Fire Extinguishers

If I hit something hard enough to break that extinguisher loose? I might bruise an ankle. Not my biggest concern under those circumstances. My extinguishers have served me well. That's the only pirep I've got.
 
I mounted mine under the pilot seat using the secondary seat restraint bolt. I sit far enough back that it is accessible without much trouble. Of course, if there are flames in the cockpit I may not want to lean forward to reach for it.
 
weilke said:
Turn in the old one to a halon recycler. The only halon available going forward is what they can get from recycling.
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I've reached out to them. Too small and my cylinder is too old to be DOT compliant to ship (cost prohibitive). Just going to keep it in the hangar for now.
 
I suspect fires are more common on the ground than in flight.

I once had a ground fire, in the engine compartment of a trainer, after flooding an engine and then backfiring. A chemical extinguisher put it out fast. I just pointed it in the cowl opening where you check oil. The mechanic replaced a couple of hoses and washed the compartment, and everything was good again.

I wouldn't want to use a chemical extinguisher in flight, but on the ground it was perfect.
 
Stewartb said:
If I hit something hard enough to break that extinguisher loose? I might bruise an ankle. Not my biggest concern under those circumstances. My extinguishers have served me well. That's the only pirep I've got.
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Sorry you still don't get it, you might have jammed up rudder pedals. There's a reason aircraft utilize bolts and nuts with locking features almost everywhere. Bad stuff seems to happen at the worst possible time. If it were mine, I'd replace the screws with bolts, nuts, and washers.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Sorry you still don't get it, you might have jammed up rudder pedals. There's a reason aircraft utilize bolts and nuts with locking features almost everywhere. Bad stuff seems to happen at the worst possible time. If it were mine, I'd replace the screws with bolts, nuts, and washers.
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Maybe move the bracket to the inside of the frame? Forward momentum in a sudden stop wouldn't require the fasteners to take the load.
 
GMascelli said:
Halon Fire Extinguisher (2.5lb. gross weight, 2B:C rating)

2207a.jpeg
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I keep one of those in my flight bag and carry it from airplane to airplane. Airborne fire issues aside, can always use it on the ground if it catches fire during ground ops (like carburetor fire or something). If fits nicely inside one of those padded lens cases that photographers carry around.
 
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If you're belted up with the seat slid forward for engine start and the engine pops and shoots flames out the cowl.... how long does it take you to get out of the plane and deploy your extinguisher? What if the fire fills the cabin with smoke? How long to get the extinguisher into action? Have a fire and you'll re-think your extinguisher options. Have two and you'll refine it again. Have three and you might even mount one in your truck, too, because when your plane's on fire there's no such thing as too much extinguisher. That's a pirep. Hopefully other pilots can learn from it.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Alright, you have the "what if I have a fire" covered (for the most part). Consider the "what if I'm in an upset or something" and the fire extinguisher bracket you attached with screws comes loose, or off. That's all I'm going to say.
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Locktite.
Fixes any loose screw problem you can encounter.
Except the one flying the plane.
 
Why buy a fire extinguisher when you could buy a pilot emergency parachute rig and just bail out? :)
 
Stewartb said:
View attachment 55094
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Only problem I see here is that the release is pointed upward where it could be accidently released by a heel or pants.

I used to fly a plane that the fire extinguisher was mounted on the floor in front of the copilot seat. One time it came loose and made its way under the left rudder pedal. I did not know it was there until after I landed. Fortunately wind was dead calm.
 
That's a fair assumption but I did it that way intentionally because the latch will disengage itself when I unlatch it this way and it wouldn't when oriented the other way. I had to hold the band while unhooking the latch. Having it fall away in one motion is what prefer. I've had that one in there for about 8 years and I've never had any problem. Others can (and should) choose what works for them. The other thing to beware of is how the bottle's neck engages into the mount. I had one that bound when it was mounted horizontally and the bottle had to be aligned perfectly to get it out. I flipped that bottle to what would have been upside down and held it in place with just the latching band. It got used and I was more careful about the replacement extinguisher's mount. Live and learn.
 
I figured that was your intention. And since you don't have passengers sitting over it and resting their feet on it then there is less chance of it coming loose.

