FAR Question

david0tey

david0tey

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Messages
545
Location
Virginia
Display Name
Display name:
Fox-Three
I'm preparing for my CFI checkride and have a question about logging PIC time as a student. Let's say you have been endorsed for and completed your first solo flight and you and your CFI go out to the practice area to do manuevers. Can that dual time also be logged as PIC for the student pilot since he is endorsed to make that flight? Or does he have to actually be rated in the airplane.

Please don't point me to 61.51. I have read it.

Thanks.
 
What they said. I have one log entry where I have a combination of dual and PIC because I logged my initial solo time when the instructor was verifying I was "OK" as dual and the time where I soloed as PIC all on one line. So:

PIC: .4
DUAL 1.2
Total 1.6

But yeah, PIC if you are alone in the plane as a student, if you have an instructor with you and you do NOT yet possess your license (aka a student pilot) you can't log PIC since you aren't rated in that plane. Sole manipulator doesn't apply to students.
 
david0tey said:
I'm preparing for my CFI checkride and have a question about logging PIC time as a student. Let's say you have been endorsed for and completed your first solo flight and you and your CFI go out to the practice area to do manuevers. Can that dual time also be logged as PIC for the student pilot since he is endorsed to make that flight? Or does he have to actually be rated in the airplane.

Please don't point me to 61.51. I have read it.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Why? That's where the answer is, not in the opinions (educated or not) of SGOTI. Read it again. Really. Don't start with the assumption it is not understandable. Here its is... all of it that applies to logging PIC time. If it ain't there, it ain't loggable (except for definitely one and maybe two special situations that have nothing to do with your question)

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
***
(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log ...
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.​

Does that apply to a student pilot? Does anything in 61.51 talk about student pilots? Well, there's this:

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.​

Can you answer your question based on that?
 
Last edited:
midlifeflyer said:
Why? That's where the answer is, not in the opinions (educated or not) of SGOTI. Read it again. Really. Don't start with the assumption it is not understandable. Here its is... all of it that applies to logging PIC time. If it ain't there, it ain't loggable (except for definitely one and maybe two special situations that have nothing to do with your question)

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
***
(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log ...
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.​

Does that apply to a student pilot? Does anything in 61.51 talk about student pilots? Well, there's this:
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.​

Can you answer your question based on that?
Click to expand...
I think he stipulated his reading comprehension skills were lacking in the op, but I like your encouragement!
 
whattauser said:
I think he stipulated his reading comprehension skills were lacking in the op, but I like your encouragement!
Click to expand...
That's not realy fair. Even with decent reading comprehension, I think there are two things at work. One I'm not completely sure about. When I was in 5th grade we were taught to make outlines as a way of organizing thoughts and ideas. Perhaps that skill is no longer taught or was relegated to the same dustbin as plane geometry. Since laws and regulations use that format, I guess it can be a little daunting.

The second is something I've mentioned in posts in the past. Regopgobia, an extreme or irrational fear of reading regulations. That's why I mentioned walking in with the assumption that it's not understandable.

It's really something someone working on a CFI needs to overcome.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's not realy fair....
It's really something someone working on a CFI needs to overcome.
Click to expand...

I think it is fair based on the statement he made. I agree he needs to overcome it; just not sure how he can expect to understand how to interpret the text without reference to it. Then again, he did not appear to want to understand the "why."
 
Easy answer: PIC logging doesn't depend on endorsement, but on rating. Unless you are student solo, in which case you are PIC by default so you may log it.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top