Failed Pre-Buy Demo Flight- Pilot Wants to be Paid

n20junkie said:
First off I didn't know about the time limit for thread entry........

Sounds like a contract of some written agreement should have been used. Before the flight was accomplished. We have one side ofnthe story and its filled with holes.

Really this sounds like a big load of sour grapes and excuses not to pay up. You start the flight with questions about capabilities of the pilot and what is expected of the flight. You don't fly then use them as reasons not to pay. Its like eating the whole steak then complaining it wasn't cooked properly and you won't pay.

When the intercom didn't work, just how did you think any of your goals would be accomplished?
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Your post obviously indicates that you haven't followed the thread. Many of the issues you have brought up have already been addressed.
 
n20junkie said:
When the intercom didn't work, just how did you think any of your goals would be accomplished?
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I didn't think much would be accomlished at all - that is why I demanded he take me back...the outer limit of the class D is as far as we got.
 
Witmo said:
Did he sign off on your logbook? You may not click with a particular instructor and that is fine--you pay him off and find someone else.
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Nope and I didn't log the 30 seconds I had my hand on the stick either.

Witmo said:
You may not click with a particular instructor and that is fine--you pay him off and find someone else.
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That is what I did.
 
Captain said:
What did the CFI do wrong aside from continue when the intercom was found to be inop?
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Basically, he continued to try and act like it wasn't an issue. Never checked to even see if I was strapped in or ready for departure. Basically took me for a very short ride. Never told me what he was doing, because he couldn't. Didn't really demo much.
 
Mail a $200 check to the CFI (not the broker) with a letter that you consider presentation for payment as a release of his claim.

Why is this a question ?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Basically, he continued to try and act like it wasn't an issue. Never checked to even see if I was strapped in or ready for departure. Basically took me for a very short ride. Never told me what he was doing, because he couldn't. Didn't really demo much.
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Curious what kind of conversation you had with the CFI before getting in the airplane.
 
n20junkie said:
Regardless of the planes sale or not, the CFI did a job, he deserves to be paid.

His medical class didn't seem to bother anyone when you wanted instruction.
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He was hired to be an instructor, he did not instruct. He gave a demo ride, not instruction, Hhis medical was valid for instruction, not a demo ride. Pilots get paid $25 hr, not $300.

I wouldn't pay for contracted services I did not receive, the broker made the arrangements to have an instructor that wasn't rated to instruct in the plane by the insurance. This is the brokers ball of crap.
 
Henning said:
He was hired to be an instructor, he did not instruct. He gave a demo ride, not instruction, Hhis medical was valid for instruction, not a demo ride. Pilots get paid $25 hr, not $300.

I wouldn't pay for contracted services I did not receive, the broker made the arrangements to have an instructor that wasn't rated to instruct in the plane by the insurance. This is the brokers ball of crap.
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$ 25.00 an hour. Nobody quality instructs for that amount. The going rate around my area is 55-75.

A demo to another pilot is dual instruction.
 
LearDriver said:
$ 25.00 an hour. Nobody quality instructs for that amount. The going rate around my area is 55-75.

A demo to another pilot is dual instruction.
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Not by any definition you'll get a judge to buy off on and considering historic record, the FAA won't buy off on it either. I'd go ahead and throw the CFI under the bus with the FSDO for hauling a ride with no medical. Fine, $55hr, .5 hrs =$27.50, not a dime more. If the insurance won't let the guy run it from the back seat then he is not qualified to be an instructor for that plane as was contracted.

It's the broker who owes here and he should have never even asked, he should have just taken care of the pilot.

This s-t really pizzes me off, not just in planes but boats as well. If you aren't going to deliver what you say, don't bill for f-ing up.
 
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An aircraft salesman only needs a PPL and a 3rd class to conduct demo flights.
 
weilke said:
An aircraft salesman only needs a PPL and a 3rd class to conduct demo flights.
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If he only got paid by the passenger out of the sale commission, you would be correct. However that's not what happened. He performed the duties of a contract pilot and expects to be paid regardless of the sale. That breaks the rules there. In order for it to be 'Coincidental to business' then you cannot get paid specifically for flying. Since flying was the guy's thing, he needed a second class to do what he did. Throw him under the bus, hit him twice with a bat to make sure he stays there.
 
Henning said:
If he only got paid by the passenger out of the sale commission, you would be correct. However that's not what happened. He performed the duties of a contract pilot and expects to be paid regardless of the sale. That breaks the rules there. In order for it to be 'Coincidental to business' then you cannot get paid specifically for flying. Since flying was the guy's thing, he needed a second class to do what he did. Throw him under the bus, hit him twice with a bat to make sure he stays there.
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Can't have it both ways.

Either
He transferred control to the OP, so it was instruction. OP cut the flight short for whatever reason. CFI is due the payment for whatever daily rate he charges for instruction in warbirds.