I witnessed a C-172 crash on the field I was instructing at. The fire extinguisher was mounted on the floor in the cargo area. I had to crawl into the burning plane to get to it. Then I realized that I dropped my sunglasses and had to return into the plane to get them.
 
Zeldman said:
I witnessed a C-172 crash on the field I was instructing at. The fire extinguisher was mounted on the floor in the cargo area. I had to crawl into the burning plane to get to it. Then I realized that I dropped my sunglasses and had to return into the plane to get them.
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After it stopped burning? Or before? :D
 
Matthew said:
Maybe move the bracket to the inside of the frame? Forward momentum in a sudden stop wouldn't require the fasteners to take the load.
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Ummm... sure they do. It's just a shear load across the shaft of the screw instead of pulling on the 1mm of thread.
 
denverpilot said:
Ummm... sure they do. It's just a shear load across the shaft of the screw instead of pulling on the 1mm of thread.
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I was thinking if the extinguisher was mounted on the back side of those seat pedestals instead of the face, the fasteners wouldn't carry any force in a sudden stop - unless that sheet metal deforms and pulls sideways, creating a shear - is that what you were getting at?
 
Matthew said:
I was thinking if the extinguisher was mounted on the back side of those seat pedestals instead of the face, the fasteners wouldn't carry any force in a sudden stop - unless that sheet metal deforms and pulls sideways, creating a shear - is that what you were getting at?
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Correct. You would need a piece of plate vs. that sheet metal to reduce the shear load on the screws. Back side mounting would be preferred from an ultimate loading perspective, however, in either case.
 
Matthew said:
I was thinking if the extinguisher was mounted on the back side of those seat pedestals instead of the face, the fasteners wouldn't carry any force in a sudden stop - unless that sheet metal deforms and pulls sideways, creating a shear - is that what you were getting at?
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That's what he was getting at...and that is why bolts with washers should be used so they can be loaded in tension at all times rather than enduring a shear. Anyway you look at it screws are a poor choice in that application. Even rivets would be a better choice than screws here.

I'm trying to think of a case where screws are used in a load bearing situation. Pretty much drawing a blank.
 
Those screws are in shear. They're holding the flat plate up against gravity. If you're concern is in a multi-G deceleration from a frontal impact how hard do you think it'll have to hit to cause any problem? I'm thinking it'll take more than the plane can handle and beyond that I have much bigger things to worry about. Easy access to the extinguisher is a safety feature and you guys have lost sight of that.

Show us pictures of the extinguisher mounts in your airplanes and tell us how they've worked for you in a real fire emergency. I'm always looking for something better.
 
Stewartb said:
Those screws are in shear. They're holding the flat plate up against gravity. If you're concern is in a multi-G deceleration from a frontal impact how hard do you think it'll have to hit to cause any problem? I'm thinking it'll take more than the plane can handle and beyond that I have much bigger things to worry about. Easy access to the extinguisher is a safety feature and you guys have lost sight of that.
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I see your point there, too. A 3 lb extinguisher at 10 G is 30 lb. 4 srews at 7-8 lb each. That's about as much math as my brain can handle right now.

Some of the rentals I've flown (172) have had then mounted between the front seats, front to back, but I don't remember how they were attached.
 
Stewartb said:
Those screws are in shear. They're holding the flat plate up against gravity. If you're concern is in a multi-G deceleration from a frontal impact how hard do you think it'll have to hit to cause any problem? I'm thinking it'll take more than the plane can handle and beyond that I have much bigger things to worry about. Easy access to the extinguisher is a safety feature and you guys have lost sight of that.

Show us pictures of the extinguisher mounts in your airplanes and tell us how they've worked for you in a real fire emergency. I'm always looking for something better.
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LOL maybe you're looking for something better but you're not willing to accept constructive criticism from Glenn who happens to be an A&P IA. My hangar neighbor had a similar problem with an EAA technical adviser when he thought he was done with the build. The stuff isn't personal it's just what the guy sees.

My fire extinguisher is in my flight bag. I also have a dry chem extinguisher in the hangar as required by fire code.

