Fly-By-Wire Aircraft could be Die-By-Wire

If an evil doer has physical access to an airplane then there are limitless ways he can sabotage it.

Unless you use your FMS or FADEC to download porn it's next to impossible for someone without physical access to alter the software in those systems.

But of course, that wouldn't sell books.
 
You've just been pitched a recently released, now available at Amazon, fiction whose subplot includes a terrorist crashing planes by screwing with FBW controls. As fiction, it might work but I find it hard to believe that someone could sufficiently confuse today's modern GPS systems.
I'd check the OP's registration (Lew, is that you?!?). Sounds more like marketing than reality.
 
silver-eagle said:
You've just been pitched a recently released, now available at Amazon, fiction whose subplot includes a terrorist crashing planes by screwing with FBW controls. As fiction, it might work but I find it hard to believe that someone could sufficiently confuse today's modern GPS systems.
I'd check the OP's registration (Lew, is that you?!?). Sounds more like marketing than reality.
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GPS is a very small part of FBW. There are several systems backing each other up on several different levels.

I agree, just sensationalism to sell a book (gee! Can't wait for the movie!)
 
RotorAndWing said:
See above. My comment was directed at this inane notion that Airbus and Boeing (and their subcontractors) haven't considered all aspects of FBW architecture and function.
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I wasn't trying to make a point about that, just correcting the record on Y2K.
 
Palmpilot said:
I wasn't trying to make a point about that, just correcting the record on Y2K.
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Y2K was a real problem. From preprinted checks that had the 19 already in the DATE field to system software (on all types of hardware) that could not account to either a 4 digit year or the 21st century in general. While I think there were a lot of companies that acted like ambulance chasing lawyers, I know it was a real problem as I lived through the research and testing MY company did at the time.
Lots of money was spent to identify and correct the problem and I am quite sure many got really rich off the whole scare, but I am sure glad it was, in the end, resolved without major systems failures.
This book seems to highlight one persons belief that the data systems we have can be hacked as easily as Tim MCGee into supersecret CIA and FBI databases whenever Gibbs wants him to. We all know that just because you can see a site does not make it a hackable site unless there is some flaw in the security system the hacker can exploit. Writing your userid and password down on a piece of paper attached to your device might just be the flaw.
I don't see this happening with the GPS network. The problem then becomes, much like they are looking at the recent TARGET exposure, an inside job. The same is true for a flight computer.
 
I don't think anyone would bother hacking the GPS network. All you'd have to do is get some bad data into the airplane. Rather than messing with the GPS constellation to tell the plane it's somewhere it's not, you'd just tell the airplane it needs to be somewhere slightly different than it needs to be. Plenty of places where moving a GPS FAC a couple miles to the side would make a big splat...

The thing that'd catch that is a ground-based navaid - Much harder to move an ILS approach, I think! - And ATC paying attention on radar. But, if ADS-B takes over, it'd be possible for the plane to fake its own position. Again, more difficult, but probably not impossible.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think anyone would bother hacking the GPS network. All you'd have to do is get some bad data into the airplane. Rather than messing with the GPS constellation to tell the plane it's somewhere it's not, you'd just tell the airplane it needs to be somewhere slightly different than it needs to be. Plenty of places where moving a GPS FAC a couple miles to the side would make a big splat...

The thing that'd catch that is a ground-based navaid - Much harder to move an ILS approach, I think! - And ATC paying attention on radar. But, if ADS-B takes over, it'd be possible for the plane to fake its own position. Again, more difficult, but probably not impossible.
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I really don't like using wikipedia as a source, but here is a condensed version of modern day FMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system

Position determination

Once in flight, a principal task of the FMS is to determine the aircraft's position and the accuracy of that position. Simple FMS use a single sensor, generally GPS in order to determine position. But modern FMS use as many sensors as they can, such as VORs, in order to determine and validate their exact position. Some FMS use a Kalman filter to integrate the positions from the various sensors into a single position. Common sensors include:

  • Airline quality GPS receivers act as the primary sensor as they have the highest accuracy and integrity.
  • Radio aids designed for aircraft navigation act as the second highest quality sensors. These include;
    • Scanning DME (distance measuring equipment) that check the distances from five different DME stations simultaneously in order to determine one position every 10 seconds or so.[2]
    • VORs (VHF omnidirectional radio range) that supply a bearing. With two VOR stations the aircraft position can be determined, but the accuracy is limited.
  • Inertial reference systems (IRS) use ring laser gyros and accelerometers in order to calculate the aircraft position. They are highly accurate and independent of outside sources. Airliners use the weighted average of three independent IRS to determine the “triple mixed IRS” position.
The FMS constantly crosschecks the various sensors and determines a single aircraft position and accuracy. The accuracy is described as the Actual Navigation Performance (ANP) a circle that the aircraft can be anywhere within measured as the diameter in nautical miles. Modern airspace has a set required navigation performance (RNP). The aircraft must have its ANP less than its RNP in order to operate in certain high-level airspace.
 
brien23 said:
Today's modern fly-by-wire could be Die-by-wire, by a clever computer hack to make them drop out of the sky. Newest book released fact based thriller. Lots of people Technicians working on the jets and one could infect the computer programs that control the aircraft.
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:rofl:
 
RotorAndWing said:
I really don't like using wikipedia as a source, but here is a condensed version of modern day FMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system

Position determination

Once in flight, a principal task of the FMS is to determine the aircraft's position and the accuracy of that position. Simple FMS use a single sensor, generally GPS in order to determine position. But modern FMS use as many sensors as they can, such as VORs, in order to determine and validate their exact position. Some FMS use a Kalman filter to integrate the positions from the various sensors into a single position. Common sensors include:

  • Airline quality GPS receivers act as the primary sensor as they have the highest accuracy and integrity.
  • Radio aids designed for aircraft navigation act as the second highest quality sensors. These include;
    • Scanning DME (distance measuring equipment) that check the distances from five different DME stations simultaneously in order to determine one position every 10 seconds or so.[2]
    • VORs (VHF omnidirectional radio range) that supply a bearing. With two VOR stations the aircraft position can be determined, but the accuracy is limited.
  • Inertial reference systems (IRS) use ring laser gyros and accelerometers in order to calculate the aircraft position. They are highly accurate and independent of outside sources. Airliners use the weighted average of three independent IRS to determine the “triple mixed IRS” position.
The FMS constantly crosschecks the various sensors and determines a single aircraft position and accuracy. The accuracy is described as the Actual Navigation Performance (ANP) a circle that the aircraft can be anywhere within measured as the diameter in nautical miles. Modern airspace has a set required navigation performance (RNP). The aircraft must have its ANP less than its RNP in order to operate in certain high-level airspace.
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Interesting. Kalman filters are used in AHRS as well. Sounds like us little guys are the ones still relying solely on GPS.
 
Fly by wire in my day was a fire axe next to the varicam to chop the wire bundle driving the varicam motor.

Run away varicam was the most dreaded emergency the P-2 crew could ever experience.
 
silver-eagle said:
Y2K was a real problem. From preprinted checks that had the 19 already in the DATE field......
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Dad passed away in 1987. Mom's side of the headstone has the pre-engraved 19.

She turned 100 this year. :)

I guess we'll fix it when she passes, if she ever does. For 30 years I've been saying that she'll outlive all her kids.
 
timwinters said:
Dad passed away in 1987. Mom's side of the headstone has the pre-engraved 19.

She turned 100 this year. :)

I guess we'll fix it when she passes, if she ever does. For 30 years I've been saying that she'll outlive all her kids.
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And hopefully still spry. :yes:
 
We also know that a satellite dish guy can hack into the operating system of a flying saucer and install a virus that will stop an alien invasion.
 
Probably technically possible,


Probably one of the hardest, most expensive ways to bring down an airliner though.
 
timwinters said:
Dad passed away in 1987. Mom's side of the headstone has the pre-engraved 19.



She turned 100 this year. :)



I guess we'll fix it when she passes, if she ever does. For 30 years I've been saying that she'll outlive all her kids.
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I can think if some really funny ways to re-engrave that if she has a sense of humor. ;)
 
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