FE Exam

ScottM

ScottM

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iBazinga!
I was looking through the King Schools catalog last night and the Flight Engineer course caught my eye. I have no plans to ever fly for the majors but learning more about aircraft systems seemed interesting. I spend a lot of time on heavy metal and having a better idea of how they operate would be kinda cool. Is there any reason not to buy the King School course?

Their prices are always so high I sometimes wonder about the benefit. What to y'all think about taking the FE course and test?
 
tonycondon said:
Johns bug eyes and Marthas Afro?

sounds like a fun project actually, could learn a lot.
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I was thinking it would be something new to do, I can do it on my flight to Taiwan in a couple of weeks, and worse case is I learn something and feed my unhealthy infatuation with Martha.

If I take the exam what does it get me? Can I get a flight engineer rating at all?
 
im sure you could, i suppose youd have to find a sim or actual aircraft that requires a FE and then take a checkride.
 
Scott, the FE rating has pretty much gone the way of the dinosaur. You would be better served getting the part 121 ATP written. It is much more useful and covers about 80% of the same stuff, IIRC.
 
Are there any airlines (other than those freight carriers hiring professional FE's for planes like 707's, DC-8's, and Herkies) still asking for the FE exam for rating for pilot applicants?
 
Ron Levy said:
Are there any airlines (other than those freight carriers hiring professional FE's for planes like 707's, DC-8's, and Herkies) still asking for the FE exam for rating for pilot applicants?
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Not that I am aware of. None of the Pax haulers have airplanes that have FEs on them anymore.
 
Several of the organizations that give out scholarships require an FE written... Such as Women In Aviation, The 99's... for whatever bizarre reason they want that written exam, even for type ratings on a 737!
 
I'm a little biased here, but I'll give my input anyway. The FE ticket today is merely resume fodder unless you intend to fly for cargo (i.e. FedEx, Atlas, Evergreen). The nice thing about having the ticket and trying to get on with one of those outfits is if you have a Comm ticket also, it is the gateway to the right seat of a 747. FE experience plus being able to be paid to pilot an aircraft can get you hired as a second officer instead of a professional flight engineer. As far as taking the course for the benefit of learning systems, it is an extremley generalized curriculum. By that I mean it teaches a general hydro, pneumatic, engine, electrical, etc. system. Specifics are taught by the company you are hired with. If your goal is to learn generalizations, go for it. If you are trying to get something usefull and have no intentions of flying heavies, then go with the ATP written like sugested above. Hope this helps.
 
smigaldi said:
I was thinking it would be something new to do, I can do it on my flight to Taiwan in a couple of weeks, and worse case is I learn something and feed my unhealthy infatuation with Martha.

If I take the exam what does it get me? Can I get a flight engineer rating at all?
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You'll learn how to do weight an balance by MAC on an E6B and move it around till it works out. That's pretty much what I learned from FEX. What can it get you...in practical terms, nothing, it's just a written. You still have to take type specific training in the plane you'll FE on, and the only planes I can think of that still fly a sideways seat are 727s, L1011s and the real old 747s that haven't been upgraded, and most of them use a rated pilot for FE so they can be mixed into the forward seat rotation on the long trips for crew rest requirements. You won't learn anything of value to you, although it won't hurt you either. I'd say for you though the money would be better spent flying.
 
Henning said:
You'll learn how to do weight an balance by MAC on an E6B and move it around till it works out. That's pretty much what I learned from FEX. What can it get you...in practical terms, nothing, it's just a written. You still have to take type specific training in the plane you'll FE on, and the only planes I can think of that still fly a sideways seat are 727s, L1011s and the real old 747s that haven't been upgraded, and most of them use a rated pilot for FE so they can be mixed into the forward seat rotation on the long trips for crew rest requirements. You won't learn anything of value to you, although it won't hurt you either. I'd say for you though the money would be better spent flying.
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DC-10s and DC-6s also come to mind. The only place I can think of that's still using DC-6s is in Alaska. Lot's of DC-10s still out there.
 
