Finally got my E6-B today

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Daniel L, Dec 9, 2017.

  1. John221us

    John221us En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,034
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    I can’t speak for all of them, but ForeFlight certainly does the fuel and altitude and speed calculations and I adjust for best altitude (takes seconds). I believe the few times I used Fltplan.com it did too. As far as enroute wind differences, yes, you get real time correction. You can also download the most recent forecasts right before takeoff (with instant results) and there are other tools for collecting weather data enroute, such as ADSB an XM).

    Maybe better training with modern tools would help with these misunderstandings.
     
  2. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    All great, as long as the forecasts are correct.
     
  3. John221us

    John221us En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,034
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    I guess I don’t understand what you are saying. How does an E6B provide better forecasts or even real time calculations, enroute? Again, it is the tool you are comfortable with and I am not trying to convert you. But the FAA should be providing training for the current tools, not something that hasn’t been in practical use for decades.
     
  4. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    It doesn't...but it takes less than 5 seconds during preflight to see how 20 knots of forecast error (or whatever number you choose) would affect the flight. And if you're at altitude with unforecast winds, you can use the actual (unforecast) winds reported at a different altitude, along with appropriate TAS and fuel flow, to determine which would be more beneficial. nobody I've flown with over the last 20 years has found that capability with anything they carry or have mounted in the panel.

    As has been said more than once in this thread...the FAA does not provide training, nor do they require the use of any particular tool.
     
  5. John221us

    John221us En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,034
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    If you have enroute weather, you can absolutely recalculate the best altitude. I have done it many times (not in panel, but ForeFlight).

    I guess your right, the FAA doesn’t provide training, but they do limit the tools you can use for certification and testing, which, in turn, dictates the training you will receive.

    I don’t consider the electronic E6B any more useful (actually less useful).

    I am not putting down the E6B, but there are better tools out there that provide better flight planning and better situational awareness enroute. The FAA should be providing better guidance to future pilots.
     
  6. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    They limit what you can take into the knowlege exam, but not the checkride.

    The training one receives is generally only dictated by the limitations of the instructor.
     
  7. John221us

    John221us En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,034
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    DE61BABF-B949-4BB9-B7FF-8B546767861C.png FYI
     
    abqtj likes this.
  8. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Where does it show how an additional 20 knots of unforecast headwind would affect that?
     
  9. robert lomax

    robert lomax Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    227
    Location:
    North Mason, Washington St.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    just bought 6329R 66 PA 28 Im a plane owner mpg
    Their is NO "Unforecast" Headwind!!!
    how could it know what you're worried about?
    how about unforecast flying monkeys?
    maybe their is a way to ask an E6B or another type of flight helper about these types of unknown things,,,
    but is that the point of this thread?
     
    abqtj likes this.
  10. John221us

    John221us En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,034
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    It does recalculate your ETA based on actual. Are you talking about throwing hypothetical situations out there and calculating them? If so, then maybe not, but that isn’t hard math to do in your head. Again, I am not trying to convert you. If you took a poll on what percentage of cross country flights (outside of training) were planned using a paper chart and an E6B, I am pretty sure it would be close to zero.
     
  11. Daniel L

    Daniel L Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    96
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Daniel
    If i knew my question would generate such debate...

    Sent from my cheap plastic brick using Tapatalk
     
  12. robert lomax

    robert lomax Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    227
    Location:
    North Mason, Washington St.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    just bought 6329R 66 PA 28 Im a plane owner mpg
    I Did answer your original quiry, simply, in 19 minutes...
    But you, being new here could'nt have known, that the mention of a
    E6B on this POA forum would bring out most of the posters,,,
    and they are all haters of the old tried and true...

    I got my E6B in my "learn to be a pilot" Cessna training kit in 1978..
    In 4 months and 40 hours, 1000$, 2 Pages of my log book, I did get my PPL!
    It is in my flight bag, in my arms reach, from my easy chair,,, all the time,, right now!!

    You want to learn how to use it? Good.
    Just dont try to look up how to prepare for the unfortunate, unforcasted 20 knot flying monkeys!!!
     
  13. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    It's that last few statements I don't get.
    Why do you have a paper map? It's obsolete. If you are in a situation where you have to suddenly rely on old tech like paper maps, wouldn't it be kinda good to have an E6B and be current in how to use it?

