Ferry Permit

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Tom-D, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    32,239
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    can a A&P sign off a Ferry permit with out a Aircraft Worthiness Certificate.
     
  2. alfadog

    alfadog Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,020
    Location:
    Miami
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    alfadog
    I don't think that would be a good idea. I inadvertently did that in Arkansas earlier this year and when the owner went to the fsdo to get the permit, we discovered that there was an issue with the airworthiness certificate. Luckily it didn't bite me.
     
  3. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,841
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    Great to see you back, Tom!
     
    dell30rb and Ryanb like this.
  4. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    32,239
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    it is coming back slowing, getting help spelling.
    not working yet.
     
    aftCG and Checkout_my_Six like this.
  5. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,841
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    Heck, you couldn’t spell before. :). Keep giving it hell.
     
    timwinters likes this.
  6. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    2,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Yes. But I doubt you could get a SFP approved over the phone and faxed without an actual AWC onboard the aircraft. Would require FSDO personal service.

    Good to see you vertical/sitting. ;)
     
  7. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,780
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    Hi, Tom. Good to see you posting. I hope all is well.
     
  8. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    5,274
    Location:
    A Rubber Room
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cli4ord
    A ferry permit is a special airworthiness certificate, so it sounds reasonable you would not need the standard airworthiness certificate because it wouldn’t be valid anyway.

    Insurance is a potential issue under a ferry permit, so why not just get a both.
     
  9. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    682
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Reread the OP's post in post 1.

    An A&P must sign the ferry permit. If no AWC is found in the aircraft, the A&P needs to make a decision. The preferable route would be to contact the FSDO and have them verify and reissue the AWC.
     
    Rgbeard, Bell206 and Ryanb like this.
  10. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    17,239
    Location:
    west Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Taylor
    §91.203 Civil aircraft: Certifications required.
    (a) Except as provided in §91.715, no person may operate a civil aircraft unless it has within it the following:
    (1) An appropriate and current airworthiness certificate.

    (§91.715 has to do with foreign a/c)

    Also,

    “A Special Flight Permit is not an authorization to deviate from the requirements of 14 CFR Part 91”

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/phl/local_more/media/ferry_permit.pdf
     
    Doc Holliday likes this.
  11. tom28z

    tom28z Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    15
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom Ford
    Fsdo is no longer issuing them. You have to hire a DAR. And they have to come look at the airplane.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    682
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  13. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    2,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    If talking E/AB certs then yes. All other certs FSDOs still issuing with special flight permits still a FSDO speciality.
     
  14. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,605
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    my WAG is since you need to talk to the FSDO to get the SFP approved anyway, discuss it with them when you are asking for the SFP. good to see you back tom, and i will try not to get you to wound up until you are back to 100% :)
     
  15. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,605
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    and its time that EAA send the big dog lawyers after them. where is their authorization to privatize a function that they are charged with under federal law? the tampa FSDO will not even issue a CFI renewal even if you do the course you have to get a DPE to issue the cert now.
     
  16. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    682
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    If the FSDO is requiring someone to pay a DPE for a service they can do, then a complaint needs to be filed with a congressman or senator.

    FSDO's are currently understaffed with Operations Inspectors, but AST's (Aviation Safety Technician) can also renew CFI's.
     
    Bell206 likes this.
  17. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,605
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    directly from the faa.gov site:
    Until further notice, the Tampa Flight Standards District Office is NOT accepting appointments for any of the following Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) functions:
    • Remote Pilot Certificates
    • CFI Renewals
    • Private Pilot Certificate Based on Foreign Certificate
    • Military Competency
    • SIC Type Rating Applications
    • SOE restriction removals
    • Restricted ATP limitation removal
    • Student pilot certificates (seeking Private or Sport privileges)
    • Ground Instructor applications (Basic, Advanced and Instrument)
    • To locate a DPE, visit the following website and select SW31 or any other office location: Designee Locator
     
  18. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    2,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    "How are we allowed to delegate?

    Public law allows the FAA to leverage its limited resources through delegation. Title 49 of the United States Code (49 USC) 44702(d),says the FAA may delegate to a qualified private person a matter related to issuing certificates, or related to the examination, testing, and inspection necessary to issue a certificate on behalf of the FAA Administrator as authorized by statute to issue under 49 USC 44702(a)."

    https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/about/#q2
    As mentioned above, send letters to your reps over the "excessive" use of designees. The Designee program is administered at the FSDO level but oversight is at higher levels and there are built in justification rules. Have sent letters myself but it was over the lead times to get something signed vs using a DAR. It can make a positive difference especially if your reps don't like the FAA.
     
  19. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    26,261
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    Good to see you back Tom. Always best to be on the right side of the grass.
     
  20. flyingron

    flyingron Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    17,344
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Not issuing what? FSDO emailed me an airworthiness certificate when we couldn't find one. Same with ferry permits.
     
  21. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,404
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Service levels vary significantly between offices. Unless you guys are comparing notes on the same office it’s a futile conversation.
     
    timwinters likes this.
  22. flyingron

    flyingron Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    17,344
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    I've gotten a new airworthiness approved over the phone in the course of an hour or two. All they needed was to verify the details (N number, serial number, etc...). The SFP took faxing an application and a copy of the A&P signoff but didn't take any longer. CLT FSDO (ymmv).

    By the way, the FAA doesn't issue paper airworthiness certificates anymore. They're all PDFs that you're responsible for printing out. The FCC went this way some time ago. I always laugh in that all my certificates are watermarked "Official Copy" which I can print as many as I like. If you ask for a duplicate, you get ones watermarked "Duplicate Copy."
     
  23. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    9,770
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Check_my_Six
    Depends.....just did one a few months ago.



    but it had an airworthiness cert. ;)
     
  24. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    32,239
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    Can a FSDO refuse to issue a Ferry permit ?

    Let's say FSDO knows there is unsafe conditions, like a previous accident that is not repaired.

    Or they simply put it on the A/P
     
  25. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    682
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Yes they can, and they have.
     
    Bell206 likes this.
  26. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    2,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Yes.
     
  27. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    2,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    My answer was directed to the OP where no AWC was in aircraft for the SFP to take effect. The only time I signed a SFP with no AWC in the aircraft was during an export process where we flew a helicopter to a shipping dock after the Export C of A was issued. FSDO hand carried it to us.
     
  28. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    2,606
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    And they should.
     
  29. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    32,239
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    Thought So :)