The two times I've used a fire extinguisher I've had to run about 20 feet to retrieve it. One was an industrial setting and the fire extinguisher was stuck in its mount rather firmly. Once I got it loose I got to run about 30 feet and then put the fire out. Nothing was changed after the fire but I did make sure none of the other extinguishers were stuck in their mounts. As a side note my supervisor didn't have the right size cartridges for the recharge so he wanted to use a 30% undersized one. The other fire was on a lawn tractor. I had to step inside the house and grab the fire extinguisher from under the kitchen sink. I keep extinguishers in the kitchen and garage. There are a couple morals to the stories there for folks who are paying attention.
 
I guess my best validation that my mount is okay came when a Cessna Service Center installed my seat locking reels. The install requires Cessna's guys to inspect and correct any seat problems, usually rollers, pins, etc. I figured they might object to my extinguisher mount but instead they commented that they liked it and thought it was a good idea. A couple of very respected IAs and one FSDO inspector have also commented favorably.

I have access to more machinery than I need to build any mount I want. Sometimes simple is the best solution
 
Stewartb said:
If you're belted up with the seat slid forward for engine start and the engine pops and shoots flames out the cowl.... how long does it take you to get out of the plane and deploy your extinguisher? What if the fire fills the cabin with smoke? How long to get the extinguisher into action? Have a fire and you'll re-think your extinguisher options. Have two and you'll refine it again. Have three and you might even mount one in your truck, too, because when your plane's on fire there's no such thing as too much extinguisher. That's a pirep. Hopefully other pilots can learn from it.
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Having been in an airplane fire - brakes on the cherokee got so hot that the wheel pants caught fire - I can confirm that I got everyone out the door, far away from the airplane, had no intention of putting out the fire, and I was immediately on the phone to the insurance company. 2 months and $23,000 later at Beegles and the result was my insurance premium went down!

My philosophy is that the insurance company owns the cherokee. I just have fun with it and pay for everything.

In the air? The halon extinguisher is under the seat in a box that is easily reached, even if it moves it won't jam the pedals.
 
Stewartb said:
Show us pictures of the extinguisher mounts in your airplanes and tell us how they've worked for you in a real fire emergency. I'm always looking for something better.
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I feel your pain. Trying to find a safe spot for one in the Mooney right now, the examples I've seen so far are pretty janky, and the cockpit is much tighter than yours.

Setting loose on the floor by my left leg, screwed to the plastic royalite trim, or hose-clamped to the seat track release bar are not high on my list.
 
Clark1961 said:
LOL maybe you're looking for something better but you're not willing to accept constructive criticism from Glenn who happens to be an A&P IA. My hangar neighbor had a similar problem with an EAA technical adviser when he thought he was done with the build. The stuff isn't personal it's just what the guy sees.

My fire extinguisher is in my flight bag. I also have a dry chem extinguisher in the hangar as required by fire code.

The two times I've used a fire extinguisher I've had to run about 20 feet to retrieve it. One was an industrial setting and the fire extinguisher was stuck in its mount rather firmly. Once I got it loose I got to run about 30 feet and then put the fire out. Nothing was changed after the fire but I did make sure none of the other extinguishers were stuck in their mounts. As a side note my supervisor didn't have the right size cartridges for the recharge so he wanted to use a 30% undersized one. The other fire was on a lawn tractor. I had to step inside the house and grab the fire extinguisher from under the kitchen sink. I keep extinguishers in the kitchen and garage. There are a couple morals to the stories there for folks who are paying attention.
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I have a small halon in the kitchen on the counter next to the stove. In the event of a fire, I don't want to be looking in cabinets. In the hangar, I've got 2 large extinguishers, one on either side of the hangar so I don't have to run around the airplane (if it;s inside) in case of a fire. But let's be honest, if the airplane is in the hangar and catches fire, I'm out the door calling the FBO to bring the fire truck then calling the insurance company. I'm not about to try to be a hero.
 
For some reason the powder fire extinguisher in the cockpit reminds me of this...

 
asicer said:
After it stopped burning? Or before? :D
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During. I could not afford to watch a cheap pair of truck stop sunglasses to go up in flames....

And the fire was mostly up where the engine used to be, not inside the plane.
 