Anymouse said:
DC-10s and DC-6s also come to mind. The only place I can think of that's still using DC-6s is in Alaska. Lot's of DC-10s still out there.
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Hmmmmm, well there is a (or was a couple of years ago) a freight dog in NC running a DC-6.... I forgot that the old DC-10s were 3 man.
 
FWIW, most of FedEx's DC-10's were converted to the MD-11 like 2 man flight deck. 707's still have FEs.
 
Well, the FE isn't completely worthless...

I know a guy who went for the FE against the recommendations of a lot of folks (similar to this thread), and then got an FE job with a foreign pax carrier in Kuala Lumpur. After about a year, they upgraded him to FO and after another year or two of that he came back to the US with lots of heavy jet time in the logbook and got into the right seat of a big Boeing for UPS at a MUCH younger age than the folks who follow the "traditional" route.
 
Well, I don't think Scott is going to go get hired by a foreign carrier as a Flight engineer, so in his case, an ATP written would be better.

But otherwise, I agree.
 
Like I said, it can be a ticket to the right seat and beyond. Plus being an FE has the best view of all the action.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, the FE isn't completely worthless...

I know a guy who went for the FE against the recommendations of a lot of folks (similar to this thread), and then got an FE job with a foreign pax carrier in Kuala Lumpur. After about a year, they upgraded him to FO and after another year or two of that he came back to the US with lots of heavy jet time in the logbook and got into the right seat of a big Boeing for UPS at a MUCH younger age than the folks who follow the "traditional" route.
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Didn't say it was useless, I said for Scott it was useless.:D
 
Scott's useless? Maybe I missed something in the interpretation.

:)
 
Why not just buy some used A&P training manuals from Amazon if you're interested in learning about aircraft systems for esoteric reasons? They're a lot cheaper than taking a course for a rating you'll never use.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Why not just buy some used A&P training manuals from Amazon if you're interested in learning about aircraft systems for esoteric reasons? They're a lot cheaper than taking a course for a rating you'll never use.

Rich
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I don't want the books to lug around. I was looking for something to keep my busy when I have to do my commercial flying. Sitting for many hours on end is very boring. I figure if I can learn something then it would not be time wasted. There are only so many times I can stare at the Greg Bs walking up and down the aisle for their breaks on the UAL 777s

What I am going to do is take the FE course this year and then next year towards the alter half of 2008 take the ATP. I will be closer to actually having the hours to take the ATP check ride next year.
 
smigaldi said:
I don't want the books to lug around. I was looking for something to keep my busy when I have to do my commercial flying. Sitting for many hours on end is very boring. I figure if I can learn something then it would not be time wasted. There are only so many times I can stare at the Greg Bs walking up and down the aisle for their breaks on the UAL 777s

What I am going to do is take the FE course this year and then next year towards the alter half of 2008 take the ATP. I will be closer to actually having the hours to take the ATP check ride next year.
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Scott,

Why not read the A&P books? That'd be a VERY handy rating to have as an aircraft owner. Even if you don't do your own major maintenance, being able to sign off little things would be worth it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Scott,

Why not read the A&P books?
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For the same reason I wrote and you quoted. I don't want to lug them around when I travel.

I am looking for something to do on my next flight to Asia in a couple of weeks and grabbing a few CDs is no big deal. But several books when I already pack very light so that I do not have to put my luggage in the quantum singularity known as the cargo hold. Who knows where the stuff in there turns up.

I should also remind everyone of my initial post. I wanted to learn about how jet systems operate. I spend a significant portion of my life on heavy metal. Right now for this year I already have over 150,000 miles. By the end of October that will be even higher. So knowing how those things work would be kinda fun.
 
smigaldi said:
For the same reason I wrote and you quoted. I don't want to lug them around when I travel.
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I don't understand why the A&P books would be any different than the FE books, except maybe there's more of 'em... :dunno:
 
smigaldi said:
For the same reason I wrote and you quoted. I don't want to lug them around when I travel.

