Flight Following

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RhinoDrvr

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RhinoDrvr
So, I've got a few questions regarding flight following.

First, if I request flight following, am I obligated to inform approach of VFR climbs or descents, or deviations left and right of my course?

Second, will approach hand me off to the Class C or D tower as they do when I file IFR, or is it incumbent on the pilot to cancel flight following and switch tower at an appropriate distance from the tower and check-in VFR?

Thanks!
 
Minor/temporary deviations aren't a problem in my experience. If you are planning a permanent altitude or course change you could let them know out of courtesy. One time I was ducking under the clouds, and the controller came on to ask me my intentions on altitude, another time I was asked to confirm my course. I had been taking a bit of a non-direct route to stay clear of terrain. Bottom line, they will be expecting a constant altitude and course, so feel free to let them know if you are deviating. It's not a big deal.

When you are nearing your destination (uncontrolled airport), typically you will just notify the controller that you have the destination airport in sight and request to cancel FF. If it is a controlled field, you will want to cancel flight following so you can handle weather and the tower (or approach). There won't be a hand-off. It's your responsibility to manage it. FF knows your destination, and will be expecting the cancellation.
 
You aren't obligated to tell us outside of class B or C about maneuvering. Having said that, if you tell me you want to cruise (or fly to) X and you're climbing to Y because of, well, reasons, I'm predicating all my work on X so a heads up so I can adjust is all part of playing nice in the system.

Approach very much should hand you off to tower in the absence of some poorly written letter of agreement. If you're on FF, the frequency change is on the controller unless you're clearly NORDO. I see it rarely, but you'll occasionally see someone headed to a hopping controlled field and I've initiated a hand off. Next thing you know the pilot is squawking 1200 presumably telling the tower everything they already know.
 
woodchucker said:
Minor/temporary deviations aren't a problem in my experience. If you are planning a permanent altitude or course change you could let them know out of courtesy. One time I was ducking under the clouds, and the controller came on to ask me my intentions on altitude, another time I was asked to confirm my course. I had been taking a bit of a non-direct route to stay clear of terrain. Bottom line, they will be expecting a constant altitude and course, so feel free to let them know if you are deviating. It's not a big deal.

When you are nearing your destination (uncontrolled airport), typically you will just notify the controller that you have the destination airport in sight and request to cancel FF. If it is a controlled field, you will want to cancel flight following so you can handle weather and the tower (or approach). There won't be a hand-off. It's your responsibility to manage it. FF knows your destination, and will be expecting the cancellation.
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Not bad advice at all, but I'm guessing you fly more in center FF at the home drome? Its a great post that serves to remind me that things are different everywhere.
 
Having received too many interrogatives by not saying anything in the northeast corridor, I always give courtesy calls these days for changes I want to make. As it is, I am often told to 'advise' when checking in with a new controller. You might be given a longer leash out there in the wild wild west.

Another personal technique: on long flights, say MD to FL, I'll give the ultimate destination. Then when I pick a fuel stop along the way, I let the controller know it will be a quick one. Sometimes they'll tell you to keep the code and report back to them airborne, saving some administrative hassle.
 
I've been asked a couple of times for an ETA and/or intentions if I've done some extra manouvering under FF, but those times I was going to a class B airport, so I assume it was just to help their coordination with the destination controllers.
 
Unless I specifically cancel FF I have ALWAYS been handed off to the tower of my final destination, who was expecting me.
 
From my experience went you use flight following, and give them your destination, you are basically in the system and they will hand you of as appropriate. I did have one instructor that used flight following any time they would give it to us. Even if we were going to the practice area. He would state we were doing maneuvers and the general area we would be in, and control gave us more freedom of movement. Usually just warnings about traffic.
 
Aviation is full of overpriced goods and services.
But there are also some terrific bargains, and Flight Following (aka VFR Advisories) is definitely one of the best.
Long ago my CFII taught me to use FF whenever I fly VFR, and that's what I've been doing ever since. It's a free service which significantly enhances my own safety as well as that of others around me. "Not using FF" (when VFR) is on my list of wasted resources in aviation, along with fuel in the truck, runway behind and altitude above.
 
For Class C if you have flight following the person you are taking to is almost certainly the approach controller that you'd need to contact to get into the Class C so the transition there should be very smooth.

For Class D I've had mixed results. Sometimes they hand you off to the tower (after calling ahead to let them know you are coming in) and other times they will just dump you "squawk VFR, XYZ tower on ..." Just outside the delta and you'll need to call up on your own.

