FAA Medical Predicament (18v and Alcohol)

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I am in a complicated situation and would like to have some input on it.

I am currently in my mid-20s. When I was 18 in college, I got inebriated to the point where a friend called the ambulance. The police showed up as well and gave me a citation for ‘Minor in Possession/Consumption of Alcohol’. The police were unable to conduct a BAC test on me, but I was able to find the tests that the hospital did and it was a 0.18. After said event, I participated in the city’s Pretrial Diversion Program where the charges got dropped after the successful completion of a 6 hour long alcohol class that taught about the dangers of alcohol consumption.

A couple years later, I decided to become a pilot and get my first class medical. Unfortunately, I thought the 18v* question didn’t apply to me as I misunderstood it as incidents that involved motor vehicles. I went to my AME and successfully got my medical, but didn’t answer the medical application accurately.

I am now looking to renew my first class medical, but now see that I should’ve clicked ‘yes’ on 18v. I have contacted AOPA legal about it and the attorney suggested in sending a letter to the FAA about amending my first (and only) FAA medical. After collecting most of the documents concerning the charge and medical records, I am concerned about the FAA writing back to me that I would have to participate in HIMS since the reported BAC at the hospital was greater than a 0.15.

I understand my mistake and should’ve been more careful in reading forms involving the government. It was only a one time mistake in an otherwise clean record.



18v* (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.
 
You do need to correct the record. You need to consult with a good HIMS AME on the best way ahead.

Hopefully @bbchien will drop by and provide his experienced opinion. If not, you can engage him through his website, aeromedicaldoc dot com.

His consulting fee is incredibly affordable and will incredibly valuable advice.
 
Well, you'll need a HIMS level psychiatry eval for a BAC of >=0.15
There is no way you can get that eval in time if you write in now. I'd suggest you

(1) STOP FLYING,NOW
(2) get the evaluation NOW and send it in with the letter.
(3) Since the FAA is playing hardball, undertand that you might NOT have the opportunity to surrender your certificate if they choose to begin an "investigation" into lying to the agency, which is how they see it.

You will need the HIMs psychiatrist evaluation. Period. What you are trying to avoid is an "investigation" that results in revocation of all certificates (PILOT as well) for lying to the FAA, and if found guilty (Lots of attorney $$s, hte HIMS psychiatrist is cheaper ($4K by comparison)) you end up with a strike against 61.153. Look it up. it they wnat to they can make a felony (class 4) stick, but the would have to try to prove it more than convenient neglect.

So critical to all of that: Do you still drink EVEN ONE BIT? It matters. Continued consumption of substance after an adverse event is one of the hallmarks of "FAA defined dependency". And, can you substantiate it? Dependency, leads to REHAB and full HIMS.

B
 
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I’m sure somebody wil correct me, but I have read the instructions (not just the question) numerous time, and it looks like 18v only is for driving offenses.
 
Right, but he has a hospital encounter unreported. That’s a huge footprint to hide behind the curtain.
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m sure somebody wil correct me, but I have read the instructions (not just the question) numerous time, and it looks like 18v only is for driving offenses.
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I don’t see a driving offense limitation in the question. What language am I missing? Here’s what I see…

18v* (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.

That “or” makes for a very broad question that goes beyond driving and beyond drugs and alcohol.
 
The problem from the aviator's point of view is that obfuscation of the truth can be made into a class 4 felony should the agency choose to do so. They did that to Martha Stewart (DOJ, no tax evasion). One of my airmen did that (unbenounced to me) and he's now a full up priority for the CAMI attorney and this is not going to turn out well for him. He's in the period just prior to the emergency revocation of all certificates.

The application is NOT about "report what you want".
Answer honestly- "Liars not welcome". 99% of the time there is a way. Lying is not one of them.
 
I find it ironic that “the way” is just as illegal as the lying…

And they ain’t got NO plausible deniability. None.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don’t see a driving offense limitation in the question. What language am I missing? Here’s what I see…

18v* (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.

