Favorite VFR Nav Log?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by CC268, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  3. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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  4. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  8. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Thanks guys I bet the examiner would love that one
     
  9. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    The safest way to play it. No getting lost!

    C8847449-380B-4E95-A880-B9DA402908B1.jpeg
     
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  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    At this point in time, I suspect VFR nav logs are being used, if at all, mostly for primary training and checkrides. Even by the time of my instrument checkride in 1994, I was using the dot matrix printout from the original Telnet-based DUAT system (which started in 1990).

    Basically, so long as the form has columns for the correct input numbers and output calculations, it will do the job. FWIW, here's the one I used with my students. I'd still use it today for primary instruction. It's a duplicate of one in very common use at the time.

    Not sure what you saw that was too short for the job.
     

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  11. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    That’s the same one I’ve always used. This is for my commercial checkride btw. I could just do the basic points (intersections, VORs, TOC, TOD), but I was going to include all my major landmarks as well. I suppose that isn’t necessary and I can simply talk to my major landmarks along the route.

    In my opinion, doing a hand written nav log for a commercial checkride is silly, but I digress. I actually enjoy doing them to some extent, but to think I would actually do a hand written nav log for a long cross country is silly.
     
  12. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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  13. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    That’s the one I use. I have a knee board for my iPad mini with a small clipboard on the cover, making it easy to flip back and forth. I use the iPad most of the time, but flip to the paper to check waypoints, for radio frequencies, to jot notes on wx, etc.
     
  14. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I saw that one and found it interesting. Might give it a shot
     
  15. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    Hope you're not disappointed when the examiner doesn't even want to see your Navlog. Of course Murphy's law applies, if you don't have one, he/she will want to see it.
     
  16. Aaron Trueblood

    Aaron Trueblood Filing Flight Plan

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  17. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Now offering reverse discounts.
    Applicant pulls over a 3" binder completely full of paper.

    Examiner: oh, you kept a copy of all your past flights?

    Applicant: No, that's just for this flight
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  18. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Yea no kidding...my private examiner didn’t even ask to see it lol
     
  19. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Make up one that has just the first waypoint and then the word "diversion"
     
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  20. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The have a couple of different versions. All of them seem to be the same except for the order in which they calculate the magnetic heading.

    I like it, even for short XCs, because it has enough spots in it for writing down frequencies and other info. Sure, I can get a lot of that ahead of time or from the sectional, but having a spot in a navlog specifically for that info helps remind me about it.
     
  21. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I remember my PP DPE looking at it. At the time, he assigned the same XC to all his candidates. He knew the route by heart and could tell, with a quick glance, if you did the math correctly.
     
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  22. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    Make sure you impress your examiner with your mastery of this handy computer. Bust it out on your power off 180.

    Pattern Computer.jpg
     
  23. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Lol...yea right
     
  24. Sundancer

    Sundancer Pattern Altitude

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    VFR. . .NavLog. . . I kinda remember, but like an appendix or a liberal, while there are plenty of them about, and usually harmless, not sure we need them. . .
     
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  25. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    11691954-EE04-4D08-BB57-22A3C3E37E4F.jpeg
     
  26. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I hear for the ATP they make you do a hand written nav log from Chicago to England and you have to pick checkpoints every 15NMs. Gotta make sure you can do some basic pilotage if you lose the triple redundant systems :p
     
  27. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    A NAV log only has to have enough fixes to do the job...a couple right after top of climb to make your checkride calculations, and then one every 20-30 minutes should be satisfactory, even for a DR plan if you pick them properly.
     
  28. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    It depends on its purpose. I agree with you completely on using one in the real world, because the primary goal is monitoring time and fuel use; we should not need to to know where we are. When I teach it at the primary level (and I know we're talking about commercial level here), the ones I teach are:
    • a first checkpoint which is very obvious so, no matter how much you get turned or vectored around during departure it's easy to find;
    • a last checkpoint just as obvious from which you can say, "I know the airport is hard to find, but if I turn to a heading of XXX over this checkpoint, whatever I'm looking at in the distance is in the direction of the airport" (I also taught this method in mountain training so you knew which of the identical-looking passes was the right one);
    • some between those. For primary training it's too many, but the goal is to learn how to do it. I like your 20-30 minutes for a real world rule of thumb.
     
  29. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Well...that’s what I thought but my instructor thought it would be good to have some landmarks for pilotage to show the examiner. The problem is you ask 10 different people and you get 10 different answers.

    My instructor had a FSDO guy come in and was insinuating you shouldn’t be used GPS waypoints on a VFR flight plan which I thought was absolutely absurd.
     
  30. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    I would counter I’ve got a line on my chart, and if I can’t put at least the eraser end of a pencil on my position along that line by visual reference, I’m lost.
    Maybe they’re OK on the flight plan, but one aspect of the cross country portion of the commercial checkride is pilotage...unless a GPS fix is clearly identifiable on the ground, it’s not appropriate for use as a ground checkpoint.

    I would say if you want to use one as a turnpoint, feel free...that would be part of the DR portion of your flight plann8ng and checkride.
     
  31. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Actually I guess I see what the FSDO guy was saying. I have two waypoints on my plan but they are VOR waypoints identifiable off the VOR. Not GPS specific waypoints.
     
  32. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    I don’t think “VOR is ok but GPS is not” would be the fed’s intent.
     
  33. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Can you clarify please? Are you saying I should not bother using VORs and just use ground reference landmarks (pilotage) as my in between points?

    Idk I guess I was silly to think I could plan a flight like I normally would and I could simply talk to the various landmarks that could be used for pilotage.
     
  34. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    The commercial cross country has pilotage, DR, and radio NAV components. My take on the fed’s comment would be that you have to make sure your plans and your NAV log allow you to do Pilotage and DR using visual reference as well as any radio NAV. A VOR radial isn’t a visual reference for DR.
     
  35. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I see what your saying. I’m not too worried about it. All my points coincide with some sort of a visual landmark.
     
  36. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    When we are talking about checkrides, this is THE primary consideration. Paper VFR flight planning during training and on the checkride is about demonstrating that you know how to do it on paper. Despite the PTS/ACS goal of uniformity, different examiners will naturally view "know how" differently.
     
  37. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

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    It's a VFR flight plan, shouldn't really use VOR or GPS. It should be landmark based and if you want to back up that information with radials then that is a plus. For my com check ride I chose visual check points every 10 miles or so. We took off and flew to the first two and then headed out for the airwork.
     
  38. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Back in my day :rolleyes: the PTS criteria was a flight near maximum range of the airplane, with a time limit on the planning (60 minutes? can’t remember). A waypoint every 10 miles would mean a maximum of 30 seconds to develop each navigation point after drawing my north/south course line across both sides of several charts. I think after a couple of close ones so I could do the whiz wheel thing, one navigation point per chart side sufficed.
     
  39. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I can remember from my PP training the rule of thumb being - a visual checkpoint should be verified twice. For example, "There's that overpass. How do I know that's the right overpass? Because of that tower over there and that bend in the road over there." I'll mark VOR radials for a validation, too.

    One my my first XCs went over a wind-farm that I used as a checkpoint. That was a bad choice, it went on for miles in all directions. Sure, I was over it, but it wasn't a check-point, it was more of a check-county.

    Since almost all my XC training experience was in a non-GPS environment, I think I ended up getting used to the idea of "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself." So pen, paper, whizwheel, eyeballs, sectional, compass, and clock...and then see if that all agrees with that magenta line in front of me.
     
  40. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    So now that it's over, did the examiner even look you at your navlog?