Sometimes the above with D occurs if you are near leaving the TRACON's area and they are too busy or can't be bothered to set you up in the national system and hand you off to the next TRACON... They may just dump you 30 nm from your destination. I've found NY TRACON often does this... often rarely handing off to a surrounding TRACON like Providence if your destination is just over the "border." Whereas on the return trips Providence always picks you up after departure (usually the airport sets you up on the ground) and hands you off to New York even though you're only with them for 5 minutes. I assume this difference is mostly due to workload as in the early AM or late PM NY Approach usually will pass you off, call ahead and such.

Regardless, FF is a fantastic service and I use it as often as I can.

Your mileage may vary.
 
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RhinoDrvr said:
First, if I request flight following, am I obligated to inform approach of VFR climbs or descents, or deviations left and right of my course?
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By rule, no -- unless the controller says otherwise. As noted, some controllers like you to tell them before changing altitude/course even if they didn't direct you to do so, but other controllers seem to get annoyed if you do that without request. Me? I tell them regardless, put the snippy controllers in the "someone's having a bad day" department and just move on.

Second, will approach hand me off to the Class C or D tower as they do when I file IFR, or is it incumbent on the pilot to cancel flight following and switch tower at an appropriate distance from the tower and check-in VFR?
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You don't have to do anything the controller doesn't tell you to do. The controller has several options, including coordinating the through-flight with the tower controller on the internal line and keeping you on the TRACON frequency, executing a formal hand-off and frequency change to the tower controller, or with enough lead time dropping you off to cold-call the tower yourself. My experience is that the first option is the most common and the last is least common.
 
It's nice to tell them, not required. Same as asking for a VFR "pilot nav" practice approach (as long as it stays out of Class B and out of the way of primary airport extended centerlines). It can make it all work nicer in busy airspace.

Occasionally, Approach will dump you exiting class B or C, but I've never had them do so prior to entry.
 
My theory is simple - I am asking for flight following because I want an assist with spotting traffic and someone I am already talking to in case of a problem.

If they are going to what out for me, the very least I can do in return is let them know what then heck I am doing.
 
A Super Hornet using FF? No way. :D
 
Approach_controller said:
You aren't obligated to tell us outside of class B or C about maneuvering. Having said that, if you tell me you want to cruise (or fly to) X and you're climbing to Y because of, well, reasons, I'm predicating all my work on X so a heads up so I can adjust is all part of playing nice in the system.

Approach very much should hand you off to tower in the absence of some poorly written letter of agreement. If you're on FF, the frequency change is on the controller unless you're clearly NORDO. I see it rarely, but you'll occasionally see someone headed to a hopping controlled field and I've initiated a hand off. Next thing you know the pilot is squawking 1200 presumably telling the tower everything they already know.
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What about in a Class C outer area?
 
[SIGH]...Here it is again:

AIM 4-1-15.2

"When receiving VFR radar advisory service... Pilots should also inform the controller when changing VFR cruising altitude."

Yes it says "should" and not "must"...but it it spelled out pretty clearly in the AIM to advise ATC of altitude changes while on FF. Some pilots and even controllers may not care but it is in the AIM to do so.
 
Shawn said:
[SIGH]...Here it is again:

AIM 4-1-15.2

"When receiving VFR radar advisory service... Pilots should also inform the controller when changing VFR cruising altitude."

Yes it says "should" and not "must"...but it it spelled out pretty clearly in the AIM to advise ATC of altitude changes while on FF. Some pilots and even controllers may not care but it is in the AIM to do so.
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Agree, and even without that guidance from the AIM, I'd do it as a courtesy.

The counter to this is the occasional controller who, when you advise them of an altitude or heading change, responds with an almost exasperated tone: "VFR altitude at your discretion." Most recently this weekend, on with Knoxville approach, and the dude seemed almost annoyed that I was keeping him informed of my intentions. Annoyed or not, I'm gonna keep him informed.
 
Ron Levy said:
The controller has several options, including coordinating the through-flight with the tower controller on the internal line and keeping you on the TRACON frequency, executing a formal hand-off and frequency change to the tower controller, or with enough lead time dropping you off to cold-call the tower yourself. My experience is that the first option is the most common and the last is least common.
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Your first scenario is the one that I encounter the most. I have once or twice had to check in with approach to cancel radar service when I was getting uncomfortably close to the class-d airspace with no mention of a handoff.
 
darthnomster said:
Your first scenario is the one that I encounter the most. I have once or twice had to check in with approach to cancel radar service when I was getting uncomfortably close to the class-d airspace with no mention of a handoff.
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Sometimes the controllers just get busy and forget about us. No big deal on FF but it's a pain when IFR...the lesson I've slowly learned is that I'm *always* obligated to stay ahead of the controller. No big deal on routes I've traveled but in new territory it's difficult to know where the hand-offs are if they aren't Center boundaries.
 
Sac Arrow said:
What about in a Class C outer area?
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Good question, I've never worked class C airspace. From my interpretation from skimming and old .65 just now, I'd say treat it the same as actually in class C.
 
