First in-flight failure

ebykowsky

ebykowsky

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TLDR: skip to paragraph 3
Had my first in-flight failure today on a just-for-fun XC to KAGS with my dad (fun for me, not as much for him :) ).--this was my first flight in a month, and my first flight over .5 hobbs in 2 months. A few minutes before getting to the airport, we get a call from the previous renter who just got back from KATL telling us to be careful about the electric system and that there's a very slow discharge from the battery as opposed to a steady charge--so, not wanting to mothball the flight, I decided to brave it and head out into the blue yonder, knowing that an electric failure isn't the end of the world (just ask a vintage Cub owner!)

Anyhow, before the flight, I shut off COM2, the GPS, and my NAV's and proceeded to KAGS--it ended up being a beautiful flight carving our way around clouds and viewing rain showers on the horizon in several directions. Interestingly, there was an A330 on the tarmac that got diverted on its way to KATL from Barcelona.

Then, about halfway back, after switching to KCAE approach, NAV1 flickers out, rapidly switching on and off... so, knowing what was going on, I switched the comms off, squawked 7600, and kept on flying the aircraft. Then, after a minute of squawking 7600, I shut off the avionics and master to save battery for the flaps. We circumnavigated the Charlie and dropped below it when we got close enough to the filed. I decided to only put in around 15deg. of flaps on final because I didn't want to be stuck with 30deg. if we had to go around and couldn't get them back up. Finally, we landed with a decent landing and taxied back and shut down... hope they get it fixed by tomorrow's flight!!!

All in all, the failure was a non-event, and I'm glad it happened so I could get that experience. Also, I would have never launched at night with knowledge of this problem; I knew it would be a more-or-less non-issue in the day.
 
So, you admit to taking an aircraft that is not charging. A known problem exists.
I would presume that you did not have a charging indication?
You discharge the battery to zero or near zero. That's not good for the battery.

If it were my plane, you would not be renting from me again and I would be charging you for the cost of a replacement battery. If it was a leaseback rental to a flight school or FBO, I would be talking to them about dispatching an aircraft that should have been grounded.

It's not a "non-issue" it's a big issue! :hairraise::yikes::hairraise::yikes::hairraise:

It was not an inflight failure, the failure was on the ground at groundspeed= zero when your brain decided to take a known issue airborne!
 
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I have to agree. Not a great idea. Especially with your father who is apparently not too fond of flying (or am I reading to much into it?). The way the previous renter handed off the aircraft to you ("keep an eye on it") makes me question his judgement as well.

Sorry to be a little harsh, but we have to take extra caution when taking non-pilots aloft. Keep their experience in mind and in fact, make it ALL ABOUT their experience.

Just my two cents.
 
Oh, and with the weather sounding a little "sketchy" what happens if you wind up in IMC and lose the vacuum? That turn and bank is relying on that electrical system you didn't think was too important. Remember, many accidents are precipitates of an accident chain where the first issue doesn't seem too serious on its face.
 
Weather was not sketchy whatsoever... clouds were around 300ft tall puffy cumulus with light to moderate rain 20-30nm at the closest... I explained the possibility of a power loss to my dad beforehand and talked it over with the FBO.
 
Launching with a known issue usually isn't a good idea, but I would be a hypocrite if I gave you an Internet ruler slap for it.

Someone I know flew a Mooney from Texas to Nebraska with an alternator that no one could figure out what was wrong with. It worked on the test stand, then "my friend" and his mechanic replaced the brushes because they were worn. Then rumor has it they put it back on the airplane and it still wouldn't charge, so they jumped the battery and then it was working.

I heard that he loaded the airplane with the mechanic sitting in the pilots seat with the engine running so it wouldn't kick off again. Then allegedly he didn't have any issues for the whole flight.

Just sayin' sometimes it's necessary sometimes it's not. My "friend" had to be back at work on Monday so it was either take the plane with a known possible (and not serious) issue or get an airline ticket and spend $1,000 to come back and pick the plane up.

