Five T's and annoucements on CTAF.

[Mistake Not...]

Admitting right up front that I still suck at this, and it's probably due to that.

I'm starting to fly approaches well enough to pass, consistently enough to pass. (That is, they're correct and I can do it more often than not). But I still get, I guess, distracted easily. It's seriously ****ing me off. I can keep the needle centered (well within PTS), but I'll forget and go through an altitude. That seems to be the single biggest failure mode.

We went out this weekend, and I was nailing a GPS approach in wind and turbulence. Bouncing around a good bit, but centered up and on altitude to a non-towered airport. Then I start getting these random prods from my instructor "Let 'em know where we are, I see activity on the runway" (It was mowing).

When announcing on CTAF, I try to make a position report like "Mooney 9999A, 5 NE, RNAV 23 approach, low pass only." The distance, I try to get close, because as has been mentioned on here, VFR-only pilots may not understand where you are if you give approach fixes.

Well, I guess I'm missing something obvious, because the 430W gives you distance to next fix, but not total distance from airport. And it seriously breaks my concentration to try to add up the total distance to the runway from where I am so I can make a report. Even as a type that, it sounds like whining, but dammit... how are you supposed to do it?

Also, there's no predictable pattern to it. Instructor drills "5 Ts" and then violates it with random reports at unpredictable times with information I do not have available. Be much less intrusive if I made a report passing a fix.

Now, you might say "well, distractions are a part of instrument flying, he's just training you". I disagree. I'm based at a Class C, and have been vectored around incoming commercial stuff while doing ILS approaches. No big deal. But random call outs with calculated information at non towered airports is different. ATC never asks me my distance from the airport on an ILS.

When should CTAF reports be made on an IAP at a non towered airport?

 

[jaybee]

I would say its mostly a matter of opinion*. I would say "as needed". I would also say that 10 mile final and 5 mile final would be "normal" calls.

*edit - VFR position reports should be given in accordance with guidance from the AIM and while flying under the hood VFR position reports should** be made by the instructor

** I actually read this somewhere (Instructor Handbook maybe?) but I'd be danged if I remember where...

 

[Brad Z]

You can generally figure out how far a fix is from the airport/runway, so I just do the math, knowing that a rough estimate is OK. It's also helpful to use the "instrument bar" on ForeFlight (or whatever handy device you have) that tells your distance to the nearest airport.

 

[mjburian]

Can you modify your approach briefing to include points you'd like to make position reports on CTAF? Do that planning at a non-critical (and less overloaded) time and you'll have time to determine where each spot is from the airport. Maybe even figure out how far the FAF is from the runway and use that to help you (or just make your report then)?

 

[MAKG1]

You'll get handed to CTAF somewhere before the final approach fix. I like to call in just after passing it -- after I'm configured for landing and stabilized -- or perhaps a little earlier if there is no change. Then, you're still at least several miles out and a few thousand up (or more), and your 430 reads distance to MAP, which is often the threshold. Alternatively, you can get total distance off the flight plan or NRST page (use the CDI to maintain track).

The calls that **** me off are when I call in "5 miles east at 2000 on the VOR approach, modified straight in for 29" and some numbnuts calls and asks where the VOR approach is. I said I was 5 miles east....

This happened to me at Petaluma not long ago.

10 miles out is a lot. If you're not still talking to approach (and in my experience, I usually am), there is nothing wrong with it. But VFR, you would raise eyebrows if you reported a straight-in that far out.

 

[MAKG1]

You can generally figure out how far a fix is from the airport/runway, so I just do the math, knowing that a rough estimate is OK. It's also helpful to use the "instrument bar" on ForeFlight (or whatever handy device you have) that tells your distance to the nearest airport.

All Garmin GPSs have a NRST function that can do this math for you. On at least some 400-series (e.g. 400W -- not 430W, though; a 400 isn't quite a 430 with no radios), there is a special button for it. On G1000s, there is a softkey on the PFD.

On a 430, crank the big knob all the way right and the small knob all the way left (in that order).