    An EMP taking out the SAT network would be unlikely, but you chose the situation, and I'm thinking you wouldn't have "much bigger" problems if it happened, you'd still be up in the air and need to land.
    But why so armeggeddon? Electronics can fail. I don't know what you ar using or what it needs, but I'm guessing it requires connections. A map and E6B are self contained. Anything electronic can fail or hang. My iPad (an older iPad 2) often hangs, sometimes needs a reboot. If I spill coffee on it, It's kaput. It can fail even without adding water. Having a backup that doesn't require connections, electricity seems like a no brainer when it weighs so little.

    I get your point, but as I pointed out, for me as a student I'm very glad to learn it. In many calculations it shows me the relation for many more than the target value, at a glance. The wind side has helped me visualize the underlying wind triangle. It helps me see the relatinship between TAS and CAS, true alt. Etc. at a glance.
    It's fun to use in that way.

    I'm sure that when I get my PPL, and start flying I'll be using SkyDemon (am on a free trial now, and yeah...pretty cool!") or something, and some apps for calulations, but I'm also sure I will always have a map and E6B in the flight bag. But I am glad that my school requires us to learn it. Maybe it is "obsolete" but for learning. You mention we can be taught the underlying principles, but we ARE and it still helped me a lot using the thing in addition to the taught principles.

    I had a similar discussion on a different forum about watches. Was attacked as a Luddite for still using a watch "when all telephones have clocks" and I pointed out my phone is in my pocket, to see the time I have to fish it out, turn it on, which requires using my hands, yet when I want to see the time at a glance all I have to do is slightly turn my wrist.

    I can think this was a person that never had their phone in their pocket, so they didn't get that concept. One that always has it in their hands, staring at it. The other person was adamant that it wasn't important. A watch has a second hand, and each mark on it is 30 degrees (each minute mark 6 deg.) so it also helps me visualize the compass headings better. He still insisted it was stupid to have a watch. Old, obsolete.

    I would point out too, an E6B is in every way totally, a computer. Advantage is no screen to go bad (unless you leave it out in the sun) no connection needed, no battery. Even more, no updates, no "bugs", no subscription, no yearly fee, your kids won't download a bunch of apps to it using up all the memory, and they sure won't borrow it. But still it is a computer. So really the complaint of it is, you don't like the user interface.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
    Brad Smith likes this.
  14. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,482
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    OkieAviator
    Like most I also have not touched my E6-B since ppl training. who knew there was a population of pilots that were so pro-E6-B. Personally I don't have an issue doing calculations in my head for changing conditions. It's not down to the 30 second mark or .2 of a gallon, it's more based on time in flight.
     
    John221us likes this.
  15. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    You'd be amazed how many pilots can't do that math in their head. Many might even say that doing math in your head is obsolete. ;)
     
  16. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    I just don't get the obvious animosity, even active dislike, for E6B. Seriously, it's not "obsolete" as the data derived from it still is correct, it isn't any more correct on an electronic device. Its a pretty impressive design to me, packing all kinds of useful data and computations into a very small device. Like I said, it's not the computations, it can't be, they are correct, but it's the interface. With a littl practice, the thing is quick, efficient and easy to use. It's a useful tool.
    The data is as good as any app.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  17. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    20,965
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    You're cool Daniel. It wouldn't be a POA thread unless we had debate or the thread derailed.... ;)
     
    Daniel L likes this.
  18. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,337
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    I’m all for more modern methods but you still need know how you’re getting the numbers. I don’t like the apps where you can just plug numbers in and it spits out another number. Knowing why and how you got the number is important.
     
  19. Half Fast

    Half Fast Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,931
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast
    For time-speed-distance and fuel consumption stuff, I agree with Bob. For those calculations, the e6b is quick, efficient, and simple.

    For wind calculations, for density altitude, etc., it's a PITA and the scales are difficult to read accurately.

    But who says it's an either/or thing? Use every tool you have, whichever works best for the problem at hand. Use FF to do winds, then an e6b to play the what-if games. Set what FF says on the e6b, then you can see other scenarios at a glance.
     