Or
It was a demo flight, he worked as a salesman for the broker. He can do this with a PPL and a third class. He is payment due from the broker. Broker decides to be a dick and tries to get the money he is out back from the prospective buyer.
 
Transferring control is not instruction, where did you come up with that? In order to be salesman for the broker, he has to have a salesman's relationship with the broker. Salesmen get paid on sales, not rides.

Tell ya what, let's put it to the Long Beach FSDO and see what they think about it. My bet is they say "contract pilot" which is what he was; that requires a second class.
 
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Henning said:
Not by any definition you'll get a judge to buy off on and considering historic record, the FAA won't buy off on it either. I'd go ahead and throw the CFI under the bus with the FSDO for hauling a ride with no medical. Fine, $55hr, .5 hrs =$27.50, not a dime more. If the insurance won't let the guy run it from the back seat then he is not qualified to be an instructor for that plane as was contracted.

It's the broker who owes here and he should have never even asked, he should have just taken care of the pilot.

This s-t really pizzes me off, not just in planes but boats as well. If you aren't going to deliver what you say, don't bill for f-ing up.
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Who was PIC for the flight under the FAR's and for insurance purposes?
 
Jaybird180 said:
The "CFI" was PIC
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If that is the case then the guy should get paid whatever was the agreed upon price. If the guy was giving instruction while demoing the aircraft. Pay him. If there was an agreement ahead of time which that was the understanding by all parties, he should get paid. If the intercom was broken that is the problem between the buyer and seller. The cfi performed, he should get paid. I am yet to encounter an airplane that lists an intercom as non deferrable. The way some people here sounding off, an intercom is required item. Piloting is about overcoming adversity.
 
LearDriver said:
If the guy was giving instruction while demoing the aircraft. Pay him. If there was an agreement ahead of time which that was the understanding by all parties, he should get paid. If the intercom was broken that is the problem between the buyer and seller. The cfi performed, he should get paid. I am yet to encounter an airplane that lists an intercom as non deferrable. The way some people here sounding off, an intercom is required item. Piloting is about overcoming adversity.
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Just curious how one instructs without communicating....with or without an intercom???
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just curious how one instructs without communicating....with or without an intercom???
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So you are using the fact that you failed to verify that the intercom was working before you took off to claim/define that no instruction could possibly have taken place ?
 
weilke said:
So you are using the fact that you failed to verify that the intercom was working before you took off to claim/define that no instruction could possibly have taken place ?
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Correct he was not able to give instruction neither was he in the instructors seat. Ask anyone who has had training in a T-6/SNJ-x what seat they trained in.

The dude should get paid but he should get paid by the broker who contracted him. If he was not allowed to fly from the backseat, he was unqualified for the contracted mission of instructing in the plane, and without a 2nd class medical he was unqualified to provide a demo ride for pay.

Ask Capt Ron for the citations of violations over giving rides under the auspices of instruction when instruction is not given, history shows it's a major bust.
 
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Henning said:
Correct he was not able to give instruction neither was he in the instructors seat. Ask anyone who has had training in a T-6/SNJ-x what seat they trained in.
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Is there a definition of the 'instructors seat' for that particular (or any) aircraft ?
Is there a requirement for an intercom to give instruction in an aircraft ?
Is there a requirement for an electrical system in an aircraft that instruction is given in ?
 
Henning said:
Correct he was not able to give instruction neither was he in the instructors seat. Ask anyone who has had training in a T-6/SNJ-x what seat they trained in.

The dude should get paid but he should get paid by the broker who contracted him. If he was not allowed to fly from the backseat, he was unqualified for the contracted mission of instructing in the plane, and without a 2nd class medical he was unqualified to provide a demo ride for pay.

Ask Capt Ron for the citations of violations over giving rides under the auspices of instruction when instruction is not given, history shows it's a major bust.
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The CFI was brought in because Fearless couldn't fly from the PIC seat, per the insurance company. There were no restrictions on where the CFI sat, except that there were only 2 seats thereby causing the limitation.
 
Jaybird180 said:
The CFI was brought in because Fearless couldn't fly from the PIC seat, per the insurance company. There were no restrictions on where the CFI sat, except that there were only 2 seats thereby causing the limitation.
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There was a specific seat restriction - I was not allowed to sit in the front and that was made clear to me....not sure if it was an insurance or simply the seller's stipulation, but it was a specific stipulation.
 
weilke said:
So you are using the fact that you failed to verify that the intercom was working before you took off to claim/define that no instruction could possibly have taken place ?
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Let me clarify something:

I specifically asked for flight instruction (and while some of you have said that is outside the scope of a 'demo' flight.....it is what I requested because of the unique nature of the aircraft and while the broker was quick to point out on a few occasions - 'this is how it is done when an aviation professional is involved in the sale'......he did not have a problem with my request).