I am looking for something to do on my next flight to Asia in a couple of weeks and grabbing a few CDs is no big deal. But several books when I already pack very light so that I do not have to put my luggage in the quantum singularity known as the cargo hold. Who knows where the stuff in there turns up.

I should also remind everyone of my initial post. I wanted to learn about how jet systems operate. I spend a significant portion of my life on heavy metal. Right now for this year I already have over 150,000 miles. By the end of October that will be even higher. So knowing how those things work would be kinda fun.
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Yeah, you never know when one of those Greg Bs are going to trip during their perambulations, knock themselves unconscious, then have the captain come back to investigate, trip over the FO and join him on the deck. Then there'd be no one left but you (and the relief crew :)) to fly the plane to safety!

* No flight personnel were seriously injured during the creation of this scenario! :)
 
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smigaldi said:
For the same reason I wrote and you quoted. I don't want to lug them around when I travel.

I am looking for something to do on my next flight to Asia in a couple of weeks and grabbing a few CDs is no big deal. But several books when I already pack very light so that I do not have to put my luggage in the quantum singularity known as the cargo hold. Who knows where the stuff in there turns up.

I should also remind everyone of my initial post. I wanted to learn about how jet systems operate. I spend a significant portion of my life on heavy metal. Right now for this year I already have over 150,000 miles. By the end of October that will be even higher. So knowing how those things work would be kinda fun.
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As with everything else, they are available on CD/DVD.

Edit: Oh, I see, you want them for Walter Mitty <sp?> reasons...;)
 
Henning said:
Edit: Oh, I see, you want them for Walter Mitty <sp?> reasons...;)
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I have no fantasy to fly the big jets. I think that type of flying is the most boring thing one can do. I honestly do not see how people who do it have any fun at all. I am just curios as to how all the systems work on a big planes.
 
If it's just general information on jet aircraft systems and operation you want, try Greg Brown's "Turbine Pilot's Flight Manual," which includes a CD with illustrations and animations of the various systems. You can find it at numerous internet booksellers, and it won't put your carry-on bag over gross.
 
Ron Levy said:
If it's just general information on jet aircraft systems and operation you want, try Greg Brown's "Turbine Pilot's Flight Manual," which includes a CD with illustrations and animations of the various systems. You can find it at numerous internet booksellers, and it won't put your carry-on bag over gross.
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I second Ron. It actually has more information on how jets work than the ATP or FE study materials do anyway.
 
tonycondon said:
im sure you could, i suppose youd have to find a sim or actual aircraft that requires a FE and then take a checkride.
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Never thought I'd get to tell this story, but here goes!

In 1990 I was a ground school instructor for a major airline (laid off in 1993). I taught Boeing 727-200 systems to FEs, FOs and Captains, so at the time I guess I was sort of an expert.

In writing, I asked the airline to let me complete the sim training and issue me an FE certificate. They declined, but provided me a letter verifying that I had ATTENDED GROUND SCHOOL (pretty funny, since I had been teaching it for three years). Based on the regs at the time, I had 90 days to figure out how to get the ticket or the authorization dropped dead.

A ground school student of mine owned a simulator facility in Southern CA, so I took some vacation, flew out and did a quickie ground school and the whole sim syllabus (10 sessions X 2hrs/session). Took most of the checkride in the sim on Friday the 13th (no joke), but had two checkride items that had to be completed in the A/C.

So....

My friend arranged for me to rent a 727-100 that was owned by the LA Kings hockey team for the low cost of $2500/hr. Rented the plane, rented a CAPT and FO from my buddy, and he arranged for the examiner.

Took off from Van Nuys westbound, climbed awhile. Did a #3 engine shutdown and restart (no HYD on #3), and did a manual gear release. Came back in a few minutes under an hour, with a new FEJet certificate in my flight bag.

They asked me if I wanted to do a landing or two, but I explained that for $41/minute, I'd have to pass.

Got back with the FEJet, got laid off two years later, and never used the ticket.