  20. John221us

    John221us En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,034
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    Hey Bob, I don’t have any animosity for people that use one. My point was more about where initial primary training should be focused. I know that I have not pulled the E6B out of my bag in over 400 hours and the many pilot friends I know, don’t use one either. I think you would be hard pressed to find a pilot that uses one for flight planning after initial training. Rules of thumb work pretty well for time and distance enroute. 120 KTS =2 miles a minute. My plane burns a little under 10 GPH, so I just use 10. As mentioned above, it doesn’t need to be accurate to the second and if you land with an extra gallon of fuel, it’s not a problem.
     
    LongRoadBob likes this.
  21. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,482
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    OkieAviator
    For me it's really just about time... sitting down with a paper sectional, breaking out a nav log and E6-B just takes time. I think my first few training XCs it took me a maybe 2 hours each to plot and plan, which for a training purposes was a solid learning experience. Towards the end of training and for my checkride I could knock one out in maybe 20-30 mins, most the time being spent spinning the wheel and writing the info down. So I guess that is why I 'dislike' the E6B or more accurately why I don't use one, and you would be hard pressed to convince me the value of it over any number of EFBs out on the market today.
     
  22. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,745
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    Exactly. Why waste time with manual calcs when automated systems will do the calcs perfectly every time? Ya still gotta do the weather review and chart study. Software won’t do that for you...
     
  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Student pilots:

    1. Choice of instructor is important.

    2. Taking control of and responsibility for your training is important.
     
  24. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Thats an issue with sectionals and NAV logs (primarily NAV logs), not whiz wheels...very different things.
     
  25. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,482
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    OkieAviator
    The time element? What do you do with the information that you get from the E6-B... I guess I can't envision a time when I would rather brake out an E6-B and get calculating than punch things into my GPS, Ipad, Phone or just work it through mentally. I do on occasion fly with no GPS following only the EFB sectional for funsies. At no time did I bring up my E6-B app to figure anything out. You'd have to educate me on a scenario in which it would be utilized.
     
  26. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Anything that you might use a computer/calculator for. Your preference as to what you use....if you want to use electronics or work it out in your head, that's your choice. The flight planning process that you said takes a long time was filling out the NAV log. Whatever you use to do your calculations isn't the time killer...the time killer is figuring out the inordinately high number of calculations that instructors require in a NAV log.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  27. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    Let me make a different point, regarding students. Or this student.

    Planning cross country, or longer trips, or at this stage even just airwork around my base airport.
    I find that it does take some time to calculate, but it is getting to be quicker as I get used to it.
    But ther is another aspect that I am also struggling to really "see" the charts, the information, etc. and having to think a lot about what I'm seeing and visualize it for airspace, landmarks, alternate airports, etc.

    At this stage I have no idea how experienced pilots work, and take everyone's word for it that E6B is way more cumbersome to use in flight, and for you guys even in planning. I'm sure I will be using electronic after I feel comfortable with the elements, the principles. But I'm also sure that I will have my E6B in my flight bag always, and will try and keep "current" on it. For one thing, I get a kick out of using it.

    But I also know myself, that for cross country, I need to get the plan and alternates, in my head so I have a mental picture. Have been toying with SkyDemon and it is fantastic. Really well done software too. User interface is well thought out and intuitive. Still, just got an email from the SkyDemon team about changes, and several of them are of information that they found out users weren't aware existed....which amazes me as I found all the items they had moved to be more apparent within the first few days. This tells me that many users are using this software like many users do....about half of the actual functionality. Minimal.

    Even just hiking, for me, an actual paper map lets me digest the terrain and routes much better than a GPS. A paper chart gives me a much better feel, and as I am drawing my route and figuring the wind, HDG, GS, fuel, time, etc. it seems like that it helps me also visualize, look around other than the route for landmarks, for terrain, for alternate airports, and it's hard to explain but any stage it just puts me in the game. When I plot with SkyDemon, I just draw a line between two points, it warns the route is through airspace I need to know about, etc. but it takes a lot more effort to sit and study the map, and it doesn't have as much information as my chart does. They have to simplify it a bit. It's too easy, so I don't plan in the same way.

