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barelyawake

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BarelyAwake
All,

Very close to taking my private pilot checkride. Soon after will begin the process to purchase a plane (which will likely take 6 - 8 months, given my past approach to large purchases).

My "mission" is:
- 4 people + baggage
- 900 NM
- Under 5 hours

I do understand the difficulties those criteria present for a new pilot. Discussed with my instructor and flight school owner as to how to address training needs. They are supportive that, with the proper plan and based on my demonstrated aptitude to date, I can handle it.

My inquiry to this group is related to that my situation is unlikely to be unique. How have others approached purchasing/planing/training for moving into (likely) a light twin with very low PIC hours?

I appreciate anyone who has experience to share. Thanks in advance.
 
How much in the purchase budget?

How much are you prepared to spend on care/feeding per month/yr?

Where in the country are you so that one of the well informed can be available for one on one conversations?

How frequent is this 900nm mission happening?
 
How much in the purchase budget?

- 250k+/-

How much are you prepared to spend on care/feeding per month/yr?

- My understanding is to budget $500 - $700/flight hour for an aircraft that will meet the requirements.

Where in the country are you so that one of the well informed can be available for one on one conversations?

- Houston

How frequent is this 900nm mission happening?

- Ad hoc. Other primary destinations are 500 and 700 NM. The 900 NM destination is just the farthest out. Estimate 24 trips per year, total.

To be clear, this is personal, not business. Fun for me (I do love the flying) and convenience for my family.

Thank you.
 
I had planned for the same mission, but obtained a T182T as an overall suitable aircraft that very nearly meets those criteria.
 
barelyawake said:
How much in the purchase budget?

- 250k+/-

How much are you prepared to spend on care/feeding per month/yr?

- My understanding is to budget $500 - $700/flight hour for an aircraft that will meet the requirements.

Where in the country are you so that one of the well informed can be available for one on one conversations?

- Houston

How frequent is this 900nm mission happening?

- Ad hoc. Other primary destinations are 500 and 700 NM. The 900 NM destination is just the farthest out. Estimate 24 trips per year, total.

To be clear, this is personal, not business. Fun for me (I do love the flying) and convenience for my family.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

I have a nice 310 for you that will be below your budget both purchase and operating that will meet your requirements.
 
oilburner said:
I had planned for the same mission, but obtained a T182T as an overall suitable aircraft that very nearly meets those criteria.
Click to expand...

Me too. :) Looking to eventually get into a 206 but felt this was a better first step.
 
You also might want to look into getting an instrument rating before purchasing the plane. If you're traveling 900 miles, then you are likely to run into some weather and instrument rating can help you get through marginal conditions
 
Beech Bonanza A36 or B36.
I know of a guy who has a good one for sale, PM me if interested.

Instrument Rate is good but not required for a long trip, you just have to be flexible.

If you go for the rating it would be good to do it in the plane you will be flying.
 
I think it's going to be tough to find a plane that meets those requirements that is only a four seater. It's either going to be a turbine single or a twin. But a turbine single like a Meridan or TBM 850 is a hell of a lot more than $250K.

Piston twins can be had that meet those requirements, but they are twins.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Beech Bonanza A36 or B36.
I know of a guy who has a good one for sale, PM me if interested.

Instrument Rate is good but not required for a long trip, you just have to be flexible.
Click to expand...

He said he's in Houston. IA will be real handy.
 
I forgot to address your main question.

“How have others approached purchasing/planning/training for moving into (likely) a light twin with very low PIC hours?”

For me, I worked my way up to a faster plane. I started with a Piper 140 to build time and get comfortable as a pilot while working on my instrument rating. Over several years I have traded up planes with increasing power and complexity. I am a very conservative pilot and this process worked for me.

EDIT: Typing Error
 
Last edited:
Bottom line is, there are very few, if any, single engine aircraft that can load up 4 passengers + baggage, go 900nm without stopping whilst averaging your stipulated 180kts: A pressurised P210 with aux tanks, perhaps. A Piper Matrix/Malibu maybe. A later model Bonanza with tip tanks. If you're willing to stop for fuel, the field opens up a little.

But what you really should do is get a multi rating an then just go find an Aerostar 700. It will get you there in 3,5hrs, will carry the load and go direct. But I'm biased..:yes:;)

19018_1316058029.jpg
 
Actually, in singles, a 210 may be the most likely to address your needs, especially a T210. Maybe a P210, but for some reason, I thought you gave up some useful load in exchange for the comfort. Glad to be proven wrong.