But I have it!:D

Thanks for sitting through that story... hadn't thought about that in a LONG time!!
 
smigaldi said:
I have no fantasy to fly the big jets. I think that type of flying is the most boring thing one can do. I honestly do not see how people who do it have any fun at all. I am just curios as to how all the systems work on a big planes.
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I meant in a "Save the Day" scenario;)
 
That is, besides the Martha King fantasy....:no:
 
gprellwitz said:
You want me to be explicit about a Martha King fantasy?:hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::eek::eek::eek::eek::no::no::no::no:
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You Sexy Martha


Sung to 'You Sexy Thing' Lyrics by (Barry White)


I believe in Martha
Where are you from you sexy thing (sexy thing you)
I believe in Martha
Since you came along you sexy thing

Where did you come from baby
How did you know i needed you
How did you know i needed you so badly
How did you know i'd give my heart gladly
Yesterday i was one of a lonely people
Now you're lying close to me making love to me

I believe in Martha
Where are you from you sexy thing (sexy thing you)
I believe in Martha
Since you came along you sexy thing

Where did you come from angel
How did you know i'll be the one
Did you know you're everything i prayed for
Did you know every night and day for
Everyday your love has satisfaction
Now you're lying next to me giving it to me

I believe in Martha
Where are you from you sexy thing (sexy thing you)
I believe in Martha
Since you came along you sexy thing

Kiss me (you sexy thing)
Touch me baby (you sexy thing)
I love the way you touch me darlin' (you sexy thing)
You're sexy (you sexy thing)

Yesterday i was one of a lonely people
Now you're lying close to me giving it to me

I believe in Martha
Where are you from you sexy thing (sexy thing you)
I believe in Martha
Since you came along you sexy thing

Touch me
Kiss me darlin'
I love the way you hold me baby
You're sexy
You're sexy (sexy thing you, sexy thing you)
Kiss me baby (sexy thing you, sexy thing you)
I love the way you kiss me darling
(sexy thing you, sexy thing you)
I love the way you hold me
(sexy thing you, sexy thing you)
Keep on loving me darling(sexy thing you, sexy thing you)
Keep on loving me baby
(sexy thing you, sexy thing you)
 
Ron Levy said:
Are there any airlines (other than those freight carriers hiring professional FE's for planes like 707's, DC-8's, and Herkies) still asking for the FE exam for rating for pilot applicants?
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Champion Air works out of the Humphry Terminal at MSP, and I always pass a Champion 727 on my way to my Midwest Airlines gate.

I just looked at the website, and they are a charter operation with 16 727s, which I assume still have a FE position. http://www.championair.com/our.html

The 727 is still a good looking aircraft, and seems to dwarf the 717s or MD-80s that seem to populate that terminal. From the front it looks like a B-52 cockpit to me.
 
nddons said:
Champion Air works out of the Humphry Terminal at MSP, and I always pass a Champion 727 on my way to my Midwest Airlines gate.

I just looked at the website, and they are a charter operation with 16 727s, which I assume still have a FE position. http://www.championair.com/our.html

The 727 is still a good looking aircraft, and seems to dwarf the 717s or MD-80s that seem to populate that terminal. From the front it looks like a B-52 cockpit to me.
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Yep, all 72s still flying do so with an FE, although this is a charter operator, not an airline. There's a few of them in service as freight dogs as well.
 
smigaldi said:
Right now for this year I already have over 150,000 miles. By the end of October that will be even higher. So knowing how those things work would be kinda fun.
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Yuck. I've got a bit over 60,000 miles on UA and their partners this year, plus miles on others, but I don't think I'll break 100,000 miles for the year. Scott, you travel too much.
 
Ghery said:
Scott, you travel too much.
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Yep.

Taiwan trip coming up. Leave Chicago on Saturday and come home on Wednesday next week. Then off to Florida on the 28th for a few days.

I wonder if UAL will make me Global Services this year? Any idea of what level of flying you have to do to get into that? On AA I was there version of that service. But that took a couple of years of >100k of travel. UAL did comp me 1k status for this year but I have obviously earned it for next year.
 
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