He told me that the alternator worked fine the whole way.
 
ebykowsky said:
Weather was not sketchy whatsoever... clouds were around 300ft tall puffy cumulus with light to moderate rain 20-30nm at the closest... I explained the possibility of a power loss to my dad beforehand and talked it over with the FBO.
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Well, it looks like you mitigated your situation well. Reminds me of my last flight, actually. Flew up to pick up my daughter last month in an F33 Bonanza. She was to be my first passenger since my complex endorsement and Bonanza checkout.

En route to get her, I had a pressure pump failure (vacuum pump in other model a/c) No biggie as I was VFR and it was a perfect VFR day. But I faced a similar (although easier) decision in taking my daughter up as my first passenger for the return trip with a known problem. There was ZERO chance of inadvertent IFR, so we launched.

Wasn't a problem except that the HSI wouldn't keep the correct heading. It was EXTREMELY busy back at the home base and I received several vectors having to use the compass for the first time in my flying career. That was fun. Good thing I know the local area as they took me on a 10 mile downwind with several vectors.

It was still an excellent day.
 
ebykowsky said:
Then, after a minute of squawking 7600, I shut off the avionics and master to save battery for the flaps.
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:nono: Mistake. You don't need flaps to land, but if you are heavy, hot or high and you cannot get them to retract on a go-around you might end up in the trees.
 
DavidWhite said:
Launching with a known issue usually isn't a good idea, but I would be a hypocrite if I gave you an Internet ruler slap for it.

Someone I know flew a Mooney from Texas to Nebraska with an alternator that no one could figure out what was wrong with. It worked on the test stand, then "my friend" and his mechanic replaced the brushes because they were worn. Then rumor has it they put it back on the airplane and it still wouldn't charge, so they jumped the battery and then it was working.

I heard that he loaded the airplane with the mechanic sitting in the pilots seat with the engine running so it wouldn't kick off again. Then allegedly he didn't have any issues for the whole flight.

Just sayin' sometimes it's necessary sometimes it's not. My "friend" had to be back at work on Monday so it was either take the plane with a known possible (and not serious) issue or get an airline ticket and spend $1,000 to come back and pick the plane up.

He told me that the alternator worked fine the whole way.
Click to expand...

Hmm... yeah, I need to talk to my friend and tell him it's not cool to get on my account and post about his flying adventures as if he were me. Sorry he did that, guys!
 
bnt83 said:
:nono: Mistake. You don't need flaps to land, but if you are heavy, hot or high and you cannot get them to retract on a go-around you might end up in the trees.
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That's why I only put in 15deg. on landing. Pretty good climb performance with 15deg. in.
 
+1 for it not being an inflight failure.
I'll fly SE non-LIFR IFR at night, but I cancelled a 20 min local severe VFR flight due to a dead alternator standing in the run-up area by the runway, wife and daughter all packed in.
YMMV
 
I must admit my first reaction was why did you take it up knowing what you knew, but the story gave me the time to think what I would do if something similar happened to me. My plane has a G1000, and so electrical failure is a huge deal. I do these thought games with myself often enough, and hopefully will not have to test it in reality.

Anyhow, despite everything, good job, and thanks for posting it.
 
Why do people feel compelled to announce on the Internet that they knowingly flew an unairworthy aircraft? It (may or) may not be dangerous, but a functioning alternator is required equipment for flight.

When you spoke to the FBO, did a mechanic inspect the aircraft and approve it for service?
 
I have seen several posts from people on this forum who openly admit ignorance, and their inability to fly an airplane. Do not admit to taking off with inop equipment on an internet forum, come on man...
 
Bad mojo to fly DIY a crippled plane..... especially with a passenger not excited about flying to begin with. Knowingly flying a plane that is not airworthy is just plain dumb.

You officially made an error in judgement. :yes:

JMHO.
 
