Expunged Record and Becoming A Pilot??

Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by Jordan Hooker, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. Volitation

    Volitation Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you’re serious about this, consult with Dr. Chien, tell him the unvarnished truth, and follow his instructions to the letter. If it can be done, he can help you do it.

    My experience is that the good Doc will move heaven and earth to help if you’re honest and willing to do the work that’s required on your end. If you’re trying to fudge, even just a little, you’re wasting both the Doc’s and your time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
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  2. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Every time I see Volitation's avatar it warms me a tad. For he has seen the light, verily. And he appreciates the glory of the skies and now has that privilege restored to him and that makes the eternal pile of documentation that we wade through every day worth it. He earned it. Thank you Mr. S :)
     
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  3. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    He came here asking for advice and was given advice that was peppered with more than a small amount of talking down to as well many assumptions about lack of aptitude and existing knowledge. Put bluntly, those responding talked to him as though he were an idiot. And in response, he has been nothing but gracious and polite which is something I'm not sure I would have the patience for if it were me.
     
  4. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    How was my post (#11 in this thread) "addressing him like he was an idiot"? I don't appreciate you broad brushing me into such a group.

    If you don't like the way this forum is done, you can always delete us from your bookmarks and find other corners of the inter webs to haunt.
     
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  5. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Personally I think many posts are a bit harsh, including Dr Bruce’s. It seems like no matter how contrite the poster is, it’s never good enough.

    Sheesh.... give the guy a chance. Seems like a reasonable question that if that if he already went through a formal rehab, he’s wondering if that counts.
     
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  6. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Wasn't talking about you. Thanks for informing me that I'm free to leave though, I wouldn't have been aware of that otherwise.
     
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  7. Volitation

    Volitation Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thank YOU Dr. C!

    Though I have to confess- I’m working on my Instrument now, today’s lesson was partial panel unusual attitudes.

    It wasn’t gratitude that I was feeling. :confused:
     
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  8. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Those get easier over time.... Especially if you yell "YEEEEE HAWWWWW" when recovering from the nose low steep bank one.

    If you ever want to compare notes on what you're doing and how you're going, ping me and we will meet for food/drinks.
     
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  9. Volitation

    Volitation Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The one that really gets me is when he gets the horn chirping going into what feels an accelerated stall in a steep climbing turn, then has me raise my head and open my eyes just as the nose is starting to drop and it's picking up speed. It took doing a couple of those to block out what I had just heard from the horn and register when the airspeed was telling me. (Note to self: that thing can get going really fast, really fast!)

    We need to get together, though as you might guess from Bruce' and my comments, my drinks will be more along the sweet tea variety. Lol.
     
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  10. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    Then the answer to “have you ever” must be “yes” then. This “expungement” concept is pretty damn useless.
     
  11. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

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    Pretty much.
     
  12. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Sounds good... name day/night and place and let's make it happen!
     
  13. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Expungement is primarily for private employment and to remove some state disabilities.
     
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  14. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    How does it help in private employment? Isn’t the question still “have you ever”?
     
  15. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

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  16. Brad Smith

    Brad Smith Line Up and Wait

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    How do the airlines look at one's previous history of abuse or criminal record? When jobs are thin will they go for the candidate will a clean background or someone with a tainted history? I would query a few airline hiring bosses to see what their standards are before setting my heart on flying for the airlines. 1500 or more hours in the air is a long time only to find out that there is built-in prejudice against certain candidates.
    My buddy wanted to be a cop but no department would hire him because of a single non-violent arrest. He was pulled over and the car was searched revealing a firearm under the seat. That ended his chances at becoming a cop. He was never in trouble before or since the arrest. The violation was more than 10 years before he started applying for the officer job. After applying and being turned down at multiple agencies, the HR guy told him he was wasting his time as no department would touch him.
     
  17. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    In most cases it's illegal for them to ask about expunged convictions or events that didn't result in a conviction.
     
