So it's also insane and idiotic to not expect to see pilots using it.

    Being able to figure this stuff out on the fly is all part of flying at non-towered fields. Pilots who spend most of their time being told what to do are often quite uncomfortable with it.
     
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  5. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Pattern Altitude

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    My old 172 (STOL & 180 conv) could probably do it. I was always impressed with the climb capability of that little aircraft.
     
  6. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

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    And 30+ years later, he’s still a captain. One of life’s mysteries.
     
  7. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Not true without proof.
     
  8. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    What a bizarre statement.
     
  9. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Pattern Altitude

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    What does Alexander Wolfe say about pattern entries?
     
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  10. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I just about spit food all over my monitor.
     
  11. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    FTFY:

    Not true without proof.​
     
  12. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    So the FAA hasn't suggested the 45 over other entries for decades?
     
  13. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    This group...
    Traffic patterns = "FAA REGS SAY YOU MUST DO X"
    Any other topic = "FAA IS FULL OF IDIOTS"
     
  14. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That's OK, because the recommended right 270 entry is contrary to the regulations anyhow...

    91.126 operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport
    (b) When approaching to land at an airport
    (1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left

    You pretty much have to make a right from the 45, but there is no excuse for not making a left 270 to get onto the 45. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  15. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    So I guess the airplanes entering on the 45 have the right of way over aircraft on downwind. I guess if we are on downwind we are to give way to aircraft on the 45? Would that be a fair assessment?

    Which way do you turn to avoid? To the right (behind) like one regulation says 91.113, or to the left like another regulation says 91.126?
     
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  16. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Actually the FAA in their Advisory Circular AC90-66B advises for the aircraft ON the 45 entry to yield to traffic already on downwind. I can see, however, where this would be confusing as the rule for normal CONVERGING traffic is always to yield to the traffic to the right when two airplanes are converging. BUT....in paragraph 11.11, the Advisory states that normal right of way rules per 91.113 DO apply even in the traffic pattern. So...according to the diagram of the 45 degree entry, "normal" right of way rules to NOT apply, but as stated in paragraph 11.11 normal right of way rules DO apply in the traffic pattern.

    I assume that the FAA waives the right of way rules as specified in 91.113 ONLY for 45 degree downwind entries and sticks to 91.113 for anywhere else in the pattern. But who knows if MY interpretation is correct?!

    But this shows another reason why you need to be very careful when on downwind and another plane is coming in on a 45 - they definitely may believe that the plane on downwind needs to yield to them.

    Bottom line in my opinion - only use the 45 or alternate method of downwind entry when there are no airplanes in the pattern or maybe one airplane on base or final. It just is not a smart entry method to use in a heavily congested non-towered traffic pattern. There could be several airplanes with different opinions of who has the right of way. Not a good situation.

    Confusing as heck.
     
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  17. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I swear there is always someone on the wrong frequency or stuck mic blocking it entirely.
     
  18. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    And that's exactly why I have an issue with the 45 entry with traffic already in the pattern.
     
  19. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    What a cluster. So essentially because everybody was doing something non-standard, one person couldn't make a standard, recommended entry? God I love towered fields. That actually sounds like a generally dangerous situation. I would've just left. Had a friend almost get t-boned on final at fly-in a few weeks ago. Not worth the risk IMHO.
     
  20. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    The entire traffic picture that has ADSB-out, you mean. You don't get the entire traffic picture with ADSB.
     
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  21. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Coulda been a class E field. Just sayin'. And the FAA-recommended 45 entry to the downwind requires a right turn.
     
  22. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    That's not what was said. You said:

    Lindberg then said:

    So I said:

    Putting your back to traffic is a 270° "teardrop" entry and has not been "pushed by the FAA for decades."
     
  23. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Except that in a low-wing you wouldn't be able to see anyone on the downwind or approaching it from the other side.
     
