First annual for my 172 - need new engine!

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Hangontight, Feb 12, 2021.

  1. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,103
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    any good engine builder can build a better overhaul than lycoming. If you want new tolerances, ask for it. by the way, only a lycoming rebuilt engine will be to new factory tolerances. a overhaul will be built to "We measure against Lycoming Factory tolerances that exceed field requirements" notice they do not say "NEW" only that they exceed field tolerances. so their overhauls may be between new and field tolerances.

    my builder built my last engine to new tolerances, new cyls, and anything else I wanted for a price a whole lot less than lycoming wanted.
    just because they are the people that made it,doesn't mean that they rebuild them better.

    to the OP. please tell your A&P to put a rag under that rod or secure it as per the overhaul manual. setting the rod on the case is a good way to put a nick on it that can cause a stress riser that can lead to rod failure. this is straight from the lycoming overhaul manual.

    CAUTION
    After the removal of a cylinder and piston the connecting rod must be supported to prevent damage to the rod and crankcase. This is drone by supporting each connecting rod with torque hold down plate ST-222, rubberbands, (discarded cylinder base on seal rings) looped around the cylinder base studs or using plates as shown in figure6-2
     
  2. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,262
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    Sure, but the average aircraft maintenance shop won't have all the proper machining equipment to do that. It takes a shop full of expensive stuff.

    New tolerances will often mean more new parts, too.

    I actually paid less for those Lyc factory overhauls than for overhauls in the same major shop/dealer I bought the Lycs through.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  3. Magman

    Magman Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2020
    Messages:
    228
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Magman
    Little tip I got from one of the folks at a major engine shop.

    If you are trading your engine in ; you and your Tech may want to evaluate

    your core.

    Big shops don’t care about a new harness , mags, plugs etc.

    Much of this is just “ground up “ or trashed.

    They are generally required to do the accessories as well if they call it an

    Overhaul.

    You may want to swap those mags with 100 hrs since new for some ancient junk.

    Coils and other parts are $$$

    Ditto for plugs etc.

    Doing this just might help you with install costs.
     
  4. idahoflier

    idahoflier Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,068
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    OP: If you haven't already give, the Penn Yan Superhawk conversion a look:
    https://www.pennyanaero.com/penn-yan-aero-stcs
    https://www.pennyanaero.com/lycoming-o-320-superhawk

    From what I have seen Penn Yan has the best overhaul warranty and the overhaul/conversion of your O-320-E2D to an O-360-A4M may not be a lot more than an overhaul of your O-320. I'm a year and about 100 hrs out of an overhaul by Penn Yan of my O-360-A4M and so far I'm pleased with the results. I don't know about the superhawk quote, but the overhaul quotes are available immediately after filling in the info...
     
    belbert likes this.
  5. Hangontight

    Hangontight Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    27
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    South Paw
    I did get the Pen Yan quotes. The super hawk option is about a $14k (minimum) upgrade from what my shop quoted to overhaul my O320. It would probably increase the value some, but for my mission it’s pretty hard to justify that kinda price....
     
  6. Magman

    Magman Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2020
    Messages:
    228
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Magman
    Did PYAS quote include installation or just engine exchange?

    There are mods required that take time and $$.

    Nothing drastic but you want apples to apples.

    Always easier to stay with what you have.

    On the other hand I’ve never talked to anyone wishing they had less power.
     
  7. patrick wentworth

    patrick wentworth Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    260
    Location:
    Santa Rosa, Ca
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Patrick
    If you are going to look at Penn Yan also check AirPlanes -- I had a K with the 180 O360 and it was wonderful. Also verify which prop you use. some have 0 tolerance for damage where others can take a little off the tip on a minor ground strike --- BTDT :(
     
  8. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,262
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    Be careful with conversions. They're not all plug-and-play. I spent a lot of shop time installing an Air Plains conversion in a 180. That time is not cheap.
     
    Magman likes this.
  9. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,349
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chemgeek
    I'll bet Penn Yan can also do your HC STC during overhaul. Penn Yan did the high compression STC for me during my overhaul. They were quite familiar with my particular STC, and had no issues with complying with the paperwork. The hardest part for me was getting the paperwork from the STC owner. Turnaround was really quick, and the engine has been trouble-free. Penn Yan has provided all the replacement cylinders for my planes, and I replaced nary a one before overhaul in 35 years of ownership.
     
