Flight Plan + Alternate

[Ventucky Red]

I’ve typically handled alternates by creating a separate “new flight plan” from my destination to the alternate, saving it in the catalog, and activating it if needed. It’s been straightforward and predictable.

That said, while working with the Garmin trainers, I tried a different approach... appending the alternate after the missed approach segment in the active flight plan, loading the approach, and then flying it in the sim using D→E→E to the alternate. Once there, I activated the approach, and everything behaved exactly as expected.

Has anyone else experimented with this workflow in real-world ops? It seems clean, but I’m curious what I might be overlooking... or which number of Murphy’s Law is waiting to show up.

Needless to say, I’ll be testing this only in severe clear before even thinking about using it in actual IMC.

Thanks

 

[sourdough44]

To me ‘real world’ is having the fuel to have options at anytime during the flight. I know in training it’s often a missed approach then maybe divert to an alternate. More often it’s the destination getting adjusted as one flys along, say a storm moves over the field or the weather goes lower than one would like. Most of us have some type of a weather feed, then ATIS, ATC and the rest.

Now with Foreflight or Garmin Pilot it’s easy to check Notams on the fly. On a longer flight, seems like half the time I land at an airport I didn’t plan beforehand.

I have flown flights where I planned to land just as the weather was improving. As I close the last hour or so, if I don’t see improvements, I may land short, wait a bit. Of course everything has to be vetted against surrounding weather and suitable airports available.

As to the route to an alternate, kinda depends where you are. In a more rural area, direct when airspace & terrain allow is likely. I also think there’s a safety component to be well versed with changing plans, landing short or ‘diverting’. One should never be wedded to any one or even the original plan.

May not of answered the question precisely, but fuel is time, options.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The technique of adding an alternate airport or a waypoint to the end of the current plan is used by a good number of people. I also teach how to build a backup flight plan in the catalog. It’s the ”extra credit” item in my “GPS Tasks Pilots Dint Know How to Do” list.

I think the question of usage of either is subject to real world practicalities. If I know what my real alternate will be (I’m not talking about the “legal” alternate) and which approach I will ask for, sure. Build the whole thing in the catalog or add it to the end of the flight plan. I do that for practice sessions where I know which two or three I’m going to do in advance. And the airports are pretty close together, so the efficiency is a good thing.

But real world alternates - better weather than your destination - tend to be (a) a decision made closer to the destination and (b) far enough from the destination so the weather is better. There’s usually going to be more than enough time to add the routing piece so long as you have an answer to “say intentions” after you go missed.

To me, the real value of either method is the amount of thought you put into it. And situationally, there’s a big difference between an alternate with VFR weather and a situation where your destination has high MDAs and you alternate is a nearby Charlie with a 200’ DH.

 

[Jim_R]

I'd suggest you consider the distinction between "legal" and "smart". There are plenty of ways to file an IFR plan with a legal alternate, but not all of them are smart. Even when your alternate seems like the smartest choice at the time you file or launch, changing conditions may drive you to reconsider en route.

In "real-world ops" there are lots of options that might present themselves as being better than your filed alternate. You should be learning / practicing with all your systems to become proficient (and maintain that proficiency) in en-route replanning, including unplanned diversions both en route and destination.

I am only a recreational pilot and I don't fly in hard IMC, but there have been times when weather has encroached enough to threaten or alter my plans. The only time I have felt "committed" to my planned alternate is when coming back home, because my home base has only a single approach with relatively high minimums and circling restrictions, but 5 miles away there's a Class D with multiple approaches to 200'. It's not uncommon that clouds and winds that preclude landing at my home drome are nothingburgers right next door, and more than once I've diverted there and taken an Uber.

Away from home, though, the situation is different and much more fluid. The couple of times I've had to divert, even though my filed alternate was still a possible option, the actual situation drove me to choose other options.

The last thing you want to do is fly to an alternate that's iffy, simply because you loaded it up that way on the ramp before you took off.

 

[midlifeflyer]

In "real-world ops" there are lots of options that might present themselves as being better than your filed alternate.

Exactly the reason I said

If I know what my real alternate will be (I’m not talking about the “legal” alternate)

The legal alternate is a flight planning exercise to choose somewhere you are pretty much guaranteed to get into with enough fuel to go there and land with your reserves intact. It's subject to several rules which support that guarantee. You literally never have to go there and ATC doesn't even know what it is.

The real alternate is subject only to whether you can get there and get in. Easy example: 200' DH LPV with 700' minimums? Not usable as legal alternate; definitely where I would go. If I expect weather to be a real issue, I plan two destination alternates - legal and real.

 

[Ventucky Red]

The technique of adding an alternate airport or a waypoint to the end of the current plan is used by a good number of people. I also teach how to build a backup flight plan in the catalog. It’s the ”extra credit” item in my “GPS Tasks Pilots Dint Know How to Do” list.

Thanks... Looks like I am working in reverse on how you teach this, that is build the alternate plan, catalog it, and pull it up if needed... I am surprised that many don't know of or use this feature, especially in SoCal where getting tech route clearances is a norm..