  24. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    By turning around to face the airport and making an angled entry into the pattern with a few miles of lead time to give you plenty of opportunity to take a full and complete view of the entire pattern-side of the airfield.

    You just won't give up, will you?
     
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  25. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    91.126 says left turns unless otherwise marked. The overfly and set up on the downwind to the 45 suggests right turns in direct violation of 91.126. The entry on downwind from 45 is also right turn. FAA has basically been saying violate the regulations for decades.
     
  26. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Why is there traffic in the pattern that hasn't made a 45-degree entry to the downwind as recommended?
     
  27. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    (a) Unless otherwise required by part 93 of this chapter or unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class E airspace area, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class E airspace area must comply with the requirements of §91.126.

    Perhaps reading the regs would help curb the appearance of committing acts of dumbassery.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  28. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Pattern work, go around, pick one.
     
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  29. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Except now you lost sight of the cub doing pattern work that just took off. Would have seen him the whole time if you entered an upwind.
     
  30. GLDP

    GLDP Filing Flight Plan

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    You wouldn’t need to see anyone approaching from the other side if the 45 degree entry wasn’t a thing. See where the issue is? You have three lines of planes potentially converging in one spot - midfield downwind. In Canada if you are approaching from the circuit downwind or active side you’d fly overhead above pattern height by 500ft descend on the upwind of dead side of the circuit turn around and cross back over midfield and join downwind at circuit height. I still think it’s a safer entry. Planes on downwind can see you easily while they are looking at traffic in the downwind and on base and final. They can also possibly see your landing lights or strobes as they are in front and to the side.
     
  31. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Exactly. And also approaching the field from the opposite direction of the active - in other words enter on a long downwind.
     
  32. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    The rules under 91.126 are circular, but pilots have loved rectangular patterns for eons. So, the FAA has simply decided not to "consider" the turn from circular to rectangular a violation. Midfield is the optimum entry spot to minimize the chance of aircraft merging at different altitudes (even though the drawing in the AIM is incorrect and has been for, well, decades now), so I don't get the angst here. Personally, I favor midfield entries on a 45 at either the downwind or upwind legs or a straight-in at sleepy airports while maintaining a good lookout and as slow a speed as possible. That base leg traffic can show up quick from behind a windshield post.
     
  33. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    So, what's your answer to my calm wind scenario:

    https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-idiots-in-pattern.121859/page-3#post-2808385
     
  34. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think that people tend to overlook the note that says "Yield to the preferred 45° and downwind traffic" in the depiction of the alternate entry.
     
  35. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  36. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes. Obviously. I think I stated in an earlier post that you use your eyes, ADSB In, and ATC (IFR flight plan or VFR flight following). Even when under ATC control, your primary responsibility is visual separation. ADSB is not different. But it is a great way to gain situational awareness that otherwise is not possible. And over the past few months as we get closer to January 1, it is getting more relevant.
     
  37. GLDP

    GLDP Filing Flight Plan

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    Are you suggesting that there could be a mid-air conflict with two planes converging the same exact time? If so, the same exact thing could happen if they are both planning to cross 500ft above to go do a 45. This really isn’t an issue up here. Many of the busier non towered airports have a CFS statement that makes one side of the runway a right downwind. That way there is always a circuit side and dead side. It makes it so much easier with no conflict because you all join midfield at circuit height from one direction. Planes in the downwind have their eyes always on the field and expect traffic entering at a certain place. Less busy airports with no direction, maybe it’s an issue but two licensed pilots should be able to figure it out between themselves.
     
  38. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Cleared for Takeoff

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  39. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If I understand it correctly, the Canadians have the advantage of one consistent set of procedures that apply in their country, instead of the two conflicting procedures shown in the FAA's figures shown above.
     
  40. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It was just such a fly-in at KHYI that made me very, very glad I sprung for the TIS transponder and made me a big advocate for ADSB. These days I avoid those kinds of fly-ins as there are simply too many folks that don't care about standard procedures or using the radio.