  10. Hangontight

    Hangontight Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    27
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    South Paw
    Holy Backlog Batman! Lycoming is out 12-14 weeks, Pen Yan is out 9-10 weeks. My shop has an exchange motor that will be ready in 3-4 weeks. Seems like everything is pushed way out right now.

    The 180 conversion is too much money for me. Plus I don’t need it for 95% of the flying I do.

    I’m going w/ a new limit rebuild from my shop w/ a RAM 160hp STC. Price, timing, and multiple other variables lead this to be the best option for my project.
     
    aterry1067 likes this.
  11. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,327
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Doesn't sound that much different than normal. Engine shops, and even Lycoming and Continental, generally don't have engines just sitting on the shelf waiting for you to call and buy them.

    Sometimes the timeframe/need is the deciding factor on what to go with.
     
  12. Magman

    Magman Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2020
    Messages:
    228
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Magman
    Is your shop an Engine O/h facility?

    Columbia is not that far from PYAS also.

    The engines I’ve seen from them were fine and they were easy to deal with.

    worth a call.
     
  13. Hangontight

    Hangontight Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    27
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    South Paw
    Yes sir. They have good reputation too.
     
  14. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,603
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WDD
    How long are you planning on keeping the plane? If a while, seriously look at the 180 conversion. If you haven't yet, go fly a superhawk and then make a more informed choice.
     
  15. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    7,743
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    706A7AC1-99BC-4869-9C4B-4BB32CAB482C.jpeg
     
  16. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    9,441
    Location:
    Lincoln NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian
    Hangontight, WDD and aterry1067 like this.
  17. Hangontight

    Hangontight Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    27
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    South Paw
    this thread is for the birds...
     
  18. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,603
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WDD
    I feel Salty had a wise response.
     
    Hangontight likes this.
  19. Hangontight

    Hangontight Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    27
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    South Paw
    Whelp, we split the cases today. Cam failure, several lobes worn way down, pitting on tappet (sp?) faces. The guys in the shop took me through each piece and part of my engine which was really cool to see.

    Also found out that my propeller is out of serviceable limits so it is junk. Will be getting a new one.

    On the plus side, my wallet will be so light when I get my airplane back that I will have much more useful load for hauling gear & friends! See, there's a silver lining to every cloud.
     
  20. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,603
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WDD
    Sorry to hear - but you gave a good attitude - will be a great plane when you get it fixed up. Pre buy inspection and oil analysis didn’t detect anything?
     
  21. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,585
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    UngaWunga
    Have your mechanic kick you in the shins so you temporarily forget the pain in your wallet.
     
    Darryl Snover and 3393RP like this.
  22. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,262
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    Did they pop the plug out of the front of the crank to check the bore for corrosion pitting?

    Cam and lifter replacement is normal for an overhaul.
     
    nrpetersen likes this.
  23. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,255
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    Just as a point of reference, the Petersen mogas STC is available for the higher-compression 160 hp O-320-D3G in my Piper Warrior II, just not for a 150 hp O-320 that was later converted to 160 hp (same compression, but probably not enough of them out there to make it worth Petersen's effort to cover them with the STC).
     
  24. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,327
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    That can be subjective depending on how the airframe STCs were written and the engine conversion was performed. Your comment illustrates the minefield that someone would be tiptoeing through to try and operate legally on car gas when there is a conversion involved though. It is something people must be aware of.
     
  25. Hangontight

    Hangontight Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    27
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    South Paw
    That will happen on Monday. Fingers crossed that it’s a serviceable crank.....we shall see. I can only take so much bad news everyday!
     
  26. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,105
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    cam/lifter replacement is par for the course for an o/h. You're not "behind" on that front.

    ETA: @Dan Thomas beat me to it.
     
    Hangontight likes this.
  27. NavAir

    NavAir Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NavAir
    I ordered a Lycoming-rebuilt IO-360 on November 13, 2020. Expected ship date was quoted as February 16, 2021. Two weeks ago, they slipped that date to March 2, 2021. If they actually ship it then, I won't get it until 16-17 weeks after the order was placed.
     
    Hangontight likes this.
  28. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,327
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Unfortunately, that seems Par for the course for the way Lycoming operates.
     