To me ‘real world’ is having the fuel to have options at anytime during the flight. I know in training it’s often a missed approach then maybe divert to an alternate. More often it’s the destination getting adjusted as one flys along, say a storm moves over the field or the weather goes lower than one would like. Most of us have some type of a weather feed, then ATIS, ATC and the rest.

Appreciate the thoughts... In the real world, my personal (extremely conservative) minimums would not allow for this - I do this for fun, not a living, and there have been a few occasions where we packed up the Sienna Van and hit the road. My question was more focused on "programing the box" and how it will behave in this scenario.

 

[Ventucky Red]

You literally never have to go there and ATC doesn't even know what it is.

So if I put an alternate in my flight plan (Garmin Pilot), then file it, ATC does not see this, or it is there and they are not seeing it, that is not paying attention to it until it is needed?

 

[Clip4]

So if I put an alternate in my flight plan (Garmin Pilot), then file it, ATC does not see this, or it is there and they are not seeing it, that is not paying attention to it until it is needed?

The controller is relying on flight progress strips with the clearances issued, not the information filed. For you to proceed to another airport after a missed approach, the clearance is amended. You are not required to go to your filed alternate.

Since you are approaching this from a teaching standpoint point. You might want to read up on the IFR system and what happens from the time you push the file button and the time you receive the clearance. Particularly progress strips, how they are prepared, how they are used in the event of a radar outage, mandatory and non mandatory reporting points and position reporting.

 

[Jim_R]

Exactly the reason I said...

Sorry if there was any confusion--I was replying to the OP, not to you (I didn't even see your reply before I posted mine). I probably should have quoted the OP to make that explicitly clear.

 

[Ventucky Red]

The controller is relying on flight progress strips with the clearances issued, not the information filed. For you to proceed to another airport after a missed approach, the clearance is amended. You are not required to go to your filed alternate.

Since you are approaching this from a teaching standpoint point. You might want to read up on the IFR system and what happens from the time you push the file button and the time you receive the clearance. Particularly progress strips, how they are prepared, how they are used in the event of a radar outage, mandatory and non mandatory reporting points and position reporting.

Thanks for the tip... and sage advice for all of us..

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks... Looks like I am working in reverse on how you teach this, that is build the alternate plan, catalog it, and pull it up if needed... I am surprised that many don't know of or use this feature, especially in SoCal where getting tech route clearances is a norm..

It's really just a variation on that. Same process; activate as needed. I think most people think of it in the future planning/common flights sense, rather than in the alternate sense. But as an alternate, nothing wrong with building it in advance - if you are fairly certain that would be what you will do 3 hours down the line on a day with changeable weather.

Appreciate the thoughts... In the real world, my personal (extremely conservative) minimums would not allow for this - I do this for fun, not a living, and there have been a few occasions where we packed up the Sienna Van and hit the road. My question was more focused on "programing the box" and how it will behave in this scenario.

It works really well. As I mentioned, I use that method for practice sessions, particularly when it's in the clouds on an IFR flight plan. The one catch is for those using a GNS or G1000 (depending on airframe and version). The PROC key is dedicated to the active flight plan; you need to use the MENU key to load an approach into the catalog plan.I did this for my own IPC a few years ago, loading all three planning approaches into the catalog. My CFI wondered what I was doing and was amazed when I pulled up the first "alternate."

So if I put an alternate in my flight plan (Garmin Pilot), then file it, ATC does not see this, or it is there and they are not seeing it, that is not paying attention to it until it is needed?

ATC doesn't see it. Even in lost com, in order to find out what it was, a controller would have to call Flight Service or whomever actually stores your filed flight plan. As a controller said to me, "we would never do that."

One of my earliest articles for IFR Magazine was "Planning vs Flying," a discussion of the rules and practical aspects of alternate planning. Flying has been moving the old articles and making them available. Unfortunately, this one wasn't republished in full. Most of it is missing.

 

[Pinecone]

One tip I heard that I like is to pick an alternate before my destination. And make an early decision to divert.

 

[midlifeflyer]

One tip I heard that I like is to pick an alternate before my destination. And make an early decision to divert.

My wife thinks I have a record for weather diversions, but I don’t pick a specific one because the need to divert is ultimately situational. But I am definitely considering what might be available and updating the potential need along the way.

Example was a flight home with a line of thunderstorm scheduled to arrive after we landed. I could see on ADS-B the line was moving faster than predicted. Plenty of time before reaching us, but it was time to consider diversion options. That made the ultimate diversion a relaxed event rather than a rush. Our diversion call to ATC was followed by another airplane. We landed within minutes of each other and were comfortably enjoying coffee in the FBO while we watched the weather go by.

Departure alternates are given a bit more play. While neither are specifically required, considering potential departure and enroute alternates are excellent planning tasks and meet the 91.103 directive to consider “alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed”. We talked about that a bit in a Pilot Workshops IFR Mastery scenario a few years ago.

 

[Clip4]

It's really just a variation on that. Same process; activate as needed. I think most people think of it in the future planning/common flights sense, rather than in the alternate sense. But as an alternate, nothing wrong with building it in advance - if you are fairly certain that would be what you will do 3 hours down the line on a day with changeable weather.