 

[bobmrg]

I would say its mostly a matter of opinion*. I would say "as needed". I would also say that 10 mile final and 5 mile final would be "normal" calls.

*edit - VFR position reports should be given in accordance with guidance from the AIM and while flying under the hood VFR position reports should** be made by the instructor

** I actually read this somewhere (Instructor Handbook maybe?) but I'd be danged if I remember where...

Advisory Circular 90-42F covers communications at non-towered airports.

Bob Gardner

 

[jaybee]

But VFR, you would raise eyebrows if you reported a straight-in that far out.

Why would that raise eyebrows ?

From the correctly referenced AC by Bob -

10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the following practices will help reduce frequency congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions, help identify the location of aircraft in the traffic pattern, and enhance safety of flight:
(1) Select the correct CTAF frequency.
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft identification, location relative to the airport, and whether landing or overflight. Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.

OP, this is what AC90-42F says for practice approaches -

d. Practice Approaches -
Pilots conducting practice instrument approaches should be particularly alert for other aircraft that may be departing in the opposite direction. When conducting any practice approach, regardless of its direction relative to other airport operations, pilots should make announcements on the CTAF as follows:
(1) when departing the final approach fix, inbound;
(2) when established on the final approach segment or immediately upon being released by ATC;
(3) upon completion or termination of the approach; and
(4) upon executing the missed approach procedure.

 

[Brad Z]

All Garmin GPSs have a NRST function that can do this math for you. On at least some 400-series (e.g. 400W -- not 430W, though; a 400 isn't quite a 430 with no radios), there is a special button for it. On G1000s, there is a softkey on the PFD.

On a 430, crank the big knob all the way right and the small knob all the way left (in that order).

I agree, but some folks don't feel comfortable navigating away from the map page during the approach to pull up the NRST page, especially if there's another device on board that is displaying that information.

 

[RussR]

Do it as part of your routine just past the FAF - meaning, you reduced power, configured for descent, started your timer if applicable, twisted the CDI, etc. first. Then make the call. Many, many FAFs are about 5 nm from the runway. Yes, there are some shorter and also many longer, but 5 nm is a good, normal length. So once you get configured and descending, chances are pretty good that you're 4 or 5 miles from the runway. If it's noticeably longer or shorter, that should be apparent to you as part of your approach briefing.

Every approach shows you how far from the runway each fix in the profile view is, just sometimes you have to add the numbers a bit.

But don't get wrapped around precision here. Calling a 4 mile final vs a 5 mile final vs a 6 mile final isn't a big deal - think how (un)-accurately you do it when visual and estimating by looking out the window.

 

[ARFlyer]

I typically just make your standard VFR calls with an addition saying I'm doing a practice approach. Most VFR guys won't know what or where XBEYB is in relation to the airport.

 

[Hank S]

^^^^ Yeah, that. I generally switch to Com2 and make reports around 10nm and 5nm out, and after ATC switches me over I will call on final or shirt final,if there's other traffic in the area.

Just have to look at the profile view, see how far the FAF is from the field, then how far you are from the FAF. If you have to, approximate, that's fine--nobody cares if you include the tenth of a mile, or are off by a mile. Just please include direction and distance for the VFR pilots who won't know anything about the approach, or fellow Instrument pilots who don't have that plate handy . . .

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've never done it since my EFB is set up to give me distance to destination, but can't you just change one of the user-selectable data fields on the 430 default Nav page to give that information? It would seem to be more useful than some other fields, especially for flying regularly into nontowered airports.

 

[midlifeflyer]

On the 5Ts...

Try thinking of them as a mental checklist for briefing in advance what you will do when you get to the next change point (i.e., run it for the next fix right after you cross the previous one, staying ahead of the airplane) rather than running it when you actually get there.

Making a report only when crossing a fix and never any other time is not the purpose.

Your CFI being too talkative? Some do that unintentionally, others in purpose. Without knowing which it's hard to recommend which, but the two best choices are to take PIC control and inform him you are in a sterile cockpit when he talks during an approach or a heart-to-heart discussion on the ground, or perhaps both.