Another reason to let ATC know is there may be a reason for you not to change.

I was flying down from LA to San Diego along the coast under FF at 6,500 and wanted to fly down low as the coast is beautiful so I let ATC know: "Approach Cessna XYZ leaving 6,500 descending 2,500."

I was quickly told, "Cessna XYZ maintain 6,500"

I was glad, too, as in the next 15 minutes around KCRQ there were a ton of planes all around the 1,500 to 3,500 altitudes, many not communicating so approach was trying to get people around that area safely.

If I wasn't on FF I would have just flown right through that hotspot. It definitely taught me the value of FF and of course listening to their advisories :)
 
Approach_controller said:
Good question, I've never worked class C airspace. From my interpretation from skimming and old .65 just now, I'd say treat it the same as actually in class C.
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In terms of advising the controller of any changes in course/altitude, I agree. However, the "Class C outer area" (which usually extends out 20nm from the center airport) is outside the Class C airspace depicted on the sectional, and isn't really Class C airspace for the purposes of the flying regulations. In that outer area, you don't have to be talking to the controller at all in order to be passing by (although it's still a really good idea to be talking to ATC anyway), especially below the top of the C-space.
 
IMHO -- Flight following is provided on a workload available basis. It is very much to my advantage to have it, so...

If it's a fairly quiet freq and I'm going to deviate from my originally stated plan, I'll call them and up and let them know.. getting around a cloud with an alt/heading change, or if I'm going to do some autopilot checks that will take me off the current track for a while.

I prefer to tell them what I'm doing instead of being asked. Hopefully that keeps their workload lower since they aren't guessing what I'm up to.

If the freq is so busy I can barely check on I'm just happy they don't cancel advisories so I stick to the previously stated intentions as long as possible.
 
I do just the opposite.

In busy airspace, I'll often need to change altitudes just to get somewhere without busting or hitting something. Then, I'm sure to tell them. I'll try not to deviate if it isn't necessary. I'll also speak up as early as is reasonable if I'm expecting a transition across a busy airport (especially Class B).

In quiet airspace, it really doesn't matter so much. I'll usually tell them, but not always, especially if I'm close to the surface (e.g., in mountains), where I'm not flying a VFR altitude and constant course anyway, or if I'm maneuvering. E.g., I'm not going to tell NorCal about every turn or altitude change in Pattern B.
 
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Ron Levy said:
In terms of advising the controller of any changes in course/altitude, I agree. However, the "Class C outer area" (which usually extends out 20nm from the center airport) is outside the Class C airspace depicted on the sectional, and isn't really Class C airspace for the purposes of the flying regulations. In that outer area, you don't have to be talking to the controller at all in order to be passing by (although it's still a really good idea to be talking to ATC anyway), especially below the top of the C-space.
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The issue though is if you are already talking to ATC, then you can expect to receive directives (vs. advisories) while in the Class C outer area, which must be followed.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The issue though is if you are already talking to ATC, then you can expect to receive directives (vs. advisories) while in the Class C outer area, which must be followed.
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That's true in any controlled airspace, and it only happens when the controller sees a serious impending problem -- in which case I can't imagine why anyone would want not to know about it. The alternative is not getting flight following at all pretty much anywhere (they don't do it in Class G, anyway, what little of that there is), which I think is seriously imprudent.
 
Thanks for all the replies! My main motivation for asking was that a few weeks back I cancelled flight following 10 miles from my class D destination, and it seemed to blow the controllers mind. I did not expect a handoff to tower and it seemed he was coordinating one. Good to know for the future.

Also, McFly, we quite often RTB VFR on FF from training flights in the Rhino, but my question here was mainly for my GA flying.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's true in any controlled airspace, and it only happens when the controller sees a serious impending problem -- in which case I can't imagine why anyone would want not to know about it. The alternative is not getting flight following at all pretty much anywhere (they don't do it in Class G, anyway, what little of that there is), which I think is seriously imprudent.
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I just bring it up because it is the opinion of one of our controller friends that controllers should not be giving directives outside of positive control airspace. That said, I'm sure I've gotten "Arrow 3SA, immediate left turn 30 degrees" vs. "Arrow 3SA, recommend that you turn left 30 degrees at your earliest convenience in order to avoid a horrible flaming death" on flight following before.
 
I thought they were supposed to give you a climb or descent to minimize your cross section for a real close pass. I did get a "climb 500 feet NOW" from NorCal once on the way to SAC, with nearly opposite direction FAST traffic coming at me (the course from SUNOL to SAC is real close to 360).
 