  18. 35 AoA

    35 AoA Cleared for Takeoff

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    Pretty sure the majors have thousands of applicants at any point in time who don't have criminal records. Odds of them choosing a dude with multiple convictions......impossible to say, but i'd deem it unlikely. Continue to build your case for yourself. I'm sure it is not impossible, but this is going to be an uphill battle when it comes to interviews or even apps (if you are being honest and admitting to "expunged" charges, which they will eventually discover). Most importantly, congrats on your 5 years of sobriety. That is way more important than a theoretical idea of a second career.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Expunction statutes generally specifically permit a no answer.

    It is not about the "have you ever?" question at all. That was just someone else's idea of some non-legal explanation. It is much more about the ability of a state law to force its application to the federal government. (And, as @flyingron said, they also tend to prohibit the question from being asked - can a state prohibit the feds?)There are decent legal arguments on both sides of that issue, which is not limited to the FAA, but the question has not been resolved. The FAA is pretty clear it feels entitled to the information (as do some other federal agencies).

    A year or so ago, I was thinking of writing an article on the subject of the applicability of state expunction laws to federal licensing and employment since I'm interested in it from two completely different angles. All preliminary research told me was, there were not enough cases out there to make it worthwhile.
     
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  20. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    So... sounds like there would be a reasonable legal argument to answer “no” to the question on an FAA medical application.

    You may not win the argument, but they’d probably have a hard time prosecuting you for answering “no” if it’s that much of a grey area.
     
  21. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It sounds like a heck of a gamble to me.
     
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  22. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    You do not want to lose that particular argument; the FAA will assume you were lying.
     
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  23. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    It was pointed out upthread that the medical form has instructions for what to do in the case of expungement:

    If the record of a conviction has been expunged, state the date that the record was expunged and the court that ordered the expunction.
    So it doesn't sound like there is a reasonable legal argument to answer no.
     
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  24. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The state usually can't enjoin the feds, but we're not talking about the feds here, we're talking about a company that is headquartered somewhere and the interviews are conducted somewhere and the states involved very much have a say.

    Further, while the feds don't bar asking about convictions they do bar asking about other instances and they further bar discriminating against those with convictions unless you have some compelling reason why it is an issue. Other than those things on the list that will prevent SIDA access, the airlines are better suited legally to let the FAA worry about if the convictions preclude a plot from operating.
     
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  25. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    It's a gamble. Since the FAA has specifically said to provide the information, I can see three potential consequences if they find out.
    1. Revoke your medical. That would be pretty standard.
    2. Revoke all your airman certificates. Since the instructions say to provide it, that would be very likely.
    3. Refer the case for criminal prosecution. That's remote unless they see a pattern or feel it was pretty egregious.
    To argue the grey area, you'd likely be going all the way into the federal court system, assuming you were interested in taking that risk.

    OTOH, you can treat it as a medical issue and see someone like Bruce to learn what can be done to get you through successfully if you disclose.

    If I had a catch phrase for my answer to the folks who have consulted with me on medical questions like this, it would be:

    You have a medical issue. The last thing you want it to become is a legal issue.
     
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  26. Jim_R

    Jim_R Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    It depends on how much you're willing to lose. But it's not a legal question, in the criminal justice sense. Nobody's going to "prosecute" you--you're not going to get a day in court, and you're not risking jail. But if you're trying to make a career out of aviation, and the FAA pulls your cert so that door slams closed on you...that's a pretty big penalty, too.

    Dealing with the FAA on stuff like this is not the same as dealing with the criminal justice system. The rules are different, your "rights" are different, and the risk/reward equation is different. Few laypeople understand the details, so few laypeople are prepared to successfully navigate that system. Thus the chorus of recommendations for the OP to get help from the right AME.

    If you can't get the "legal system" paradigm out of your head, then consider this comparison: When dealing with a complicated legal matter, you want a good lawyer working your case. When dealing with a complicated FAA medical matter, you want a good AME working your case. In neither situation is it a good idea for a layperson to try to navigate the wilderness alone.
     
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  27. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    Yes. Agreed. When I said “unlikely to be prosecuted” I meant criminally. I assume the FAA would likely pull all your certs.