Failed Pre-Buy Demo Flight- Pilot Wants to be Paid

wabower said:
OOC, how was the pilot going to be paid if the demo ride went well and you bought the plane? From your earlier posts, it sounds as though the pilot was a local guy who did not incur any expense or inconvenience other than showing up at the airport. If so, $300 sounds like a hose job to me.
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If the demo flight had actually been a demo flight, I would have paid the pilot without question, whether I went forward with the purchase or not.

To give you an idea of what was going on in my mind as I shouted to him to 'take me back!':

-This is ridiculous. We cannot safely and effectively demonstrate this aircraft without proper communications.

-Since we are all here, I will go ahead and have my IA do the pre-buy and see what we see....but now I am skeptical of what we will find.

-If my IA doesn't find anything horrible, I will still consider buying the plane, but I am going to insist on a proper demonstration flight before I actually commit.

As far as demo pilot/CFI goes, he was a friend of the seller. Probably in his mid-70's. I suspect retired or semi-retired. I can't say for sure, but I didn't get the feeling he had anywhere else he needed to be.




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Fearless Tower said:
I will say this - for those that asked 'how would I feel if I had been the pilot'....well, as a commercially licensed and free lance professional pilot myself, I can honestly say that if I had been the pilot on a debacle of a demo flight as that was, I would not have asked for anything.....but that is just me. I realize there is a great disparity between CFI pay. I have seen everything from CFIs who do accelerated courses charging the equivalent of 8 hrs a day instruction whether you use it or not to CFIs who charge by just what is on the Hobbes.
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I understand that you're a freelance commercial pilot, but I'd also ask what your other forms of income are.

When I had my normal 9-5 job, I didn't care about getting paid for instruction or pilot services and I simply told people to make a donation to Cloud Nine (with suggested, but not mandatory, rates). It was tax deductible for them, and I didn't need the money, so it was a nice way of bringing in a little extra money to the non-profit while putting my certificate to work.

Now my pilot certificate is how I pay my bills. As with anything, when it becomes a job that you use to buy food, your tolerance for lack of payment significantly goes down. If the pilot was expecting to get paid a certain amount for his time (whatever that was), it should have been clearly communicated. I make a point of telling my clients what I get paid.

If I was asked to make a demo flight for one of my clients, then yes, I would expect to get paid for it. If I am helping my client sell the aircraft, then I might get paid in a commission upon sale, and therefore wouldn't necessarily expect to get paid just for the demo flight. In most cases, though, I would expect payment when services are rendered.
 
Fearless Tower said:
For an update and some previously omitted details- the broker actually only asked for $200. The written agreement (which we never actually signed because he kept having to correct it) specified that the buyer would pay for a demo pilot not to exceed $200. It was the pilot himself that initially asked for $300.

While I am still not happy about the way the demo flight went, based on the general consensus here, I told the broker that I would go ahead and pay the fee ($200) and chalk it up as a learning experience.
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You agreed $200, you pay $200. Works for me. If the CFI wants $300, that's between him and the broker who acted as his agent in the deal.
 
Ron Levy said:
You agreed $200, you pay $200. Works for me. If the CFI wants $300, that's between him and the broker who acted as his agent in the deal.
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He agreed to pay for a CFI to log time in the plane.... because of the lack of an operational intercom, that was not able to be performed... if the CFI signed his log book as instruction given then the OP owes the CFI 200 bucks... No signature = no payment.... Simple deal.... let the broker or owner pay the CFI.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
I requested a CFI. The CFI was arranged by the seller (personal friend).
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money issue aside; I assume the CFI had flown this plane many times before, since he is the personal friend of the seller. I find it strange he did not know/tell you about the inop intercom prior to the demo.



from post #9: "CFI is a friend of the seller.

Seller is like 85 and only flies the airplane with the friend aboard if you know what I mean."
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I understand that you're a freelance commercial pilot, but I'd also ask what your other forms of income are.

When I had my normal 9-5 job, I didn't care about getting paid for instruction or pilot services and I simply told people to make a donation to Cloud Nine (with suggested, but not mandatory, rates). It was tax deductible for them, and I didn't need the money, so it was a nice way of bringing in a little extra money to the non-profit while putting my certificate to work.