It works really well. As I mentioned, I use that method for practice sessions, particularly when it's in the clouds on an IFR flight plan. The one catch is for those using a GNS or G1000 (depending on airframe and version). The PROC key is dedicated to the active flight plan; you need to use the MENU key to load an approach into the catalog plan.I did this for my own IPC a few years ago, loading all three planning approaches into the catalog. My CFI wondered what I was doing and was amazed when I pulled up the first "alternate."

ATC doesn't see it. Even in lost com, in order to find out what it was, a controller would have to call Flight Service or whomever actually stores your filed flight plan. As a controller said to me, "we would never do that."

One of my earliest articles for IFR Magazine was "Planning vs Flying," a discussion of the rules and practical aspects of alternate planning. Flying has been moving the old articles and making them available. Unfortunately, this one wasn't republished in full. Most of it is missing.

I question if your statement concerning calling FSS is correct with the information technology today. I suspect today FP information is electronically available in the ATC system to controllers without contacting FSS. Although I agree there is usually no reason for the controller to ever research the information.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I question if your statement concerning calling FSS is correct with the information technology today. I suspect today FP information is electronically available in the ATC system to controllers without contacting FSS. Although I agree there is usually no reason for the controller to ever research the information.

I don't know what they have. Availability of information tech doesn't necessarily mean accessibility within the confines of a TRACON or Center facility. Or desire to use it. Either way, it's an extra step that controllers say they wouldn't bother with. To a large degree it's irrelevant since it's a planning, not an operational, exercise, so there's no guarantee the pilot is going there. And in the lost com situation, if you think about it, you have several things happening that probably make it irrelevant in most real lost com scenarios.

 

[Clip4]

I don't know what they have. Availability of information tech doesn't necessarily mean accessibility within the confines of a TRACON or Center facility. Or desire to use it. Either way, it's an extra step that controllers say they wouldn't bother with. To a large degree it's irrelevant since it's a planning, not an operational, exercise, so there's no guarantee the pilot is going there. And in the lost com situation, if you think about it, you have several things happening that probably make it irrelevant in most real lost com scenarios.

The only situation might be a where is he going now after a comm loss and missed approach.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The only situation might be a where is he going now after a comm loss and missed approach.

Yeah, pretty much. But when I think of a realistic lost com scenario where it would even be a factor, I'm including such things as

• it's not an emergency (i.e. both coms blew up but the associated navs are working just fine).
• the pilot never encounters VFR contditions.
• the pilot put in a wrong frequency, delayed long enough to not be able to flip back and doesn't know how to look up a local frequency in their EFB or charts.
• the pilot decides to continue to the original destination instead of diverting along the way.
• weather conditions at the destination that require a missed.

Even then, after all,

You are not required to go to your filed alternate.

 

[Clip4]

Yeah, pretty much. But when I think of a realistic lost com scenario where it would even be a factor, I'm including such things as

• it's not an emergency (i.e. both coms blew up but the associated navs are working just fine).
• the pilot never encounters VFR contditions.
• the pilot put in a wrong frequency, delayed long enough to not be able to flip back and doesn't know how to look up a local frequency in their EFB or charts.
• the pilot decides to continue to the original destination instead of diverting along the way.
• weather conditions at the destination that require a missed.

Even then, after all,

No need for both comms to blow up, all you need is a PTT failing in closed position, although I assume you could state what you are doing.

 

[asicer]

No need for both comms to blow up, all you need is a PTT failing in closed position, although I assume you could state what you are doing.

There are workarounds for that, although I'd imagine it would be challenging to drum them up in the heat of battle.

 

[John Collins]

So if I put an alternate in my flight plan (Garmin Pilot), then file it, ATC does not see this, or it is there and they are not seeing it, that is not paying attention to it until it is needed?

The filed alternate is in the FAA computer and part of the ICAO flight plan in field 16, but it is not immediately available to the controller. If you execute a missed approach, the controller is going to ask you to "state intentions". If you respond with you plan to proceed to your alternate, expect the controller to say something like, "and where might that be?". You tell the controller what you want to do and if that involves proceeding to an alternate, you tell the controller where that is.

Also, all the information in field 19 of the filed flight plan is not transmitted to the ATC computer, so your endurance, souls on board, emergency radios, survival equipment, life jackets, dinghies, aircraft color, pilot in command and phone number are not available to ATC. If you go missing, NORDO or overdue, ATC obtains your SAR information from the outfit that filed your flight plan.

I just flew to Oshkosh and back. I planned a fuel stop about half way because I would not have adequate reserves if I filed to my final destination. The initial fuel stop weather was getting clobbered with thunderstorms as we got within about 100 NM, so I diverted to another airport along the route to Oshkosh. It would have required an approach due to a broken cloud layer. Later I diverted again to an airport further down the road that was VFR and clear of all the bad weather. I had plenty of fuel for the diversions and could have made it non stop to Oshkosh, but just wouldn't have had adequate reserves. So we landed, got fuel topped off, and had an easy flight the rest of the way.