Expectations for Instructors and Schedules

TheTraveler

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TheTraveler
I have had a difficult time getting my schedule to mesh well with instructors. It's not just one...it's multiple.

The first one assigned to me works only Monday-Friday 0800-1600. The second one is a little better, but starts later than I'd like to, and only works part of the weekend. Another one still doesn't work weekends, but is able to work a bit later in the evenings.

My expectation was that being a flight instructor, odd and awkward hours would not be a surprise, and really expected. This is going under the assumption that students wanting to learn to fly had regular jobs, so weekends, early mornings, late evenings would all be pretty standard hours. The school doesn't even open until 0800 on weekends, and it seems like every time I request a start time earlier than that, it is a bit of a hassle and they are doing me a favor.

I sent a note off to another school on the field to see what their times are like, but I am not going to get my hopes up. I've also got a decent amount of credit at the current flight school to burn off from my deposit, so I feel like I've got this set aside, but cannot use it.

For me, the perfect times to fly would be Saturday and Sunday, around the window of 0500-1000.

Were my expectations wrong, or is this really how a lot of flight schools and instructors operate?
 
If you make noises about wanting your deposit back they might be more cooperative...

Friend of mine has it worse. Seems every time he schedules a lesson his instructor cancels because he has to fly a charter instead. Never take flying lessons from an FBO whose name includes the word "charter"...
 
I wouldn't expect a change in the flight school's business hours, but I agree that unless the instructors are booked fairly solid all day, there should be a little more flexibility in the instructor schedule.
 
Some schools have 'set' business hours and they don't deviate from them. Smaller operations will be much easier to deal with. The place I trained at had several CFI's, some who were not on the schedule, but that allowed for more options if your primary instructor was out or couldn't fly when you wanted to. Even if it was beyond business hours, they'd still come out and open up to fly.

I've found (and it's not always true) that flight schools who are based on towered fields tend to be less flexible than those who operate from a non-towered field.

Your CFI should bend a little more to fit your schedule, if they don't seem too interested, find someone else who does.
 
Talk to your CFI. They might be willing to fly outside normal hours. Need to ask them.
Could you also find a free range CFI and rent a plane?
 
Talk to your CFI. They might be willing to fly outside normal hours. Need to ask them.
Could you also find a free range CFI and rent a plane?

Have spoken with them, as they are the ones I'm trying to schedule with. As far as I am aware, they are not required to abide by the school's hours, and are permitted to instruct outside the normal operating hours. They just choose not to work during the times I am available.

I am not aware of any free agent CFI's around, the only ones I know are at the schools locally.
 
My experience has been exactly the opposite. Instructors like to fly at weird times, especially holidays, and even request it. But I use part time instructors with day jobs. Maybe that's your solution.
 
Sounds like you should spend your money at a different school.
 
I had the same problem. I ended up contacting the flight school director, and asking for an instructor that at least had a reasonable chance to be able to schedule weekend, after hours or before on weekday, and Monday's.
After a few tries he set me up with one who is available when I am more or less.

If it were me (and it was actually) I don't see it as demanding, but if my school couldn't set me up with someone that could fly when I could, I'd check out other schools, and with my new knowledge that this can be a problem, one of my first questions would be about instructors weekend flying.

As you say, I'd have thought it was a normal situation, working folk that can only fly after hours on weekdays or on weekends. In my school though I see they have a number of younger folk that apparently don't work, can fly weekdays.
 
Sounds like you need a flight instructor/school that works better with your schedule. At my school, we made our own hours. If we wanted to work 1 day a week, we could. If we wanted to fly all 7 days, we could. Most of the guys were part time and only a few of us would be available 5-6 days a week.
 
I have had a difficult time getting my schedule to mesh well with instructors. It's not just one...it's multiple.

The first one assigned to me works only Monday-Friday 0800-1600. The second one is a little better, but starts later than I'd like to, and only works part of the weekend. Another one still doesn't work weekends, but is able to work a bit later in the evenings.

My expectation was that being a flight instructor, odd and awkward hours would not be a surprise, and really expected. This is going under the assumption that students wanting to learn to fly had regular jobs, so weekends, early mornings, late evenings would all be pretty standard hours. The school doesn't even open until 0800 on weekends, and it seems like every time I request a start time earlier than that, it is a bit of a hassle and they are doing me a favor.

