Failing Bi-Annual review

lancie00 said:
The big question is if a CFI is not satisfied with my flying during a flight review, can I log the time as pilot in command? Asking for a friend.
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Is your friend rated in the airplane, and was he sole manipulator of the controls?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Is your friend rated in the airplane, and was he sole manipulator of the controls?
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That's why I'm asking, since he wasn't capable of flying correctly, the instructor had to help so technically he wasn't sole manipulator. And since that's the case, when he was under the hood, should that be second in command?
 
lancie00 said:
That's why I'm asking, since he wasn't capable of flying correctly, the instructor had to help so technically he wasn't sole manipulator. And since that's the case, when he was under the hood, should that be second in command?
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Person under the hood would never log SIC, it's the safety pilot that would log SIC if not PIC.

If you're under the hood and not sole manipulator, then it's instruction received (and if you're not receiving instruction, then you can't log anything).
 
dmspilot said:
Person under the hood would never log SIC, it's the safety pilot that would log SIC if not PIC.

If you're under the hood and not sole manipulator, then it's instruction received (and if you're not receiving instruction, then you can't log anything).
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Thanks, I'll tell my friend. :D
 
dmspilot said:
Person under the hood would never log SIC, it's the safety pilot that would log SIC if not PIC.

If you're under the hood and not sole manipulator, then it's instruction received (and if you're not receiving instruction, then you can't log anything).
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Safety pilots can’t log SIC.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
How could they? Unless the airplane requires two pilots or you’re operating on a certificate that requires two pilots there is no such thing as SIC. You’re either PIC or a passenger.
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You didn't answer my question, but I'll answer yours. 14 CFR 61.51.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
How could they? Unless the airplane requires two pilots or you’re operating on a certificate that requires two pilots there is no such thing as SIC. You’re either PIC or a passenger.
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You missed one. If the operation requires a second pilot, that pilot may log SIC. Safety pilot falls under that category. 91.109(c) is the reg that makes the safety pilot a required crew member and 61.51(e) or (f) covers how they can log it.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You missed one. If the operation requires a second pilot, that pilot may log SIC. Safety pilot falls under that category. 91.109(c) is the reg that makes the safety pilot a required crew member and 61.51(e) or (f) covers how you can log it.
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So you’re saying that safety pilots log SIC? Not PIC

If that’s the case there is no point in loggingbit at all.
 
I attempted a Flight Review (BFR back then) on a guy who's father owned the aircraft upholstery shop on my home airport. He owned an A-36 Bonanza with the throwover yoke.

Most of us knew he was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I felt sorry for him and told him I would accept the risk of the yoke and give him his Review.

After he nearly killed us bit by stalling the plane on short final, I took the controls and landed. I taxied off the runway and got out of the plane. I told him not to worry, I would find a ride home.

I walked to the shack and called a buddy, who picked me up. No cell phones back then.

I only looked at his logbook to make sure he was legal before the flight.

A week later he killed himself in his airplane, attempting to land.

By then several of us had reported him to his Dad and the Safety folks at the GADO (FSDO now).

:(
 
Tarheelpilot said:
So you’re saying that safety pilots log SIC? Not PIC
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dmspilot said:
You didn't answer my question, but I'll answer yours. 14 CFR 61.51.
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I just read 61.51. It specifies the aircraft must require two pilots or you’re operating on a certificate that requires two pilots. That’s exactly what I said. Safety pilots are either PIC or passengers. Tell me what I’m missing. Again. You just gave me a reference to regulations that state exactly what I said.
 
lancie00 said:
The big question is if a CFI is not satisfied with my flying during a flight review, can I log the time as pilot in command? Asking for a friend.
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Can the instructor log the time as instruction given if you didn’t learn anything?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Safety pilots are either PIC or passengers.
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If the pilot is wearing a hood, a safety pilot is required. I don't know how you can call a required crewmember a "passenger".

What if the hooded pilot is the PIC? What if the airplane is a complex and the safety pilot doesn't have a complex endorsement (for example)?

I'll ask my original question again. Tell me who can log what, and why.
 
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Tarheelpilot said:
So you’re saying that safety pilots log SIC? Not PIC

If that’s the case there is no point in loggingbit at all.
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Point 1. I did not say that. The safety pilot can log PIC or SIC depending on what was agreed to before the flight. And if the safety pilot agrees to be PIC, s/he must be legal to act as PIC in all respects. Not to mention the insurance aspects.