Inverted said:
I have seen several posts from people on this forum who openly admit ignorance, and their inability to fly an airplane. Do not admit to taking off with inop equipment on an internet forum, come on man...
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I have no dog in this fight, but I for one appreciate when people openly admit their mistakes. I learn something everyday from these forums, and maybe his posting of his mistake will help someone avoid the same mistake in the future. I think his honesty should be admired.
 
ebykowsky said:
Weather was not sketchy whatsoever... clouds were around 300ft tall puffy cumulus with light to moderate rain 20-30nm at the closest... I explained the possibility of a power loss to my dad beforehand and talked it over with the FBO.
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You talked to the FBO about it before the flight? What did they say? I assume you told them what you experienced. What did they say to that?

douglas393 said:
I have no dog in this fight, but I for one appreciate when people openly admit their mistakes. I learn something everyday from these forums, and maybe his posting of his mistake will help someone avoid the same mistake in the future. I think his honesty should be admired.
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I appreciate it as well. I think it's important that we be able to discuss things like this. Hearing about other people's experiences, good and bad, can be beneficial. That said, if it had been me, I might have posted it anonymously in lessons learned.
 
Haven't read the rest of the posts but you did not have an "in-flight" failure. You started your mission with a failure, it simply got much worse along the way. The only time I did anything remotely like this is when my starter sprag clutch munched itself about 240 miles from home. I hand propped the plane, and made the solo flight after insuring that the sprag was not interfering. Now, I regret doing even that, even though the starter was not on the MEL for that plane because it was an old plane before there were MELs.

Bad decision, lucky it didn't cost you more than it did.
 
\__[Ô]__/;1213543 said:
I appreciate it as well. I think it's important that we be able to discuss things like this. Hearing about other people's experiences, good and bad, can be beneficial. That said, if it had been me, I might have posted it anonymously in lessons learned.
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Cannot disagree with that logic, and I would probably have posted anonymously, but then again I am not as stoic as he is.
 
I'm not going to be quick to judge, I'm new here, :target: but if I see a discharge on run-up, we're taxiing right back to the ramp or shop. No go.

I think my Odyssey battery was about $400. I would prefer not to kill it ... or any souls. :redface:
 
Brad Z said:
Why do people feel compelled to announce on the Internet that they knowingly flew an unairworthy aircraft? It (may or) may not be dangerous, but a functioning alternator is required equipment for flight.
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It's not required for day VFR below FL240.

But I'd be concerned that any undiagnosed electrical problem might be something that poses a fire hazard.
 
Wow. Taking off with a known electrical issue? My FBO would have taken the plane off the line. I can think of at least 10 scenarios where this could have gone south...very south.

I posted earlier about deciding to ground a flight because the vacuum system failed on preflight. I chose to ground the plane. About 50% of the POA pilots agreed with me.

But my gosh, a known electrical charging issue? Really? I can't believe there's even anything to debate. Dude, we all make mistakes. I hope you understand this was one...a relatively serious lapse in judgment.

I think you should stop and reflect about your life and the life of your passengers before you get back in ANY plane.
 
douglas393 said:
I have no dog in this fight, but I for one appreciate when people openly admit their mistakes. I learn something everyday from these forums, and maybe his posting of his mistake will help someone avoid the same mistake in the future. I think his honesty should be admired.
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I'm not certain he thinks he made a mistake or did anything wrong.
 
acrophile said:
It's not required for day VFR below FL240.

But I'd be concerned that any undiagnosed electrical problem might be something that poses a fire hazard.
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It's required according to the type certificate data sheet.

The alternator provides juice to the battery. The battery provides juice to the anti-collision lights. Required for VFR flight below FL240.
 
Banjo33 said:
I'm not certain he thinks he made a mistake or did anything wrong.
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Agreed, sounds more like he was bragging about it...


ebykowsky said:
All in all, the failure was a non-event, and I'm glad it happened so I could get that experience. Also, I would have never launched at night with knowledge of this problem; I knew it would be a more-or-less non-issue in the day.
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...he's glad he got the experience. OK. He could do the same thing by shutting the master off if he wanted to see what it was like to fly with no electrical.
 