I sent a note off to another school on the field to see what their times are like, but I am not going to get my hopes up. I've also got a decent amount of credit at the current flight school to burn off from my deposit, so I feel like I've got this set aside, but cannot use it.

For me, the perfect times to fly would be Saturday and Sunday, around the window of 0500-1000.

Were my expectations wrong, or is this really how a lot of flight schools and instructors operate?
Unless it is a professional pilot training operation, I would expect a lot more flexibility, especially on the weekends. A flying lesson at 5 a.m. is certainly an out-of-the-ordinary request, but as they say, there's a hand for every glove. So keep looking. And if that school can't meet your schedule, is all for a refund of your deposit.
 
Sounds like you need a freelance CFI, I'd ask around her and the other forums with your location and needs.
 
Just a guess, but the CFI's are probably enjoying their last chance at "normal" work schedules before they go off to the crazy life in charter or feeders.

Solution as stated above is likely to go with an independent or smaller school. And yes, burn off that credit before you do anything.

And when they tell you it's time to write another check you'll have some leverage to say "... about the scheduling issues." Might get more help with it when they are chasing your cash instead of holding it.
 
If the instructor only works from 8-4, how does he do night flights?

I was wondering the same thing!

My school, although sometimes scheduling is tight, has been pretty dang flexible with the days and times. While the CFI assigned to me prefers not to work Sunday, he said he would if I needed it (I haven't asked him to). And I think they start as early as 6:30, my earliest flight has been 7:30am.

I'm going to start leaning more towards the mid-mornings, as the spring winds are already starting here in the afternoons in NM. Had to scrub my last lesson due to gusts higher than we cared for, so just did some grounds lesson time instead.
 
I was wondering the same thing!

My school, although sometimes scheduling is tight, has been pretty dang flexible with the days and times. While the CFI assigned to me prefers not to work Sunday, he said he would if I needed it (I haven't asked him to). And I think they start as early as 6:30, my earliest flight has been 7:30am.

I'm going to start leaning more towards the mid-mornings, as the spring winds are already starting here in the afternoons in NM. Had to scrub my last lesson due to gusts higher than we cared for, so just did some grounds lesson time instead.
Hmmm. You say the CFI was assigned to you. You're the customer. You should be able to choose your own CFI.
 
If the instructor only works from 8-4, how does he do night flights?

It's not a majority of the flying, someone just does a one off late night flight, or they put you with another CFI who doesn't mind, I used to do like 90% of all the night flights at the last school I worked for.
 
More bitching about my IFR stuff...

I'm convinced part of the problem, maybe a big part, was having to go when the instructor was available rather than when I wanted. We met at the airport after work. That may work for some people, but I get up at 0530 to (try to) beat the madness that is getting into the place I work. If we don't start training until 1730, that's a long day already. I wanted to fly on the weekends, but the instructor wasn't available.

I'm paying him. We go when I want. You can't always get this, but it's going to be a priority from now on. If you -have- a choice (and some don't), definitely try to make it happen. Flying can be difficult enough without having something as simple as going at a bad time be a factor. Lesson learned.
 
I am a freelance instructor, and while I am not currently associated with any school, I have been in the past. With both schools I worked for, I set my own schedule. In all cases it is a part time job for me, and therefore is after work and on weekends. But while my students are important to me and I try to bend over backward to help, I also have a family that I like spending time with and other commitments.

So, if my schedule and your desired schedule don't match, it's nothing personal, I'll try to help you find another instructor. If you came to me with a request to fly regularly at 5 AM, I'd tell you sorry, but I'm not interested. Because I'm really not, and as it's a part time job, I don't need the money that badly. Or the hours, for that matter.

Will I stay up until 11 PM during the summer to get in a night flight with a Private student? Of course. Will I stay up until 11 PM to fly regularly 2 or 3 times a week (say for instrument training) with someone who gets off work at 7 or 8 PM? No, sorry.

Maybe I am a unique circumstance, but it seems to me that we all decide what we're willing to do for money and what we're not. For me, I usually won't fly Friday nights, and won't fly on Saturday. Does that prevent me from taking on some students? I'm sure it does, but that's family time and is important to me. But on the contrary, I will fly all day Sunday when many instructors won't. When I meet a new student for the first time, I lay out my schedule. If that works for you, great, if not, then I wish you well. No hard feelings, but if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
 
Schedule is something that should be discussed before the first flight. Keep in. I do most CFIs can't live on CFI salary as a sole income, so they have to get other jobs.
 