Point 2. I mentioned 61.51(e) AND (f). So again, I did not say SIC only. And SIC is most definitely worth logging. If it isn’t, then I guess I should delete the 12,000 or so SIC hours I have from my logbook since it is pointless.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I just read 61.51. It specifies the aircraft must require two pilots or you’re operating on a certificate that requires two pilots. That’s exactly what I said. Safety pilots are either PIC or passengers. Tell me what I’m missing. Again. You just gave me a reference to regulations that state exactly what I said.
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You are missing 91.109(c). That is the regulation that makes a safety pilot a required crew member.
 
dmspilot said:
If the pilot is wearing a hood, a safety pilot is required. I don't know how you call a required crewmember a "passenger". What if the hooded pilot is the PIC? What if the airplane is a complex and the safety pilot doesn't have a complex endorsement (for example)?

I'll ask my original question again. Tell me who can log what, and why.
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PIC
Greg Bockelman said:
Point 1. I did not say that. The safety pilot can log PIC or SIC depending on what was agreed to before the flight. And if the safety pilot agrees to be PIC, s/he must be legal to act as PIC in all respects. Not to mention the insurance aspects.

Point 2. I mentioned 61.51(e) AND (f). So again, I did not say SIC only. And SIC is most definitely worth logging. If it isn’t, then I guess I should delete the 12,000 or so SIC hours I have from my logbook since it is pointless.
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Safety pilots in a flight training environment can't log SIC.

I just read the regulations you guys posted and it said exactly what I posted.

The SIC you are referring to in your log book is most definitely worth logging and is not what i was talking about.
 
dmspilot said:
If the pilot is wearing a hood, a safety pilot is required. I don't know how you can call a required crewmember a "passenger".

What if the hooded pilot is the PIC? What if the airplane is a complex and the safety pilot doesn't have a complex endorsement (for example)?

I'll ask my original question again. Tell me who can log what, and why.
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They both log PIC.
 
dmspilot said:
Why?

There were multiple questions there, which you didn't answer. Fail.
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Jesus Fng Christ...

Go read the regulations you quoted. Its plain english.

91.109c explains what is required to be a safety pilot. It is also the basis of being required crew to operate safely when the sole manipulator of the controls in under the hood.

61.51 specifies what qualifies one to log time and defines PIC/SIC.

Under the provisions of 91.109c a safety pilot may log time.
When you read 61.51 you find out it will be PIC flight time for both the safety pilot and the person flying under the hood.

There are only two times a pilot can log SIC. Safety pilot is not one of them. Not my opinion.. It's right in the regulation.
 
[QUOTE
Tarheelpilot said:
No I'm not. That allows them to log PIC not SIC.
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All 91.109 does is specify that a safety pilot is required. It does NOT mention a thing about how to log it. You have to look at 61.51(e) or (f) to figure out how to log it. If the safety pilot is legal and qualified to act as PIC and it is agreed to prior to the flight that he will BE the PIC then he can log PIC. If not then he must log SIC or nothing at all. Just the fact of being a safety pilot does not authorize logging PIC.

A person does not have to be fully qualified on a plane to act as safety pilot. He could act as a safety pilot on a 182, for example, without a high performance endorsement. He would not be legal to act as PIC but he could log SIC
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Jesus Fng Christ...

Go read the regulations you quoted. Its plain english.

91.109c explains what is required to be a safety pilot. It is also the basis of being required crew to operate safely when the sole manipulator of the controls in under the hood.

61.51 specifies what qualifies one to log time and defines PIC/SIC.

Under the provisions of 91.109c a safety pilot may log time.
When you read 61.51 you find out it will be PIC flight time for both the safety pilot and the person flying under the hood.

There are only two times a pilot can log SIC. Safety pilot is not one of them. Not my opinion.. It's right in the regulation.
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First, maybe you should read your own signature line that warns about the consequences of carelessness and overconfidence. Then YOU need to go read the regulations. Again. More carefully.

