Experiences with the FAA?

SbestCFII

SbestCFII

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CFII Scott - The IFR Coach
There was a good article in Flying this month about the new compliance philosophy with regards to the FAA (as opposed to the enforcement philosophy). I know that lots of pilots crack on the FAA, but who has actually had a personal, horrible experience with the FAA?

I've been flying over 26 years, instructing for over 7 years. I've had my student records audited once (last year), my initial CFI check-ride was with an FAA inspector, and once had a letter of inquiry from the FAA about an issue that became a non-event. I can't think of one issue that I have ever had with the FAA that caused me any degree of undue stress or concern.

What type of experiences has anyone else had?
 
SbestCFII said:
There was a good article in Flying this month about the new compliance philosophy with regards to the FAA (as opposed to the enforcement philosophy). I know that lots of pilots crack on the FAA, but who has actually had a personal, horrible experience with the FAA?

I've been flying over 26 years, instructing for over 7 years. I've had my student records audited once (last year), my initial CFI check-ride was with an FAA inspector, and once had a letter of inquiry from the FAA about an issue that became a non-event. I can't think of one issue that I have ever had with the FAA that caused me any degree of undue stress or concern.

What type of experiences has anyone else had?
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What prompted them to request your student records?
 
Routine audit.
 
Bob Hoover isn't with us anymore, so we can't ask him; we might ask a few of the folks here who were swept up in the "sleep apnea" nonsense, though?

My only personal FAA experience that was truly negative was at an airport with a displaced threshold - short version, he insisted I landed short, from his viewpoint 1,500 feet away (I didn't). He was about 7.5 - 8.0 on the obnoxious scale; purposely rude, attempting to be overbearing. I think/think he may have had a liquid lunch. I ended the conversation abruptly. He made some threats as I walked off, but nothing came of it.

Individually, I don't think they (FAA) have a worse ratio of azzhats than anyone else; most of the rank-and-file are rational enough, with the usual 10% being less than stellar. The ones at the point of the spear seem very good (ATC), and it gradually goes downhill from there (FSDO, etc.). By the time you get to policy making and corporate culture, they rate a C- or D+.
 
Read an interesting article yesterday in a news mag about a guy going to a FAAST (?) lecture on some subject. Seems he was distinctly disappointed in that every other sentence was about consequences as opposed to pleasant, informative instruction.
I had the same unpleasant experience at one given at a local airport, supposedly about runway markings. Same story, every other sentence was a threat and I was really disgusted with the gusto and gleam in their eyes. No joke, several commented on it.
The dumbest part was they actually gave a runway marking quiz at the start and none of 30+ people got better than 50%. Their theory that they had simplified things was bs to us.
Point being, they could have actually taught us something that evening but instead seemed to enjoy the power trip and enforcement potential for violations. Since we didn't have to sign in or otherwise ID ourselves - several of us left.
Flame on about our whole group's ignorance of oddball runway signage that they admitted was not common - but we were damn sure responsible for knowing or ELSE!
 
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I had one bad experience. Not going to say much about it. That particular FAA individual came into the flight planning room, slammed his hand on the table, stuck his finger in my face and proceeded to yell in my face. It went worse from there.

The good experiences were with FAA people that were friendly and wanted to be helpful. Basically come to me with a smile and good attitude and I will do the same.
 
I've never been the target of an enforcement action, but other than some nit picky stuff going on in aircraft registraiton, MOST of my dealings with the FAA have been congenial. When I was getting my DC-3 clearance (I was based at VKX on 9/11, the Dulles FSDO was real helpful when I just walked in to get something resolved).

Of late, I got a ferry permit in about two hours with the Charlotte FSDO all done by email (I sent down the application and a copy of the log book page with the mechanic's sign off and they faxed back the permit). The FAA was also very helpful on my recent off-field landing. NTSB, not so much. Of course, the Virginia State Police bent over backward to help. Now there is service to the public.
 
In both my experiences they were nice friendly folks. Only bad thing was the threatening sounding form letter they sent at the beginning.
 
CFI ride, gold seal add on audit thing, and one busy body complaint about low flying which went no where.

Can't really complain I guess, the guy who I got my initial CFI with was a great dude actually.


I'd imagine the FAA is like any other business, they have some great folks working for them, some OK folks, and some folks who should be working for them.
 
All my experiences with the FAA have been good, over several decades. They have always been nice, cordial and helpful. Either I was very lucky, or that's a representation of the norm there.
At one point I needed help from the Canadian "FAA" (for a ferry permit), and they were just as nice and helpful.
 