That “or” makes for a very broad question that goes beyond driving and beyond drugs and alcohol.
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Mid life nailed it. Re-read what the op posted. He was charged with mip, he was required to attend an educational class to get the charges dropped. That is exactly what 18v covers.
 
bbchien said:
The problem from the aviator's point of view is that obfuscation of the truth can be made into a class 4 felony should the agency choose to do so. They did that to Martha Stewart (DOJ, no tax evasion). One of my airmen did that (unbenounced to me) and he's now a full up priority for the CAMI attorney and this is not going to turn out well for him. He's in the period just prior to the emergency revocation of all certificates.
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Martha Stewart was factually different, although one of the charges applies to false statements on a medical application as well.

Revocation of all certificates is SOP. Fortunately for most pilots, it takes something extra special for the FAA to make a DOJ referral for prosecution under 18 U.S.C. §1001.
 
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unsafervguy said:
Mid life nailed it. Re-read what the op posted. He was charged with mip, he was required to attend an educational class to get the charges dropped. That is exactly what 18v covers.
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As I read it, had the OP not gone to the class and taken the ticket (citation) for MIP, then 18v would not have applied because the MIP citation was unrelated to driving privileges. Since he took the class to avoid a ticket at all, it does apply. Am I misreading this somehow?
 
Kevin Eggert said:
As I read it, had the OP not gone to the class and taken the ticket (citation) for MIP, then 18v would not have applied because the MIP citation was unrelated to driving privileges. Since he took the class to avoid a ticket at all, it does apply. Am I misreading this somehow?
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the or is very important two letter word. any arrest or conviction of ANY offense that results in an order for an educational or rehabilitation program makes 18v a yes. the second part does not even have to pertain to alcohol or drugs at all. if the state requires you to attend drivers education, anger management or a whole slew of educational programs, 18v applies. this is from the AOPA legal protection program:

  1. You were arrested for, convicted of, or subject to an administrative action based on any offense that resulted in attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program (even if the offense had nothing to do with alcohol or drugs). Examples cited by the FAA include, but are not limited to, anger management programs, drug or alcohol treatment programs, safe driving courses, etc.
 
Kevin Eggert said:
As I read it, had the OP not gone to the class and taken the ticket (citation) for MIP, then 18v would not have applied because the MIP citation was unrelated to driving privileges. Since he took the class to avoid a ticket at all, it does apply. Am I misreading this somehow?
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Not misreading as much as not getting the full picture. We don’t know the answer, since we don’t know what state or which statute was violated. Your question assumes a state where conviction of MIP means only a fine and doesn’t include orders for education/treatment/rehab/license suspension. I’d guess a survey of these laws would indicate that most do. In that case, same result.

But yes, if we are dealing with a naked “fine only” MIP-tolerant state, community, and judge, taking the conviction might be a good strategy. I’ve used it in other situations.
 
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unsafervguy said:
the or is very important two letter word. any arrest or conviction of ANY offense that results in an order for an educational or rehabilitation program makes 18v a yes. the second part does not even have to pertain to alcohol or drugs at all. if the state requires you to attend drivers education, anger management or a whole slew of educational programs, 18v applies. this is from the AOPA legal protection program:

  1. You were arrested for, convicted of, or subject to an administrative action based on any offense that resulted in attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program (even if the offense had nothing to do with alcohol or drugs). Examples cited by the FAA include, but are not limited to, anger management programs, drug or alcohol treatment programs, safe driving courses, etc.
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Wow- so going to a driving school to reduce an aggravated speeding ticket or avoid points on your license would apply? I don't think many people have correctly interpreted this item if thats the case.
 
Tokirbymd said:
Wow- so going to a driving school to reduce an aggravated speeding ticket or avoid points on your license would apply?
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Yep. That's pretty much a situation I was involved in. It was a long time ago but, as I recall, it was a careless driving charge. The DA offered and the defendant's lawyer tried to sell the defendant a great deal - school and dismissal. The defendant was pretty savvy (and was just starting a flying job), and tried to explain to the attorney why the deal wasn't that great. The defendant called me and I called their lawyer to explain why it wasn't. The DA was happy to collect the speeding fine.