There are circumstances where the safety pilot CANNOT log PIC time. But I'm not going to attempt to explain why you're wrong if you can't even be bothered to even try to answer the questions asked or try to explain your own position instead of just stating "it's true because the regulations say so." That is not good enough. Fail, again.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Under the provisions of 91.109c a safety pilot may log time.
When you read 61.51 you find out it will be PIC flight time for both the safety pilot and the person flying under the hood.
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I have laid out my case. And so far you haven’t proven why 61.51(f) can’t apply. If what you say were true, then a safety pilot must be fully qualified with all the endorsements and sign offs as well as meet insurance requirements to BE the PIC and actually be the PIC for the flight. That just isn’t true.
 
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Tarheelpilot said:
Jesus Fng Christ...

Go read the regulations you quoted. Its plain english.

91.109c explains what is required to be a safety pilot. It is also the basis of being required crew to operate safely when the sole manipulator of the controls in under the hood.

61.51 specifies what qualifies one to log time and defines PIC/SIC.

Under the provisions of 91.109c a safety pilot may log time.
When you read 61.51 you find out it will be PIC flight time for both the safety pilot and the person flying under the hood.

There are only two times a pilot can log SIC. Safety pilot is not one of them. Not my opinion.. It's right in the regulation.
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Read the footnote at the bottom of page one. https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or.../2013/beaty - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I have laid out my case. And so far you haven’t proven why 61.51(f) can’t apply. If what you say were true, then a safety pilot must be fully qualified with all the endorsements and sign offs as well as meet insurance requirements to BE the PIC and actually be the PIC for the flight. That just isn’t true.

Sorry Charlie. Your interpretation is wrong. But do what you will. No skin odd my nose either way.
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You are correct. I stand corrected.
 
Considering that 61.51(f) has three parts to it I would say that there are 3 times you can log it, not 2.
(1) is not applicable to safety pilot since it references 61.55
(3) is not applicable either since it references part 135.

So yes there are two instances which you cannot be a safety pilot and log SIC so you are correct.

HOWEVER,

61.51(f)(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted

Which would be 91.109
 
dmspilot said:
First, maybe you should read your own signature line that warns about the consequences of carelessness and overconfidence. Then YOU need to go read the regulations. Again. More carefully.

There are circumstances where the safety pilot CANNOT log PIC time. But I'm not going to attempt to explain why you're wrong if you can't even be bothered to even try to answer the questions asked or try to explain your own position instead of just stating "it's true because the regulations say so." That is not good enough. Fail, again.
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I was bothered ... enough to read the regulations multiple times while we have been having this little exchange. Just because I was wrong doesn't mean i didn't attempt to answer the question or explain myself. You are drawing very inaccurate conclusions about me.
 
RonP said:
A bunch of us pilots were discussing bi-annual flight reviews and our experience over the few that we have had. We all felt they are always great refreshers, learning experiences and flushed out areas we had gotten lax in. The question on the table was what happens if you are real bad at the oral and flying skills especially being unsafe. Can the the CFI that performed the bi-annual suspend your flying privileges until you undergo training? Exactly what is the process the CFI can take to ensure you will not be a hazard to yourself and others?
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Post some videos of your flying and we’ll give you a free pre-review.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
i apologize for part of my posts. I have edited two of them. I just lost patience for a minute which is kind of uncharacteristic of me .
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Lol
I’ll never judge anyone for being impatient.
I do appreciate the apology though... we all find it necessary to do that from time to time.

I had never considered being safety pilot without the proper endorsement. Just never came up in my direct experience.
 
EdFred said:
6 month recurrent sort of precludes needing one doesn't it. I actually went from 2002 to 2012 without having one. IR in 04, Comm in 06, ASES in 08, AMEL in 10. At the time I didn't feel like dropping 4k on a AMES, and had to fly with Ted for an hour. Actually all of my flight reviews have had 0 ground time.
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And here, I was going to suggest that you hadn't had a legal flight review because 61.56 specifies an hour of flight AND an hour of ground... But now I see there's an exception in 61.56(f) for a CFI getting a FIRC to not need the ground. Interesting, I didn't remember that. Did they change it when they started allowing CFI checkrides to count as a flight review?
 
With such a simple, single answer how did this thread get so long :eek:
 
Ryanb said:
The question was answered in the first post by yours truly. It wouldn’t be normal if the thread just ended with a single answer though.

:)
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LOL

Well, yeah. But it wouldn’t be PoA without some thread drift.
 
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