You only remember the bad ones.
My copilot & I were ripped a new one by an ABQ center controller who threatened to call the FBI, DEA, DHS, CBP over a perceived operational issue. I can tell you is attitude was nothing like the softer, gentler approach they promise today. The investigator said we had done nothing wrong, as I originally thought. No penalty, not even a warning - nada.
I wanted to pursue the controller for his behavior but was told to drop it, he knew our N-number.
Since then I purchased AOPA's legal assistance plan. I still think this guy had some kind of mental problem.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
You only remember the bad ones.
My copilot & I were ripped a new one by an ABQ center controller who threatened to call the FBI, DEA, DHS, CBP over a perceived operational issue. I can tell you is attitude was nothing like the softer, gentler approach they promise today. The investigator said we had done nothing wrong, as I originally thought. No penalty, not even a warning - nada.
I wanted to pursue the controller for his behavior but was told to drop it, he knew our N-number.
Since then I purchased AOPA's legal assistance plan. I still think this guy had some kind of mental problem.
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Has that AOPA plan ever actually prevented anything major for anyone, seems like prepaid legal is often not worth too much.
 
Goofy said:
Read an interesting article yesterday in a news mag about a guy going to a FAAST (?) lecture on some subject. Seems he was distinctly disappointed in that every other sentence was about consequences as opposed to pleasant, informative instruction.
I had the same unpleasant experience at one given at a local airport, supposedly about runway markings. Same story, every other sentence was a threat and I was really disgusted with the gusto and gleam in their eyes. No joke, several commented on it.
The dumbest part was they actually gave a runway marking quiz at the start and none of 30+ people got better than 50%. Their theory that they had simplified things was bs to us.
Point being, they could have actually taught us something that evening but instead seemed to enjoy the power trip and enforcement potential for violations. Since we didn't have to sign in or otherwise ID ourselves - several of us left.
Flame on about our whole group's ignorance of oddball runway signage that they admitted was not common - but we were damn sure responsible for knowing or ELSE!
Click to expand...

Reminds of an airport I am aware of that the FAA has insisted on putting a sign up for a runway crossing in a place that the pilots at the airport has insisted was dangerous. Since putting the sign up at least two aircraft have taxied into the sign.

Brian
 
SbestCFII said:
There was a good article in Flying this month about the new compliance philosophy with regards to the FAA (as opposed to the enforcement philosophy).
Click to expand...

Haven't read the article but was it because since Harrison Ford didn't receive any enforcement now they're possibly a kindler, gentler FAA?

I guess they're kinda like the IRS. Silent in your life for the most part, but if you ever have to deal with them, it can be total hell.
 
On the other hand, as posted previously:
I did have a very pleasant experience with some local FSDO guys that, I guess, were just out driving around looking for something to get them out of the office. They asked about my plane and before I realized who they were, as they had not introduced themselves yet, I was answering questions to the feds. After inspecting my paperwork they were kind enough to update mine to the new version that minimized Phase I again for major changes. Was very helpful and they were great about it. I was lucky. Have heard some horror stories about others in that office.
 
Two very different experiences.

My Student certificate timed out so I got a fresh Third Class and went to the local FSDO to get a fresh Student Certificate. Guy was a 100% *******.

I had to do a 709 ride. I was TERRIFIED going into it. Guy was as nice as can be, it was over in a heart beat. I couldn't believe I was so stressed about it.
 
My problem with the FAA is the incredible bureaucracy. By and large the people are nice enough, but they are just inefficient. When calling the FAA, I've never seen so many layers of people, and the average salary is $112K. They proudly resist changes that would benefit aviation, and their unions resist any attempts to monitor their performance or effectiveness of their programs. It seems to be a bureaucracy run amok. After 9/11, Congress mandated the FAA to develop and implement pilot certificates with photo identification... I guess 15 years just isn't enough time.

And why do they have such short office hours? And why are appointments required to get into a FSDO? And why the security?
 
CT4ME said:
When calling the FAA, I've never seen so many layers of people, and the average salary is $112K.
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Where did you get that figure? The majority of folks at the FSDO get nowhere near that. Sounds like you are looking at FAA salaries inside the beltway.
 
CT4ME said:
My problem with the FAA is the incredible bureaucracy. By and large the people are nice enough, but they are just inefficient.
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I would agree with you there. They are almost (but not quite as bad as the Coast Guard). You can talk to two different people at a given FSDO and get two different answers. Go to another FSDO and get a third vastly different opinion.

I still think the Medical folks in OKC are by far the worst.
 
All of my interactions with the FAA have ended well.

Some have been a little heated in the middle.
 
James331 said:
Has that AOPA plan ever actually prevented anything major for anyone, seems like prepaid legal is often not worth too much.
Click to expand...

In my case above, I had a immensely valued friend who is also an attorney and while he does not practice solely aviation law, he is intimately familiar with it. So I had excellent support and advice on what to say or not to say.
Having a skilled person in your court during these times is priceless for relieving anxiety and giving direction, I can tell you that.
I could have continued relying on my friend if a future incident occurred; but that is not fair - he would likely continue to refuse payment - so I decided to get the AOPA plan.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Where did you get that figure? The majority of folks at the FSDO get nowhere near that. Sounds like you are looking at FAA salaries inside the beltway.
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Just Google "FAA employee salaries".... it's everywhere, including the FAA site. According to Federalpay.org: "The Federal Aviation Administration had 45,521 employees in 2015 with an average pay (base salary + bonus) of $112,441.24. The most common occupation was air traffic control, followed by transportation specialist. The most common payscale is Faa Core Compensation Plan". ATC goes $56K-$182K. According to Glassdoor: The typical FAA Aviation Safety Inspector salary is $112,153. Aviation Safety Inspector salaries at FAA can range from $79,000-$153,452.
 