Now my pilot certificate is how I pay my bills. As with anything, when it becomes a job that you use to buy food, your tolerance for lack of payment significantly goes down. If the pilot was expecting to get paid a certain amount for his time (whatever that was), it should have been clearly communicated. I make a point of telling my clients what I get paid.

If I was asked to make a demo flight for one of my clients, then yes, I would expect to get paid for it. If I am helping my client sell the aircraft, then I might get paid in a commission upon sale, and therefore wouldn't necessarily expect to get paid just for the demo flight. In most cases, though, I would expect payment when services are rendered.
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Like I said, pilot and CFI pay varies greatly across the board from guys who charge the second they arrive at the FBO to guys who only charge for hobbes time and not for ground. Yes, the latter tend to do it because they just like to fly and they may have other sources of income.

But all that aside Ted, let me ask you this - if you were asked to do a demo flight like that and provide instruction in the plane and you were not able to give the client what they asked for (partly because you failed at your own responsibilities as PIC)....would you really charge them for all of your time?

I am just saying that if that was me, I'd be pretty damn embarrased and would have apologized and walked away.

I suspect that this retired dude (being a friend of the seller) wants to stick it to me because I refused to buy his buddy's plane....but that is just my gut feeling.

You could say I feel like I've been taken for a ride....literally.
 
Reminds me of our great SNJ caper. Back in the 80's, an oil/real estate guy in Abilene owned a beautiful specimen, flew in for all of Pardue's air shows at Breckenridge (BKD) where his plane was always one of the prettiest.

Word later got around that he was having some financial difficulties and that the SNJ could be "bought right." As owners of a fine 65 hp T-Craft L-2 war bird, my partner and I decided that we could "sing a little Jefferson" (Movin' on Up) so we discreetly visited the FBO where he kept the plane and received assurance that he "fixed whatever was broke and some stuff that wasn't" prior to making an offer.

Our negotiations were successful and we made a deal, but prior to closing his bank evidently got wind of the deal and the bank president, himself a war bird aficionado, stepped in and notched our deal. We were self-righteously ****ed and grumbled mightily for a number of years, especially when the banker started bringing the plane to the war bird shop in BKD (where we knew the owner quite well and would have taken it if we had prevailed) where we had to look at it frequently and think about what might have been.

Only many years later, and after the banker had sold it, did the shop owner confide that the airplane was a financial and operational disaster for the banker, that the MX records from the shop in Abilene were mostly pen-strokes only, and that his yearly MX costs were ~$45,000 during the time he owned it.

Thank you, Lord.



RotorAndWing said:
Ok.

Be very careful. Lots of junk in these because owners can afford the purchase price but can't afford the maintenance.
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RotorAndWing said:
Ok.

Be very careful. Lots of junk in these because owners can afford the purchase price but can't afford the maintenance.
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HAHA! Where were you with this advice the first time I got married?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Like I said, pilot and CFI pay varies greatly across the board from guys who charge the second they arrive at the FBO to guys who only charge for hobbes time and not for ground. Yes, the latter tend to do it because they just like to fly and they may have other sources of income.

But all that aside Ted, let me ask you this - if you were asked to do a demo flight like that and provide instruction in the plane and you were not able to give the client what they asked for (partly because you failed at your own responsibilities as PIC)....would you really charge them for all of your time?

I am just saying that if that was me, I'd be pretty damn embarrased and would have apologized and walked away.

I suspect that this retired dude (being a friend of the seller) wants to stick it to me because I refused to buy his buddy's plane....but that is just my gut feeling.

You could say I feel like I've been taken for a ride....literally.
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How did the demo pilot fail at his responsibilities?
 
LearDriver said:
How did the demo pilot fail at his responsibilities?
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You think it is okay to start up and taxi out to the active without communicating with the back seat pilot?

I don't.

He never even looked back at me to see if I was ready to go. He taxied out did a quick runup and off we went......see what I mean by feeling like I was taken for a ride?

That is simply unprofessional flying IMO. And even aside from basic expectations of a pilot flying with another pilot or pax, how do you expect to fly a demo without communicating with the buyer?
 
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Fearless Tower said:
Like I said, pilot and CFI pay varies greatly across the board from guys who charge the second they arrive at the FBO to guys who only charge for hobbes time and not for ground. Yes, the latter tend to do it because they just like to fly and they may have other sources of income.
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Yes, there's much variation. My point is that the folks who have other sources of income typically seem to be less strict about charging because they're doing it for fun. Even though it's still fun for me, I also have bills to pay.