  29. Hangontight

    Hangontight Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    27
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    South Paw
  30. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    7,918
    Location:
    Somewhere else
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Guest
    I like to stop by and yack with my A&P when he has SOMEONE ELSES engine torn apart for field overhauls.

    During my annuals, when he calls, I ask if I should sit down. Usually he says "you've heard bigger numbers before" but this year he said "you might want to." Wasn't too bad though, just sending the carbonator out for overhaul.

    Nothing like what you've got going there. THAT I would definitely need to be sitting down.
     
  31. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,262
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    It was never that long when I was buying engines from them. I suspect that Covid has messed them up, just like a lot of other industries.

    Aside from that, they don't build that many engines anymore, and there are far too many models too build and keep an inventory on them. Corrosion in storage is a factor. They've been run for 20 minutes on a dyno, then the oil drained and the engine flooded with storage oil to try to keep any residual crankcase/cylinder moisture from starting corrosion. Pull the bottom sparkplugs out and oil runs out of the cylinders for a long time.

    An IO-360 isn't just an IO-360. From the TCDS for that engine:

    upload_2021-2-20_11-59-58.png

    And that's just the IO-360 series, not the carbureted O-360 series or the 235s or 320s or the 390s or 540s or 720s or the GO-435s, many of them O- or IO- or AEIO- or TIO- or LTIO- or HO- or HIO- engines. Hundreds of models that most owners are completely unaware of. How'd you like to try to keep stock on even the most popular 30% of those?
     
  32. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,327
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Perhaps, but Lycoming has done the bait and switch on me three times in the last 5 years. They give you a date to produce the parts then they keep extending it until you get tired of waiting and go elsewhere. The last time we waited 8 months before pulling the plug (pre-covid) and going elsewhere.

    Most of my dealings with Lycoming are for parts, not whole engines, and most of the time they’re ok. But they have this habit of not telling the real story in some cases and it is really irritating when you’re trying to run a shop and keep people happy yet every time you call it is an additional 4-6 weeks. Hopefully the guy having trouble getting an engine from them gets his sooner rather than later.
     
  33. NavAir

    NavAir Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NavAir
    So, talked to the Lycoming rep today. My engine should ship tomorrow. Looking like 4 months from date of order to delivery for an IO-360-M1A (assuming). That is a long time. My mood should improve when it arrives and I can install it.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  34. thomasdr72

    thomasdr72 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    305
    Location:
    Panama City, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    thomasdr72
    CAUTION:

    IF it sounds too good to be true... Re-read the first part of the second sentence: "Return your like-model OPERATING engine..." I've personally seen times when they gave ZERO core credit for an engine that was obviously disassembled, inspected and then the owner determined they wanted a replacement factory engine. The mechanic reassembled the core and shipped it off... BUT!--The owner ate the core charge (I think it was $16k for an O-320-E2D core at the time). Hopefully this was an extreme case, but tread lightly...

    V/r,
     
  35. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    27,968
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    @Hangontight you are not alone. I recall a fellow on one of the chat boards who sought and received all sorts of advice on buying an airplane. He too bought himself a Skyhawk, and went to use it to go see all the internet friends who had advised him to buy it. I think he wound up overhauling the engine away from home. Real nightmare, lots of AMUs. Good news is once you're done you'll have an airplane with a new engine.

    One fo my friends has been flying his Skyhawk so long he's put 2 engines in it.
     
  36. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    7,262
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    I was aware of that, having bought numerous Lyc factory engines. That "operating condition" is to prevent shysters from sending a boxful of forever-unserviceble parts from several engines and calling it a core. And if it's been disassembled, corrosion sets in quickly.
     
  37. NavAir

    NavAir Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NavAir
    My engine arrived today!

    IMG_4559.jpg
    IMG_4566.jpg IMG_4562.jpg

    Now, to get it installed..
     
    Jim K, TCABM, AKBill and 3 others like this.
  38. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,603
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WDD
    Don’t forget which engine is used and new .......
     
    NordicDave likes this.
  39. Daleandee

    Daleandee Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,101
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dale Andee
    Pretty easy ... the new one smells like money!
     
    BrianNC and Hangontight like this.
  40. NavAir

    NavAir Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NavAir
    Since they look so similar, I considered just spray painting the old one with a new coat of Lycoming Gray paint and reinstalling. That should work, right? ;)