Sac Arrow said:
I just bring it up because it is the opinion of one of our controller friends that controllers should not be giving directives outside of positive control airspace.
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Since neither the inner nor outer areas of Class C airspace are "positive control airspace", I don't see the relevance of your controller friend's statement is to the question of accepting radar flight following in E-space versus the outer C-space area. In any event, even outside "positive control airspace" (which basically means A/B-space only), controllers often do give "instructions" (what I assume you meant by "directives" in your post) which are mandatory to VFR aircraft in C/D/E-airspace rather just than requests/recommendations which are optional when they see what you called "flaming death" as a possible outcome to a situation they see developing on their scopes. And it's probably a good thing that they do.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Since neither the inner nor outer areas of Class C airspace are "positive control airspace", I don't see the relevance of your controller friend's statement is to the question of accepting radar flight following in E-space versus the outer C-space area. In any event, even outside "positive control airspace" (which basically means A/B-space only), controllers often do give "instructions" (what I assume you meant by "directives" in your post) which are mandatory to VFR aircraft in C/D/E-airspace rather just than requests/recommendations which are optional when they see what you called "flaming death" as a possible outcome to a situation they see developing on their scopes. And it's probably a good thing that they do.
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Wait a second, since when can ATC instruct a VFR pilot in class E?
 
mkosmo said:
Wait a second, since when can ATC instruct a VFR pilot in class E?
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Anytime you are in communication with them.

You can always cancel ff, but if they issue an instruction you are required to follow it unless you are exercising your emergency authority as PIC to act otherwise (but you better be prepared to defend that action)
 
Tflhndn said:
Anytime you are in communication with them.

You can always cancel ff, but if they issue an instruction you are required to follow it unless you are exercising your emergency authority as PIC to act otherwise (but you better be prepared to defend that action)
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You might want to check that. ATC cannot compel you or me to comply outside of B or C in this context. They may forget the word suggest in Echo every now and then when relaying a time sensitive message, but if you decline the suggestion, they can't do anything. Here's a older but still relevant article worth a read: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/crosscountry/articles/2931.html
 
Shawn said:
Oh yes they can!..."Cessna XYZ, Radar services terminated, squawk VFR"

Good read on the above link.
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That's also them doing nothing in return, but a bit petty ;) You won't get a number, your certificate isn't on the line. No FAA policemen in funny hats and reflective vests will show up at you destination field and take away your babies and airplane.

That's their prerogative for a best-effort and resources available service same as yours to decline the suggestion.
 
Just a heads up. Just because you are talking to approach doesn't mean you can enter an underlying class D. Class C you will typically be handed off to since that is a controller but class d, even under a class C not so much. I was flying into Double Eagle (KAEG) once and Albuquerque approach (Not CENTER) told me to squawk vfr and contact tower after I was a good half mile into the class D airspace on the localizer.... The Double Eagle tower was pretty ****ed off with me about it. I told them I was talking to ABQ appr and that they dumped me after I entered the airspace and they weren't having it. Luckily I just got an earful
On the other side of the spectrum I cancelled IFR while on the ILS into San Jose with the intention of going to Reid-Hillview and the controller told me to stay with him, enter the class d and make a right downwind, approach handed me off while I was on base.

Two VERY different ways of operating. Never expect to be handed off and ask questions if you aren't sure.
 
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Approach_controller said:
Not bad advice at all, but I'm guessing you fly more in center FF at the home drome? Its a great post that serves to remind me that things are different everywhere.
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It's more or less how I was taught, learning within the Bravo of SLC. Mostly used APP/DEP for flights to the local training area, and for XC out of the area used FF. And coming back I always cancel before contacting approach.

Something I have zero experience with is transitions through controlled airspace while on FF. Does one need to establish communications (or clearance) on our own, or will the FF controller handle that? Personally, I would not let myself be vectored into Bravo without hearing the magic words, but I have never experienced it myself so I don't know how that works.
 
mkosmo said:
Wait a second, since when can ATC instruct a VFR pilot in class E?
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Since 14 CFR 91.123 was written a few decades ago.
Sec. 91.123

Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

...


(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
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According to the FAA Chief Counsel, that does indeed apply to VFR pilots in Class E airspace if they are in communication with ATC.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2013/karas - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
And responding "Cancel flight following" isn't an acceptable alternative to compliance once that instruction has been given. Fail to comply, and they can file a Pilot Deviation Report with the FSDO, which can lead to enforcement action against you.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Since 14 CFR 91.123 was written a few decades ago.
According to the FAA Chief Counsel, that does indeed apply to VFR pilots in Class E airspace if they are in communication with ATC.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2013/karas - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
And responding "Cancel flight following" isn't an acceptable alternative to compliance once that instruction has been given. Fail to comply, and they can file a Pilot Deviation Report with the FSDO, which can lead to enforcement action against you.
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That is such a shame of a CYA stretch by their legal office. Despite that, where's any kind of indication that cancelling would lead to enforcement? Nowhere in that letter does it say that.
 
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