But all that aside Ted, let me ask you this - if you were asked to do a demo flight like that and provide instruction in the plane and you were not able to give the client what they asked for (partly because you failed at your own responsibilities as PIC)....would you really charge them for all of your time?

I am just saying that if that was me, I'd be pretty damn embarrased and would have apologized and walked away.

I suspect that this retired dude (being a friend of the seller) wants to stick it to me because I refused to buy his buddy's plane....but that is just my gut feeling.

You could say I feel like I've been taken for a ride....literally.
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There are a lot of factors here that I have no way of knowing about since I wasn't there, and I also don't do things underhanded so the "sticking it to you" concept isn't what I'd do. So here's my equivalent scenario:

Bob calls me up, because he's selling his Aztec and wants me to do a demo flight for a perspective buyer. Bob is a friend of mine. He asks me to do it because I'm an MEI and the guy wants to be able to log instruction. I tell him I'm glad to do it, outline my rates, and say I don't care who pays it so long as it gets paid. Bob and I shake hands, and I show up at the time he prescribes. We BS for a bit until the buyer shows up, and I don't charge for the BS time.

Buyer shows up, my clock starts, and we get going on looking at the plane. We hop in, fire up the engines, and get going. Turns out there's an intercom problem that I don't know about because I've never flown Bob's Aztec before. I ask the buyer if he's ok with this, he says no, we return to base. Or he says yes, and we fly. Rather irrelevant. We get back, we're done, the clock is shut off. Total time is 2 hours, which in my case would be $100.

Buyer decides that Bob's Aztec isn't as nice as Bob said it was and leaves. I don't get a chance to sign the buyer's logbook for whatever reason.

I ask Bob where my $100 is. Bob doesn't want to pay me, and calls you up and says I still want my money for the time. Bob is simply trying to get the money out of you so he doesn't have to pay me himself. I don't care where the check comes from, so long as it's legit and my bank will accept it.

You say you feel you've been taken for a ride, and that's something only you can decide. I test flew a Cessna 421 a few years ago we were looking at. We hadn't discussed rates for anything, the guy seemed like a gentleman. Turns out the plane was a bad example. Radios and electrical system didn't function much at all (no intercom either), engines were timed out, same for props. Then the owner wanted top dollar because he said it was a low-time example.

I offered to fill their tanks (which were about half full) and gladly pay the pilot for his time flying with me. They politely declined both, but I wouldn't have complained or felt the least bit put off about paying.
 
airguy said:
No legitimate CFI or demo-pilot would take up a prospective student/buyer without having comms to discuss the flight as it progresses, that's BS (I don't mean you telling a BS story - I mean BS behavior).
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I did some practice in the cub with POA member whifferdill for the first time in weeks last Saturday. There was a gusty crosswind from the right, my ~3 hrs time in taildraggers were not up to the task. It was extremely frustrating that the battery powered intercom was dying. Eric was trying to explain things and give me tips, I just couldn't hear him. We only flew about 45 minutes, I would have liked to have done a few more laps around the pattern but the dying intercom made it very frustrating for both of us. Of course this is a different situation, we didn't know the intercom was going to die, and eric has graciously spent a lot of his time teaching me about the cub free of charge. (thanks !)

I feel your pain. I'd be upset too if I paid for a CFI to take me up in a plane with no intercom. If the CFI was independent and didn't know about the intercom, i'd cut the lesson short and pay him for whatever time we flew. If he knew the intercom did not work prior to the flight, and did not disclose it, i'd be ****ed. You paid for someone familiar with the airplane to let you fly it, talk you through power settings and stalls, and tell you about performance or quirks, etc. Sure its a pre-buy, but obviously you are looking to see how the plane is operated, not go for a ride. This did not happen due to a lack of an intercom. Also, if he told you about this beforehand, you could have borrowed (or he could have) a portable intercom.
 
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dell30rb said:
I feel your pain. I'd be upset too if I paid for a CFI to take me up in a plane with no intercom. If the CFI was independent and didn't know about the intercom, i'd cut the lesson short and pay him for whatever time we flew.
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Your dispute would be with the aircraft provider, not the CFI. You made your deal for the CFI agreeing for a set price. The CFI is owned for his/her time regardless, and it ain't just the "wheels up" time, either.
 