    I still have a ways to go with paper charts, which I may never have done if we were allowed to use the electronic flight planners in the exam. Think about that. I could become a pilot, without being able to really read and use a paper chart! I could plot a track, and be used to just letting the software tell me if I need to adjust it. If it failed I could pull out a paper chart and start wondering what the blue lines mean, etc.
    For me, I have to use paper charts to get used to...using paper charts. No other way really.

    But that's me now. I get some pilots mention using rules of thumb, and math in their heads, etc. and I'm sure that works and come with experience.

    I really, really disagree though that it is obsolete to TEACH students with it. Of my class none of my classmates seemed to have a problem learning/using the E6B.

    Also I (being a newbie) really enjoy taking time to go into the details. That will surely change when I get more experience.

    As I said, it also helps you see the relationships better...it's all laid out there on the scale.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  28. RalphInCA

    RalphInCA Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,308
    Location:
    Glendora, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RalphInCA
    Every time I see a thread about using an E6B I wonder how many engineering schools are teaching engineering students to use slide rules “just because that’s the way we always did it, and young engineers need to pay their dues“
     
    Ravioli likes this.
  29. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,745
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    It’s safe to ask if any engineering profs even know how to use a slide rule. I learned how to do simple calcs on a slide rule in high school but doubt I could figure it out without googling a good bit these days.
     
  30. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,141
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Just do a couple sample problems to warm up...
    20171211_132942.jpg
     
  31. CJ Rader

    CJ Rader Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    AR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TIE-Fighter
    I have triple-redundant E6-Bs in my flight bag. :) I have the plastic one that came with my Cessna private pilot course kit. I have an electronic E6-B from Sporty's. And I have the E6-B app on my iPhone, also from Sporty's. Additionally, I have FlyQ EFB on my iPad which slices, dices and juliennes fries better than my 3 E6-Bs combined.

    Oh wait... I have FOUR slide-rule type devices. I forgot that my wrist watch has an aviation slide rule on it as well. LOL

    So, any number of devices are available to tell me that I've thrown off my weights and balances with too many slide rules and am likely outside the safe envelope.
     
  32. Half Fast

    Half Fast Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,931
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast
    I am shocked, absolutely shocked, that you're not using a pocket protector. Are you deliberately trying to lose your professional standing?
     
  33. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    14,835
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Years ago we had a young woman who was a secretary who was taking an "Introduction to Computer Science" course at the local community college. We, computer geeks, were helping her with her homework and the first unit was computing history and she's intoning "Napier's bones are a slide rule like device." I knew from the way she said it that she had no idea what a slide rule was. Now, this is 1983 and we're in an Army Ballistic Lab with lots of older scientists. I started hunting all over the building for a slide rule. Lots of guys admitted to still having them at home but nobody had one in their office. Finally, in desperation, I grabbed the one we had in the machine room. It was one of these classroom teaching things and about six feet long.
     
  34. Half Fast

    Half Fast Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,931
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Too bad you weren't here. I have about 10 at home, including a circular one. :)
     
  35. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Never seen it with slide rules, but "You have to learn this, but you'll never see it in industry" is one of the reasons I decided that I was wasting my money on an engineering degree.
     
  36. RalphInCA

    RalphInCA Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,308
    Location:
    Glendora, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RalphInCA
    The same could be said about most degree programs.
     
  37. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,822
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Quality aviation programs, too, I guess. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  38. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    Seems like that part is getting ignored a little, a few have made it. It's a good one.
    So if you can do it all in your head, or for wind...draw wind triangles, etc. then you don't HAVE to use an E6B in the exams.
    They just don't allow electronics with memory capability, OR that compute for you (at least here, calculators can only have simple arithmetic functionality, which are getting harder to find) with preset formulas.

    So, in that case E6B is pretty handy, considering the time limits. They don't allow (again, at least here) the E6B instruction book either.
     
  39. Half Fast

    Half Fast Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,931
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Here you can use an electronic e6b that has all the formulas, wind calculations, unit conversions, etc., just no user accessible memory. And if you take the exam on line, the FAA test software includes an e6b.

    I carried an electronic e6b to the exam but never used it. The one provided on the test computer was easy to use and perfectly adequate.
     
  40. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    Ok. I didnt realize that. So different than where I am. Here the only electronic allowed is a arithmetic only calculator. We actually have to remove our wristwatches even when taking the exam.