For better or worse, I think the reason for the breadth of the question is to capture a wide range of activities which might otherwise slide by with negotiations, plea deals, charging errors, and other legal maneuvering. The downside, of course is that you wind up having to report some things that are nonsense. @bbchien or one of our other experts in that area ca bring us up to date but I doubt a "yes" with "took a class to avoid points for going 40 in a 35 mile zone" would raise much of a problem.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yep. That's pretty much a situation I was involved in. It was a long time ago but, as I recall, it was a careless driving charge. The DA offered and the defendant's lawyer tried to sell the defendant a great deal - school and dismissal. The defendant was pretty savvy (and was just starting a flying job), and tried to explain to the attorney why the deal wasn't that great. The defendant called me and I called their lawyer to explain why it wasn't. The DA was happy to collect the speeding fine.

For better or worse, I think the reason for the breadth of the question is to capture a wide range of activities which might otherwise slide by with negotiations, plea deals, charging errors, and other legal maneuvering. The downside, of course is that you wind up having to report some things that are nonsense. @bbchien or one of our other experts in that area ca bring us up to date but I doubt a "yes" with "took a class to avoid points for going 40 in a 35 mile zone" would raise much of a problem.
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So would an AME be able to issue on site if this was just a driving school without having to submit to OKC? How much leeway do they have? Ex could they issue for an MIP that required a class to dismiss?
 
I would be reversed so fast....if I did that....he has to report it and there is a 0.18 associated with the event. So it goes to a HIMs psychiatrist at his expense. And he'd better be able to show several months of proven (Pee-in-the-cup) absteinence IAW FAA testing stds prior to that or the HIMS psychiatrist is simply going to write "We recommend abstinence" for $4,500. And what happens at the evaluation depends entirely on what's in the OP's head, e.g between his ears.

The aviation definitions of Abuse, and of "Dependency, dry" are not DSM5. Not what you think they are. Use the attached, send it in and get to a HIMS AME who will equip a HIMS psychiatrist with what you need to even get the appointment. The HIMS AME list is on the FAA website, any of us can do this.
 

Attachments

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bbchien said:
I would be reversed so fast....if I did that....he has to report it and there is a 0.18 associated with the event. So it oges to a HIMs psychiatrists at his expense. And he'd better be able to show severlal month sof proven (Pee-in-the-cup) absteinence iaw FAA testing stds prior to that or the HIMS psyhchiatrist is simply going to write "We recommend abstinece" for $4,500. And what happens at the evaluation depends entirely on what's in the OP's head, e.g between his ears.

The aviation defintiions of Abuse, and of "Dependnecy, dry" are not DSM5. Not what you think they are. Use the attached, send it in and get to a HIMS AME who will equip a HIMS psychiatrist with what you need to even get the appointment. The HIMS AME list is on the FAA website, any of us can do this.
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Bruce, a follow-up question. I'm curious. Take it out of the alcohol/drug realm.

You get a "yes" to 18v because the pilot chose "attendance at an educational ... program," and the records show it was, as a different post describes. a speeding ticket in which the pilot elected driving school rather than take the points against their insurance.

I'm assuming that if the police and court records support this, that it's an "issue," but is there something the guidance that says so? And what would the AME write in the report? Or is it as simple as, you never get to the DWI/Alcohol/etc Disposition Table since there is no drug/alcohol event?
 
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Attendance at an education program if it does not involve alcohol does not trigger 18v. If the pilot makes this claim it behooves the AME to verify it (Read the arrest report).

But, a pretrial diversion that does involve any alcohol at all...that does. it was in the pulldowns for 18v last round I applied, about a year ago.
 
bbchien said:
Attendance at an education program if it does not involve alcohol does not trigger 18v. If the pilot makes this claim it behooves the AME to verify it (Read the arrest report).