An older A36 Bonanza might fill the bill.

But, as noted, a twin is more likely to ring the bell. As Henning notes, a 310 could do it, or a Baron BE58 would be a grand choice - lots of room.

You might slide into a Malibu for that budget, but not a really nice one, and I don't think that the Matrix will be in the price range (yet).
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Are you sure it was not Houston TX?
Click to expand...

?? I'm thinkin' it was Houston...and IA will still be handy. What are you thinkin'? Maybe that Houston is VFR all the time? It ain't.
 
Clark1961 said:
?? I'm thinkin' it was Houston...and IA will still be handy. What are you thinkin'? Maybe that Houston is VFR all the time? It ain't.
Click to expand...

I thought you were saying Houston Iowa. (IA)
 
At the top end of your budget, a C421 could probably be bought for 250k and flown for around $700/hr. Pressurized, turbos, known icing.

Where is this 900nm trip going? Do you envision frequent trips over the rockies?

A FIKI 58 Beech Baron might be a good choice. This one is asking $215,000 with mid time engines, good paint and interior, FIKI, factory air conditioning, good avionics + autopilot and a weather radar.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...+Piston/1981/Beechcraft/58+Baron/1740544.html
 
New pilot: A36 Bonanza, Cessna 210, Saratoga will work for 5 people. I really hate to see anyone jump into a twin with a fresh PPL and no IR. I know people do it, but buying a turbo charged twin as a first airplane has the potential of running a guy out of aviation pretty quick. :nono::nono:
It's best to learn about $1000 surprises before getting the $5K ones. :D
 
N747JB said:
New pilot: A36 Bonanza, Cessna 210, Saratoga will work for 5 people. I really hate to see anyone jump into a twin with a fresh PPL and no IR. I know people do it, but buying a turbo charged twin as a first airplane has the potential of running a guy out of aviation pretty quick. :nono::nono:
It's best to learn about $1000 surprises before getting the $5K ones. :D
Click to expand...

I did, at 60hrs, no IR into a turbo charged twin. Had that plane for 10 years and 1200 hrs, worked out very well.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Beech Bonanza A36 or B36.
I know of a guy who has a good one for sale, PM me if interested.

Instrument Rate is good but not required for a long trip, you just have to be flexible.

If you go for the rating it would be good to do it in the plane you will be flying.
Click to expand...

From weight and balance research (not practical experience), the issue with the 6 seat piston singles is payload limits. Full fuel will not allow sufficient passengers and baggage.

182 has 500lbs available after full fuel. A 210 might work, but the comfort and baggage storage space is limited compared to the light twins.

IR is in the plans and yes, would like to get the rating in the plane I will be flying regularly.

Thanks.
 
Henning said:
I have a nice 310 for you that will be below your budget both purchase and operating that will meet your requirements.
Click to expand...

The purchasing authority has a requirement that she doesn't have to walk over a wing to get in the plane. Also, there are two Pampered Princesses (plus our wives) that may want a little more room or at least different seating layout than a 310.

Thanks.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
I forgot to address your main question.

“How have others approached purchasing/planning/training for moving into (likely) a light twin with very low PIC hours?”

For me, I worked my way up to a faster plane. I started with a Piper 140 to build time and get comfortable as a pilot while working on my instrument rating. Over several years I have traded up planes with increasing power and complexity. I am a very conservative pilot and this process worked for me.

EDIT: Typing Error
Click to expand...


Given the market and shrinking pilot base, I've wondered how difficult it is to trade up in aircraft?

Looking back, have the sale/purchase cycles had acceptable pain levels with regard to financial issues and time required to sell the planes?

Thanks.
 
stratobee said:
Bottom line is, there are very few, if any, single engine aircraft that can load up 4 passengers + baggage, go 900nm without stopping whilst averaging your stipulated 180kts: A pressurised P210 with aux tanks, perhaps. A Piper Matrix/Malibu maybe. A later model Bonanza with tip tanks. If you're willing to stop for fuel, the field opens up a little.

But what you really should do is get a multi rating an then just go find an Aerostar 700. It will get you there in 3,5hrs, will carry the load and go direct. But I'm biased..:yes:;)
Click to expand...

I love the Aerostar (from afar at least). However, have two concerns:

- Too much plane, too soon.
- Parts availability and support.