N801BH said:
He agreed to pay for a CFI to log time in the plane.... because of the lack of an operational intercom, that was not able to be performed... if the CFI signed his log book as instruction given then the OP owes the CFI 200 bucks... No signature = no payment.... Simple deal.... let the broker or owner pay the CFI.
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Yep, broker eats this one, he misrepresented, he provided the CFI who was not able to instruct and had him perform an illegal demonstration flight, this f-up is on the broker square and simple. I wouldn't give him a dime and I'd read the instructor the riot act as well for the audacity for charging when he could not fulfill the service contract.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your dispute would be with the aircraft provider, not the CFI. You made your deal for the CFI agreeing for a set price. The CFI is owned for his/her time regardless, and it ain't just the "wheels up" time, either.
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Well, in my case quoted above, the agreed upon rate is an hourly rate. I'd cut the lesson short, and pay him by his hourly rate for whatever time that was. If it meant the usual 1.5 hour lesson is cut to a half hour (handshake, fire up the plane, intercom not working) then that's what i'll pay him for. If I owned the plane, I might kick him some extra money for his gas/time driving to the airport if I thought that was appropriate.

In the OP's case, with a $200 fixed price, kind of a grey area here. If the CFI and owner of the plane knew the intercom did not work before hand and did not mention this to me, and it was so bad that you cut the lesson short. I don't think i'd be happy about handing over $200 either. I'd probably do it though. But now if the guy wants $300...
 
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I'm somewhat confused about the role of the intercom. For years people taught without them. Did the T-6 even come with one?
 
jtheune said:
I'm somewhat confused about the role of the intercom. For years people taught without them. Did the T-6 even come with one?
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Yes, the T-6's originally had intercoms (it is a 600 HP R-1340....just a wee bit louder than a J-3 cub).....and removable back sticks which instructors occasionally removed to thump the student in the front seat, which is something I seriously considered doing.

But even though folks used to instruct in airplanes without intercoms back in the day, doesn't mean that it is a good idea to conduct an aircraft demonstration when it is installed and doesn't work.

Have you ever slow flighted a T-6.....stalled it? It isn't a dangerous aircraft, but it has some quirks. Would you really want to be in the front seat without being able to effectively communicate with the guy in the back on the controls? In a tandem plane as big as the T-6, you can't exactly reach back and sucker punch the other pilot if he starts fighting you on the controls.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Your dispute would be with the aircraft provider, not the CFI.
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My issue IS actually more with the CFI here. The more I have thought about this, the more I don't think he should have continued past the runup without resolving the intercom.

That is really what ticks me off when we consider professionalism. As I said last night, I've sucked it up and told the broker I would pay the $200.

But I still am ticked about it and I'm ticked at the CFI. The seller recognized the issue and declined to be compensated for the gas.
 
dell30rb said:
Well, in my case quoted above, the agreed upon rate is an hourly rate. I'd cut the lesson short, and pay him by his hourly rate for whatever time that was.
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If you book me for a whole day, and then cut things short after half an hour for your own reasons, you'll be paying me for a good bit more than half an hour.

If it meant the usual 1.5 hour lesson is cut to a half hour (handshake, fire up the plane, intercom not working) then that's what i'll pay him for. If I owned the plane, I might kick him some extra money for his gas/time driving to the airport if I thought that was appropriate.
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Again, if I have to travel to your location, you will have agreed in advance to pay my travel expenses, and there's no refund on that once I make the trip.

In the OP's case, with a $200 fixed price, kind of a grey area here. If the CFI and owner of the plane knew the intercom did not work before hand and did not mention this to me, and it was so bad that you cut the lesson short. I don't think i'd be happy about handing over $200 either. I'd probably do it though. But now if the guy wants $300...
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If the CFI in the OP's case wants $300, that's between the CFI and the broker. The deal between the broker and the buyer was $200, period, and that's what I think FT owes for that part of the deal -- and only what he owes. The other $100 is the brokers's problem, not FT's concern.
 
Fearless Tower said:
My issue IS actually more with the CFI here. The more I have thought about this, the more I don't think he should have continued past the runup without resolving the intercom.
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That would not change the $200 you owe for his time, since you agreed to the price and had him called out, he showed, and you are the one who cut it short.
 