After all the replies, no I did not think it was nearly as much of an issue as you guys made it out to be... after talking to the first pilot and FBO it sounded like much less of an issue, but I can say I'm glad I posted so I got your opinion a bit more on the matter. My thought process was that it's simple to fly with no electric system and I had conferred with others, so it must be OK. I see a more conservative approach would be better in the future.
 
Brad Z said:
It's required according to the type certificate data sheet.

The alternator provides juice to the battery. The battery provides juice to the anti-collision lights. Required for VFR flight below FL240.
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Oh ok. That makes sense. Thanks for the correction.
 
ebykowsky said:
After all the replies, no I did not think it was nearly as much of an issue as you guys made it out to be... after talking to the first pilot and FBO it sounded like much less of an issue, but I can say I'm glad I posted so I got your opinion a bit more on the matter. My thought process was that it's simple to fly with no electric system and I had conferred with others, so it must be OK. I see a more conservative approach would be better in the future.
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:yes: and make sure to let your friend know that too.:D
Thanks for sharing !
 
I applaud you for your candor and willingness to learn from this incident. Flying is dangerous enough (statistically I have read 10 - 17 times more dangerous than driving in multiple sources). My philosophy is that no trip is worth risking my life unnecessarily.

Taking off with a plane that has known issues? "Just Say No!" :nono: Be conservative and live to tell the day.

Thanks for posting this and for listening to your fellow pilots, many of whom have faced similar situations.
 
ebykowsky said:
TLDR: skip to paragraph 3
Had my first in-flight failure today.[/QUOTE

Pre-flight failure. With 37 years and 3300 hours of experience I wouldn't have done it. I cancelled a 20 minute flight for fuel last month because of an alternator not charging. I might put a charger on the battery and then fly it solo 10 minutes to my mechanic, but that's about the limit.
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Also as far as posting on the web not anonymously, I figure if the FAA really wants to get me for something, they don't need to come here for evidence, plus I'd already told the FBO what happened so I had nothing to hide... Finally, I don't care very much if a bunch of semi-anonymous people online think I did something stupid. I actually really don't mind if you tell me I'm stupid. I post here so I can become a better pilot, and I don't really like the idea of internet anonymity... anything I wouldn't say to the world I'm not going to say on here. Thanks again for all the replies and I do realize now that I crossed a line by launching with a somewhat known issue.
 
There's not a pilot here who hasn't done something stupid...from taking off with the brakes on to leaving the tow bar on (prop strike) to just plain getting overwhelmed and acting like an idiot in flight.

Take comfort from the fact that you are here learning from the experts and sharing things that could be embarrassing.

Learn from this and move on. And thanks for posting...
 
I kinda separate this from all the Sat morning 'oops' flights that plague everyone. The OP knew in advance the plane wasn't airworthy, and he made a go decision. This is not a fault of 'oh - I forgot to latch the baggage door'(which has killed people), this is more like 'I will leave the baggage door open because the latch is broke and I want to go fly anyway'.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
There's not a pilot here who hasn't done something stupid...from taking off with the brakes on to leaving the tow bar on (prop strike) to just plain getting overwhelmed and acting like an idiot in flight.

Take comfort from the fact that you are here learning from the experts and sharing things that could be embarrassing.

Learn from this and move on. And thanks for posting...
Click to expand...

All true.
 
I did a preflight on an airplane once and noted that there was no electrical or vacuum system - due to the necessity of the flight however I pulled it out anyways, hand propped it, and flew to my destination to give rides, and hand propped it a few more times.

The plane? A 1946 Piper Cub.

Jesus Christ people, FTFA - an electrical failure in VMC is not a big deal at ALL. I frequently fly planes with no electrical system, no vacuum system, and I'm not dead yet.
 
Eybkowsky oopsed, it happens. He's 17 and if you tell me you never did something silly when you were 17 then you are a damn liar.
 
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