A 602P/700 sure looks like it fits the bill.
 
barelyawake said:
The purchasing authority has a requirement that she doesn't have to walk over a wing to get in the plane. Also, there are two Pampered Princesses (plus our wives) that may want a little more room or at least different seating layout than a 310.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Then your best bet is a 421B which makes it right on your budgets, has a potty, and space for the princesses to bring friends. Thing is, anything beyond a 310 and you'll have to hire a pro pilot to fly with you your first year.
 
dell30rb said:
At the top end of your budget, a C421 could probably be bought for 250k and flown for around $700/hr. Pressurized, turbos, known icing.

Where is this 900nm trip going? Do you envision frequent trips over the rockies?

A FIKI 58 Beech Baron might be a good choice. This one is asking $215,000 with mid time engines, good paint and interior, FIKI, factory air conditioning, good avionics + autopilot and a weather radar.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...+Piston/1981/Beechcraft/58+Baron/1740544.html
Click to expand...

We have close family on the other side of the Rockies and Sierras. Not anticipated to be a regularly scheduled trip, however CA, ID, NV and CO will occasional destinations. Single Engine ceiling is a selection criteria.

Also, tentatively have been adding pressurization as a requirement. P Baron with extra tanks would almost meet the requirements.

Thanks.
 
barelyawake said:
We have close family on the other side of the Rockies and Sierras. Not anticipated to be a regularly scheduled trip, however CA, ID, NV and CO will occasional destinations. Single Engine ceiling is a selection criteria.

Also, tentatively have been adding pressurization as a requirement. P Baron with extra tanks would almost meet the requirements.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

You may as well go 421 and have a cabin plane with a potty. The operating cost difference between the P-Baron and 421 is not huge, and the P-Baron has a 10,000 hr life limit. At that point it is scrap.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Beech Bonanza A36 or B36.
I know of a guy who has a good one for sale, PM me if interested.

Instrument Rate is good but not required for a long trip, you just have to be flexible.

If you go for the rating it would be good to do it in the plane you will be flying.
Click to expand...

SCCutler said:
Actually, in singles, a 210 may be the most likely to address your needs, especially a T210. Maybe a P210, but for some reason, I thought you gave up some useful load in exchange for the comfort. Glad to be proven wrong.

An older A36 Bonanza might fill the bill.

But, as noted, a twin is more likely to ring the bell. As Henning notes, a 310 could do it, or a Baron BE58 would be a grand choice - lots of room.

You might slide into a Malibu for that budget, but not a really nice one, and I don't think that the Matrix will be in the price range (yet).
Click to expand...

N747JB said:
New pilot: A36 Bonanza, Cessna 210, Saratoga will work for 5 people. I really hate to see anyone jump into a twin with a fresh PPL and no IR. I know people do it, but buying a turbo charged twin as a first airplane has the potential of running a guy out of aviation pretty quick. :nono::nono:
It's best to learn about $1000 surprises before getting the $5K ones. :D
Click to expand...

I'd be looking hard at an A36. Notice the theme?
 
To eliminate walking up the wing, you have Cessna 206-210's that may be a little cramped for your purpose or 400 series Cessnas. IF you can find a really good 421B, it will do what you want, especially if it has nacelle tanks. As Henning said you will need a pilot for at least the first year or go without insurance.;)
A word of caution, do not under any circumstances put your wife in the back off at 414/421 if you don't intend to buy one! She will NEVER be happy with anything less!!:mad2: I tried to buy a 310 after I sold my 414A and my wife was kind enough to let me know that she would NOT be riding in it, so I could get whatever I wanted. I bought a 421B. :D

barelyawake said:
The purchasing authority has a requirement that she doesn't have to walk over a wing to get in the plane. Also, there are two Pampered Princesses (plus our wives) that may want a little more room or at least different seating layout than a 310.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
Four people and baggage would easily be 800 lbs. 900 miles of fuel is another 500 lbs of fuel burned with at least 100 lb reserve necessary. This puts you into a plane that will carry at least 1400 lbs and has tankage for 100 gallons.

It is always vastly more expensive to buy an aircraft that will cover 100% of your missions, as opposed to one that will cover 90% of them.

Another reality is that unless the aircraft is comfortable, you are unlikely to get your passengers to sit there for five hours. That probably means a potty. Now you are talking Piper Navajo or Cessna 400 series.

IMX, 500 hundred miles is about as far as your passengers are going to be good for without all the above amenities. This means that you fly for three hours, stop for lunch and fuel, and fly another three hours. With that sort of a profile, now there are a whole bunch of airplanes that will fit the bill in your price range or even a lot less.
 
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