Ron Levy said:
That would not change the $200 you owe for his time, since you agreed to the price and had him called out, he showed, and you are the one who cut it short.
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Perhaps......Like I said, I agreed to pay, but I still think it is a jerk move on his part to ask.
 
In the future discuss in detail who gets paid how much for what and when...
Then send the seller an email, or registered letter, detailing what you verbally agreed to...
Pay the demo pilot... You were late and he waited for you... Dunno if $300 is the right amount though...
How late were you?
How much of his day did you use up?
How much does he get for his time at his job?
Send him a letter asking those questions and come to an agreement since an amount was not pre-agreed.. I'm thinking 150-200 is more in the ballpark...
 
Fearless Tower said:
You think it is okay to start up and taxi out to the active without communicating with the back seat pilot?

I don't.

He never even looked back at me to see if I was ready to go. He taxied out did a quick runup and off we went......see what I mean by feeling like I was taken for a ride?

That is simply unprofessional flying IMO. And even aside from basic expectations of a pilot flying with another pilot or pax, how do you expect to fly a demo without communicating with the buyer?
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I think you walked into a sh*te sandwich with this one. Learn from it and move on to the next plane. This airplane didn't happen to be in Houston did it?
 
Regardless of the planes sale or not, the CFI did a job, he deserves to be paid.

I have never done stalls and slow flight for a demo, nor do I give instruction. Its a flight to demonstrate the plane flies, and to show the condition of the engine in actual conditions.

Its HIS issue with his medical. Trying to withold payment based on that is BS. Its not illegal for you to provide compensation, its illegal for him, to accept it. But thats on him.

His medical class didn't seem to bother anyone when you wanted instruction.



This is part of the buying process. Its a cost that the buyer pays unless they take delivery. It prevents tire kickers from joy riding toys they have no intention in buying. Instruction, maneuvers, full PPL rides come when you own the plane.


We test drove a Citation Mustang on a short business trip, then bought a Phenom. 6 months after we got a bill from Cessna for the trip. Its how it works.
 
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Ron Levy said:
If you book me for a whole day, and then cut things short after half an hour for your own reasons, you'll be paying me for a good bit more than half an hour.

Again, if I have to travel to your location, you will have agreed in advance to pay my travel expenses, and there's no refund on that once I make the trip.

If the CFI in the OP's case wants $300, that's between the CFI and the broker. The deal between the broker and the buyer was $200, period, and that's what I think FT owes for that part of the deal -- and only what he owes. The other $100 is the brokers's problem, not FT's concern.
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No one was booked for a whole day or traveled hundreds of miles here.

The op is mad because he wired ten grand and said he would pay for a ride with a cfi. Instead he got the guy's buddy (not an active cfi, no appropriate medical) who didn't do a good job. And the guy asks for more than the agreed upon $200, when legally he cannot even accept compensation?
 
dell30rb said:
No one was booked for a whole day or traveled hundreds of miles here.

The op is mad because he wired ten grand and said he would pay for a ride with a cfi. Instead he got the guy's buddy (not an active cfi, no appropriate medical) who didn't do a good job. And the guy asks for more than the agreed upon $200, when legally he cannot even accept compensation?
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That's pretty much it in a nutshell..:idea::yesnod:
 
n20junkie said:
Regardless of the planes sale or not, the CFI did a job, he deserves to be paid.

I have never done stalls and slow flight for a demo, nor do I give instruction. Its a flight to demonstrate the plane flies, and to show the condition of the engine in actual conditions.

Its HIS issue with his medical. Trying to withold payment based on that is BS. Its not illegal for you to provide compensation, its illegal for him, to accept it. But thats on him.

His medical class didn't seem to bother anyone when you wanted instruction.



This is part of the buying process. Its a cost that the buyer pays unless they take delivery. It prevents tire kickers from joy riding toys they have no intention in buying. Instruction, maneuvers, full PPL rides come when you own the plane.


We test drove a Citation Mustang on a short business trip, then bought a Phenom. 6 months after we got a bill from Cessna for the trip. Its how it works.
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Dude, your a little late to the thread. It may or may not be how a typical demo flight goes, but it is what I ASKED for.