 

[flyingron]

I agree with MARK, The 5T's involve what do when you hit a fix and frankly the TALK part has nothing to do with self announced traffic reports, it's to make (when necessary) the report to ATC. In fact, the AIM has a specific section on self-announcing during practice approaches:

4. Practice Approaches. Pilots conducting practice instrument approaches should be particularly alert for other aircraft that may be departing in the opposite direction. When conducting any practice approach, regardless of its direction relative to other airport operations, pilots should make announcements on the CTAF as follows:
(a) Departing the final approach fix, inbound (nonprecision approach) or departing the outer marker or fix used in lieu of the outer marker, inbound (precision approach);
(b) Established on the final approach segment or immediately upon being released by ATC;
(c) Upon completion or termination of the approach; and
(d) Upon executing the missed approach procedure.
​

 

[Ravioli]

you can (but I hope you don't) put the Distance Next and Distance Airport on the 430s. I prefer Distance Next and Next Waypoint.

So what else you got in that panel? How about setting your tablet up to show you distance to the airport? That works well.

 

[Unit74]

I typically just make your standard VFR calls with an addition saying I'm doing a practice approach. Most VFR guys won't know what or where XBEYB is in relation to the airport.

Drives me nuts.... " Gulf Stream 12AB at inbound at JOKOL RNAV 23"


Most VFR pilots are like, WTF did he just say and where the eff is that clown?

I may or may not have in the past and with traffic in the patter said, " Big Heavy, we have no idea where you are and there is traffic in closed pattern right now. We are using 05 left traffic." Usually that knocks the money out of their ears and they talk in terms VFR pilots can digest.

 

[Zeldman]

I just use my best falsetto voice..... "I am going to land now boys, out of the way please...."

And to the OP, I did the same things during IFR training. I would be on the glide slope but let the localizer slip, or be right on course but miss a step down altitude, it all comes together with practice. Knowing what you are missing will eventually become your scan.

 

[Badger]

... It's also helpful to use the "instrument bar" on ForeFlight (or whatever handy device you have) that tells your distance to the nearest airport.

I'm not familiar with the "instrument bar"...can you describe or post a screenshot? Is this the data fields that are user defined along the bottom of the map page?

 

[Brad Z]

I'm not familiar with the "instrument bar"...can you describe or post a screenshot? Is this the data fields that are user defined along the bottom of the map page?

See the bar along the bottom of the screen, attached.

 

[Rykymus]

First, I mark the distances to threshold from each waypoint on the approach plate. I also underline the waypoints at which I am going to make calls. That being said, most of the time, I end up winging it. (I use the nearest function on the 430 to get distance.) As a general practice, I make my first call as soon as I go to CTAF, regardless of how far out I am. Then, at the FAF, and any intermediate fix on the way down from the FAF. I also make the call in standard VFR fashion, adding "on the practice approach for the (name of approach and runway). That way, I've covered both VFR only and IFR pilots. I don't care if it's overkill, and I certainly don't care if someone in the pattern is annoyed by the extra calls. Every close call I've ever had has been at non-towered fields due to idiots who weren't talking on the radio enough. Just yesterday, I was about to depart from from an uncontrolled field, IFR. (Ceilings were MVFR, but there were quite a few low hanging clouds around the pattern.) Between startup, taxi, runup, and picking up my clearance, I had been on CTAF for at least 15 mins by then, calling out my movements on the ground along the way. I announced I was talking the runway, crossed the hold short, checked my left a third time, and some bozo in a 172 appeared from one of those low hanging clouds on about a 1/2 mile final. The dork never said a word on CTAF, just came plowing in. Glad I saw him at the last second.

 

[Shawn]

I'm not familiar with the "instrument bar"...can you describe or post a screenshot? Is this the data fields that are user defined along the bottom of the map page?

Yes...My first one is set to "Distance to Destination" and that is what I reference for my CTAF radio calls while on an approach. Nice and easy. As noted above, there are several ways to determine your distance, but if you can have that number right in front of you the whole time, that seem like a great example of an aid to your situational awareness!

 

[Badger]

good idea...setting one of them to distance to destination. Thanks