I did not get any instruction other than maybe a few tips on the ground about the aircraft. Comments like 'this is easier to land than your 170, but you have to keep it straight'....yeah no kidding. It was actually the seller himself who gave me a review of the cockpit controls/systems while the CFI was retrieving the airworthiness and registration from the IA (the documents were not in the aircraft).

My irritation wasn't about theoretical 'could of's'. It was about what actually took place.

That was it. The total extent of any 'instruction'.
 
weilke said:
Is there a requirement for an intercom to give instruction in an aircraft ?

Is there a requirement for an electrical system in an aircraft that instruction is given in ?
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Dude, this isn't a 172 or a Piper Cub where you are nut to butt with the CFI. Pretty dang big and loud airplane compared to GA trainer. There is quite a bit of distance between the back seater and the guy in front. Even if the inertia reel on the seat belts hadn't been removed on this particular airplane, I would not have been able to reach forward and tap the guy on the shoulder without removing the back stick.

As it is, I had to shout several times to take me back before he actually understood what I was saying if it helps put the situation in perspective.

So don't give me this 'intercom isn't important' BS.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just curious how one instructs without communicating....with or without an intercom???
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Hand signals? Somehow communication could take place. Like I said before you walked into a sh*te sandwich. Seems like flaws were very present from them and you with this transaction. Hopefully you learned what you needed by this experience. It only cost you $200 and your A&P's fees. inexpensive enough.
 
LearDriver said:
Hand signals? Somehow communication could take place. Like I said before you walked into a sh*te sandwich. Seems like flaws were very present from them and you with this transaction. Hopefully you learned what you needed by this experience. It only cost you $200 and your A&P's fees. inexpensive enough.
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Hand signals....get real. Just how was I supposed to effectively communicate with hand signals when he never looked back.....and the rear view mirror was broken BTW.
 
LearDriver said:
Seems like flaws were very present from them and you with this transaction.
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I am by no means perfect, but other that perhaps being overly optimistic and expecting that the airplane would be as advertised and that I would get what I requested in the deal, I don't believe I did anything wrong.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I am by no means perfect, but other that perhaps being overly optimistic and expecting that the airplane would be as advertised and that I would get what I requested in the deal, I don't believe I did anything wrong.
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Really, you wanted a ride more than you wanted to know what the real status of the aircraft was. You never go flying in something that don't know the true status of. Logbook inspection, AD research then mechanical inspection. If those two don't pan out and look like the books describe the aircraft in question then you walk. No going for a flight, you just walk at that point in time not beholding to anyone.

No flight was actually necessary anyways because as you said the aircraft didn't pass inspection. So if you had done the steps in that order you wouldn't be complaining about the $200 and the issues pertaining to it.

By the way being overly optimistic in the aircraft purchasing process will get your wallet cleaned out. Pessimistic is the way to approach it. If the books don't say it happened then the seller might as well be lying to you. It also gives you a further negotiating position.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hand signals....get real. Just how was I supposed to effectively communicate with hand signals when he never looked back.....and the rear view mirror was broken BTW.
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How in the world did all these aviators learn how to fly in open cockpit aircraft prior to the availability of intercoms and headsets ?


You see the instructors hands, it's 'your plane' , you feel a kick in the rudders it's his.
 
LearDriver said:
Really, you wanted a ride more than you wanted to know what the real status of the aircraft was. You never go flying in something that don't know the true status of. Logbook inspection, AD research then mechanical inspection. If those two don't pan out and look like the books describe the aircraft in question then you walk. No going for a flight, you just walk at that point in time not beholding to anyone.

.
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Horse$hit... Fearless wired TEN THOUSAND dollars as good faith money to move forward with the purchase.... People just looking for a ride will not go to that extent.:no::no: :nonod::rolleyes2:
 
weilke said:
How in the world did all these aviators learn how to fly in open cockpit aircraft prior to the availability of intercoms and headsets ?


You see the instructors hands, it's 'your plane' , you feel a kick in the rudders it's his.
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Just because they did it that way way back in the day doesn't mean it is the best way today when better tools are available.

But, okay, smart guy.....if that is how you want to instruct, don't you think you should be on the same page with the student before you commit to flight??? I sure do.
 
N801BH said:
Horse$hit... Fearless wired TEN THOUSAND dollars as good faith money to move forward with the purchase.... People just looking for a ride will not go to that extent.:no::no: :nonod::rolleyes2:
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Exactly. And as it is, I forfeited $150 of that 10 grand for the escrow fee.

I was 'taken for a ride'.....I was not in this to get a ride.

I have two friends who are CFIs and own T-6s. I could have flown with either and received top-notch instruction while flying it myself from the front seat.

As mentioned before I did everything I could to demonstrate that I was no mooch looking for a free or cheap thrill ride.
 
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