I paid my IA well for his time and troubles and didn't flinch at all when he gave me the bill. Why, because he performed a service that I asked for. This guy did not. As I said before you commented. I have already sent the check in....but I still think he is a douchebag.
 
dell30rb said:
No one was booked for a whole day or traveled hundreds of miles here.

The op is mad because he wired ten grand and said he would pay for a ride with a cfi. Instead he got the guy's buddy (not an active cfi, no appropriate medical) who didn't do a good job. And the guy asks for more than the agreed upon $200, when legally he cannot even accept compensation?
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Exactly. I was not being a tire kicker here. If I wanted a ride in a back seat of a T-6, I could have done that for half of what I spent that day in two different T-6s in my local area.
 
What did the CFI do wrong aside from continue when the intercom was found to be inop?
 
Who did the walk around/preflight? Did you follow the CFI around? Did he talk about what he was looking at? Did he say anything about start-up procedures? Instruction can be given on the ground also. CFIs only need a third class medical so why the "inappropriate" medical comment? Without an intercom the instruction might not have been very good, but it was still instruction. Did he sign off on your logbook? You may not click with a particular instructor and that is fine--you pay him off and find someone else.
 
n20junkie said:
Its HIS issue with his medical. Trying to withold payment based on that is BS. Its not illegal for you to provide compensation, its illegal for him, to accept it. But thats on him.
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I disagree. Professionals jump through the hoops to maintain a current medical.

I'm not advocating you stiff a CFI just because you don't like him or thought he didn't do a great job. I've worked with one that I simply did not want to continue lessons with, but because they showed up and did their thing, I paid them in full for their time. I never checked their credentials, I had no reason to believe anything was amiss. In fact i've never checked any of my instructors credentials, they all act professionally.

If someone represents themselves as a CFI, and expects me to pay them for instruction, I expect they have a valid certificate and 2nd class medical. If the person is so unprofessional that I felt the need to check their credentials, and it turns out they are not legally qualified to act as a CFI, i'd take that as a great reason not to pay them.
 
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I hired a CFI once for an IPC. We stopped for gas, and went in for a cup of coffee. He started a long conversation with a Hawker pilot and tried repeatedly to sell him some twin time while I watched. I wasn't in a big hurry so I didn't mind sitting on the ground for over an hour. We flew back, completed the IPC, and I received a bill for $50 per hour from the time he left his driveway.

I paid him exactly what he asked, never said a word, and never used him again.

I would pay him what he asks and move on. Aviation is a small world, having a rep as a non-payer/back trader isn't worth a couple of hundred dollars to me.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I would pay him what he asks and move on. Aviation is a small world, having a rep as a non-payer/back trader isn't worth a couple of hundred dollars to me.
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I agree with this as well.. $200 and move on, barring any serious aggravating factors. It seems the OP has already decided that the combined factors (10 grand being wired, CFI apparently was not the best, CFI or buyer did not care the intercom did not work, did not have medical, demanded more than the agreed upon amount) is not aggravating enough to warrant the hassle of withholding payment.
 
Witmo said:
CFIs only need a third class medical so why the "inappropriate" medical comment?
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You need a 2nd class medical to exercise the privileges of the commercial or CFI rating and get paid to fly or instruct.
 
First off I didn't know about the time limit for thread entry........

Sounds like a contract of some written agreement should have been used. Before the flight was accomplished. We have one side ofnthe story and its filled with holes.

Really this sounds like a big load of sour grapes and excuses not to pay up. You start the flight with questions about capabilities of the pilot and what is expected of the flight. You don't fly then use them as reasons not to pay. Its like eating the whole steak then complaining it wasn't cooked properly and you won't pay.

When the intercom didn't work, just how did you think any of your goals would be accomplished?
 
Fearless Tower said:
You think it is okay to start up and taxi out to the active without communicating with the back seat pilot?

I don't.

He never even looked back at me to see if I was ready to go. He taxied out did a quick runup and off we went......see what I mean by feeling like I was taken for a ride?

That is simply unprofessional flying IMO. And even aside from basic expectations of a pilot flying with another pilot or pax, how do you expect to fly a demo without communicating with the buyer?
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dell30rb said:
You need a 2nd class medical to exercise the privileges of the commercial or CFI rating and get paid to fly or instruct.
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Actually you only need a third class and in some situations you don't need a current medical at all.
 
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