But, a pretrial diversion that does involve any alcohol at all...that does. it was in the pulldowns for 18v last round I applied, about a year ago.
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doc, i would like to see something stating that. from the instructions for question 18, it states the following:

educational safe driving program for multiple speeding arrests and/or convictions, etc"

that indicates to me that any educational program ordered by the court would trigger it, if you you have data from the FAA showing otherwise i would be interested in seeing it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You get a "yes" to 18v because the pilot chose "attendance at an educational ... program," and the records show it was, as a different post describes. a speeding ticket in which the pilot elected driving school rather than take the points against their insurance.
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How many people get arrested for merely speeding?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Where does it say there has to be an arrest?
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Receiving a ticket, for a misdemeanor infraction, is an arrest. You are just being allowed to depart the scene with a “notice to appear” (ticket with a court date) or the option to pay (plead guilty) versus appear in court in person.
 
unsafervguy said:
notice it says conviction. paying a ticket is pleading guilty and therefor a conviction. it may or may not be a criminal conviction, but it is a conviction.
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A deferred prosecution does not result in a conviction as long as you comply the conditions of the deferral.
 
Lindberg said:
A deferred prosecution does not result in a conviction as long as you comply the conditions of the deferral.
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You are correct in some places, but you are describing it as something universal. In my experience it is not only state specific but often county, district, and even judge specific. And, of course, those "conditions" might well trigger 18v independently.
 
Mike0125 said:
Receiving a ticket, for a misdemeanor infraction, is an arrest. You are just being allowed to depart the scene with a “notice to appear” (ticket with a court date) or the option to pay (plead guilty) versus appear in court in person.
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That may be true, but the MedXpress User Guide seems to disagree with you. That the only traffic-related stops they care about in 18v are those whoch involve suspicion for a DWI:

"Arrest" means being detained or taken into custody by any law enforcement or military authority for any reason related to a driving stop for suspected driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.​

But my "Why" is about why and arrest is necessary.

18.v. History of (2) conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.​

For the "educational or rehabilitation program" piece, the User Guide says:

Examples of educational or rehabilitation programs include, but are not limited to, anger management program(s), drug or alcohol treatment program(s), safe driving course(s), etc. List the type of educational or rehabilitation program you were required to attend as part of a criminal, civil, or military action, the entity that required you to attend, and the date(s) and place(s) of your attendance.​

I'm just reading the words on the page. Perhaps someone else does, but I can't see the requirement for an arrest if the deferred disposition of the speeding case by a court or administrative body (whether or not accompanied by a finding of guilt) involves a probationary period which includes a driver education class requirement.
 
The FAA wants to know about anything that smells like a DUI whether or not you plead down, divert, or otherwise get it dismissed. It matters not even if you are the administrator. Ask Randy. It triggers the check to see if you are indeed abusing alcohol/drugs. You can weasel around this at your own peril.
 
flyingron said:
The FAA wants to know about anything that smells like a DUI whether or not you plead down, divert, or otherwise get it dismissed. It matters not even if you are the administrator. Ask Randy. It triggers the check to see if you are indeed abusing alcohol/drugs. You can weasel around this at your own peril.
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Yes, but you have to enjoy the parsing attempts that conveniently leave things out.

I know you know this, but before the NTSB upheld the FAA's position on expungements, there were several NTSB cases where certificates were revoked when pilots answered "no" and justified it based on an expungement...when there was no expungement; the pilot just thought so.
 
Gadzooks everybody here is an attorney.....whether they are or not!
This is vintage POA c_ap.
"I interpret this the way I want to see it."....generally does not work out well for the pilot.
 
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Mike0125 said:
Receiving a ticket, for a misdemeanor infraction, is an arrest. You are just being allowed to depart the scene with a “notice to appear” (ticket with a court date) or the option to pay (plead guilty) versus appear in court in person.
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That's not an arrest. That's a criminal summons. Not sure if all criminal misdemeanor citations allow payment without an appearance by the accused and/or counsel. Keep in mind, even speeding 20+ or 25+ or 30+ miles over the speed limit is a crime. Seldom is anyone arrested for that crime alone, even if they are cited. There are plenty of other trivial crimes.
 
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