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CT4ME said:
Just Google "FAA employee salaries".... it's everywhere, including the FAA site. According to Federalpay.org: "The Federal Aviation Administration had 45,521 employees in 2015 with an average pay (base salary + bonus) of $112,441.24. The most common occupation was air traffic control, followed by transportation specialist. The most common payscale is Faa Core Compensation Plan". ATC goes $56K-$182K
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If that is including ATC, then yes, that number makes sense.
 
The psychology experts here tell me that I have an "anti-authority attitude" because I got "spanked by the FAA" some time in the past. But, quite frankly, I don't have any recollection of any such incident. I must have suppressed the memory.
 
I had some issues with my local FSDO a few years ago.....but those guys are since retired, so I'm hopeful things are changing for the better.
 
I forgot about my first certificate, it was so long ago. My temporary private pilot certificate was close to expiring. Fortunately the GADO (this gives you an idea how long ago it was) was close to my house and they apparently had this as a regular problem because they had a rubber stamp that they put on the back and signed giving me another 90 days or whatever. Turns out my certificate showed up a couple of days later.

I was also on the board of the flying club at work. Since I lived closest to the GADO it was my job to pick up the 16mm safety films for our club meetings.
 
I bought my airplane out of annual, so it required a ferry permit to get it home. It was on LI, so the NY FSDO was involved. They made sure every t was crossed and i dotted, paperwork organized to a fare-thee-well before they would issue the permit. From my perspective it was great, the seller was none too happy though.
 
One happy story on dealing with FSDO.

I was doing IOE with a new hire in a C-207. We did a scheduled mail run to Shungnak, Ak. On the landing roll, that flaps would not come up. Usually a quick fix on the back of the flap switch. Only this time I was not able to get the flaps up.

Now Shungnak makes BFE look like downtown NYC. One little "convenience" store in town that is only open from about 3pm until 7pm. We hiked into town to use the phone and called back to the home base for help. The mechanic faxed us a form to fill out for a ferry permit. Ok, there is only one fax machine in town and it is the school. We got the form, filled it out and faxed it to the FSDO in Fairbanks. Within about 15 minutes, the FSDO faxed a ferry permit. One stipulation was NO PASSENGERS.

So I called the FSDO to explain the problem. No problem he said, and within 15 minutes we got another ferry permit stipulating necessary crew only.

So with our ferry permit we were off for home.

Sidenote: Since Shungnak is in BFE, and if I was by myself I would have taken off and flown home with A/S in the white arc only to find that after landing at the home airport that the flaps won't come up. But as it was we were happy and the FAA was happy that we actually had a maintenance problem that was written up and dealt with in the order it should be done.
 
I had one experience about 5 years ago that I've written about before, a followup to a precautionary landing due to a misbehaving fuel gauge. Not a horror show by any means, but quite unpleasant. A reminder that even when everything appears to be okay, some of their inspectors are still looking for reasons to bring enforcement action. In the end, even though nothing happened, I was left with the feeling that I really don't want to deal with these people any more than I absolutely have to.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I bought my airplane out of annual, so it required a ferry permit to get it home. It was on LI, so the NY FSDO was involved. They made sure every t was crossed and i dotted, paperwork organized to a fare-thee-well before they would issue the permit. From my perspective it was great, the seller was none too happy though.
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As I was said, I was pleasantly surprised for the ferry permit I got last September. Scanned the mechanics sign-off on the log book page and the appliaction and sent them to the CLT FSDO. They emailed back my permit in a couple of hours.
 
I've had a couple interactions with the charting office when I found errors on plates, and a trip to OKC for the altitude chamber training. Without exception, every person I've dealt with at the FAA has been excellent. In fact, the OKC trip was really awesome, those guys were top notch.
 
I do remember they screwed the pooch on the DC ADIZ, pre SFRA and FRZ; they intended one thing, IRT radio calls, didn't communicate that to pilots correctly, or even to all the controllers. Heard a heated exchange, regarding radio contact being sufficient to enter, and the controller disagreeing. Turns out the pilot was correct, but the controller was following the "guidance" issued. Only time I ever heard a pilot tell ATC to "violate me", then refuse to take the phone number down. Likely he had deep pockets, a law practice, or knew tge rules cold. Didn't hear anymore about it. . .
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The psychology experts here tell me that I have an "anti-authority attitude" because I got "spanked by the FAA" some time in the past. But, quite frankly, I don't have any recollection of any such incident. I must have suppressed the memory.
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Ever Google "anti authority hazardous attitude" to try to find a non-FAA reference?
 
I haven't had any bad experiences with FAA. I have friends who have. I'm pretty sure it's not my stellar personality, so it must be luck. LOL.
 
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