Stewartb said:
I guess my best validation that my mount is okay came when a Cessna Service Center installed my seat locking reels. The install requires Cessna's guys to inspect and correct any seat problems, usually rollers, pins, etc. I figured they might object to my extinguisher mount but instead they commented that they liked it and thought it was a good idea. A couple of very respected IAs and one FSDO inspector have also commented favorably.

I have access to more machinery than I need to build any mount I want. Sometimes simple is the best solution
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I understand you revel in denial. No way in hell anyone likes sheet metal screws in that service. Sorry.
 
Matthew said:
Maybe move the bracket to the inside of the frame? Forward momentum in a sudden stop wouldn't require the fasteners to take the load.
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This is a simple solution to solve a potential failure mode.
 
A word from your local firefighter:

Halon extinguishes fires by displacing the oxygen needed for combustion. When used in an enclosed area it can be quite effective, however don't forget humans need oxygen as well. While Halon is "non-toxic", it can still suffocate you.

PS. Dry chemical extinguishers can be quite irritating and choking in an enclosed area as well, just ask me how I know.
 
midwestpa24 said:
A word from your local firefighter:

Halon extinguishes fires by displacing the oxygen needed for combustion. When used in an enclosed area it can be quite effective, however don't forget humans need oxygen as well. While Halon is "non-toxic", it can still suffocate you.

PS. Dry chemical extinguishers can be quite irritating and choking in an enclosed area as well, just ask me how I know.
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That's what I recall as well. University of Oklahoma has a book vault in their library which contains items like Gutenberg Bibles and Issac Newton manuscripts that are kept at strict temperature and humidity levels. Vault also had a Halon fire suppression system that when activated would close all doors and you didn't want to be in there when the system discharged as it could possibly remove all available oxygen from the room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I've been in computer rooms to demonstrate halon release. Ya end up talking funny but for a short period of time, not a problem. The computer room version does not remove all the air, just enough to supress ignition of combustible materials. The fire dept rep was in there with us.
 
midwestpa24 said:
A word from your local firefighter:

Halon extinguishes fires by displacing the oxygen needed for combustion. When used in an enclosed area it can be quite effective, however don't forget humans need oxygen as well. While Halon is "non-toxic", it can still suffocate you.
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Halon works by interrupting the chemical chain reaction that sustains combustion. It works at concentrations way below what it would take to displace oxygen. The chemical mechanism that takes place in the setting of fire is different from how a human consumes oxygen. You can have enough halon in a room to extinguish a fire yet retain a breathable atmosphere for humans. The reason to get away from a fire in a data center is not the halon release, it's the the poisonous products of combustion produced from burning insulation materials and circuit boards.
 
http://www.amerexfireextinguishers.com/Halotron1_MSDS_1_.pdf

"Use of this material in confined spaces when personnel are present is acceptable only if the volume of the space is sufficiently large"

"Inhalation of high concentrations of vapor may cause central nervous system effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, anesthesia, or unconsciousness"
"At concentrations of 20,000 ppm or higher, HCFC-123 may causes increased sensitivity of the heart to adrenaline which might cause irregular heart beats and possible ventricular fibrillation or death"

"Eye contact:
May cause irritation, tearing, or blurring of vision, which result in part due to the cooling effect of HCFC-123 evaporation"
 
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weilke said:
Halon works by interrupting the chemical chain reaction that sustains combustion. It works at concentrations way below what it would take to displace oxygen. The chemical mechanism that takes place in the setting of fire is different from how a human consumes oxygen. You can have enough halon in a room to extinguish a fire yet retain a breathable atmosphere for humans. The reason to get away from a fire in a data center is not the halon release, it's the the poisonous products of combustion produced from burning insulation materials and circuit boards.
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This is correct. I worked for a company that manufactured Halon and other clean agent extinguishants. It's chemical reaction not oxygen displacement. Halon is best because it takes very little to do a great job. (Was also an industrial and municipal volunteer firefighter for 10 years).

Also, Halotron is not Halon. It's not as effective and takes more of it and thus is at higher concentration in the cockpit. That may be one reason why FAA still requires Halon - even though ozone layer safe replacements came out decades ago, and even though another branch of government banned new manufacture.
 
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