When I instructed full time, I set my own hours with some up front restrictions. I will fly early on Sunday morning but from about 9 AM to about 12:30 was absolutely out. I attend church and would not waiver but that is my choice and I was always up front about it. I had students complain and my boss knew before I took the job. I guess I am not as sympathetic to peoples schedules because instructors have lives too. I look at it like I cannot expect my Dr. to meet me on my schedule so I must be flexible and go when he is in the office.
One of my last places had one student that wanted to fly twice a day two days a week...at 6 AM and 6 PM and after I finished the backlog of students they had, small country airport, this was ALL the flying I had. I got paid $5/hour (a LONG time ago) had a wife and a child and worked in a maintenance shop in between. My last paycheck was $ 75 for two weeks. And the student wanted to know why I would go fly a charter despite having him scheduled? I would call him as early as possible and cancel. I even flew for free with him to make it up but he complained to my boss. I told the boss that it was fine but I would not finish his flying because he went behind my back and tried to get me in trouble. The boss said you have to fly when they want to and I said your right...find another instructor.
It is called MONEY! We are all prostitutes...we are just haggling about the price.
 
When I instructed full time, I set my own hours with some up front restrictions. I will fly early on Sunday morning but from about 9 AM to about 12:30 was absolutely out. I attend church and would not waiver but that is my choice and I was always up front about it. I had students complain and my boss knew before I took the job. I guess I am not as sympathetic to peoples schedules because instructors have lives too. I look at it like I cannot expect my Dr. to meet me on my schedule so I must be flexible and go when he is in the office.
One of my last places had one student that wanted to fly twice a day two days a week...at 6 AM and 6 PM and after I finished the backlog of students they had, small country airport, this was ALL the flying I had. I got paid $5/hour (a LONG time ago) had a wife and a child and worked in a maintenance shop in between. My last paycheck was $ 75 for two weeks. And the student wanted to know why I would go fly a charter despite having him scheduled? I would call him as early as possible and cancel. I even flew for free with him to make it up but he complained to my boss. I told the boss that it was fine but I would not finish his flying because he went behind my back and tried to get me in trouble. The boss said you have to fly when they want to and I said your right...find another instructor.
It is called MONEY! We are all prostitutes...we are just haggling about the price.
Same for me. I told my students I was off limits every Sunday until 2pm due to church. Pretty much every other day I was available. I still gave my students 6.5 days a week so I don't think they were too upset!
 
As an instructor, I took Sunday mornings off as well for the same reason. I also took off all day Monday because I needed to go to the Piggly Wiggly as well as do laundry. Nights were as needed.
 
My expectation was that being a flight instructor, odd and awkward hours would not be a surprise, and really expected. This is going under the assumption that students wanting to learn to fly had regular jobs, so weekends, early mornings, late evenings would all be pretty standard hours. The school doesn't even open until 0800 on weekends, and it seems like every time I request a start time earlier than that, it is a bit of a hassle and they are doing me a favor.
If most CFIs' students have regular jobs, that means they are probably teaching those students ~1600-0000. Most of those CFIs are not going to be willing to come in at 0500-1000 the next morning. The ones who do will be coming in extremely fatigued.

That said, CFIs are flexible people. If they know you have an interest in meeting every morning on Saturdays and Sundays from 0500 to 1000 and are willing to pay them for all of that time, you can bet that most flight school instructors would jump at that opportunity. Having guaranteed hours is a luxury in this business.
 
Lots of good stuff here. Thanks for all the great feedback.

I certainly sympathize with instructors, recognize they have families, and to each is own on how they work. I don't expect anyone to work a 24 hour shift. My question was more along the lines of if my expectations were off track in thinking that there would be at least an instructor or two willing to take early mornings on the weekend.

Agreed, the schedule needs to match prior to getting things rolling. My frustration is a bit different. I communicated the hours I'd like to fly when signing up, and I was met with "Oh, that won't be a problem!" It obviously is a problem.

When I speak about going and looking for other instructors, or ask "If you're not available, or him, or him, I s there ANYone available for Saturday and Sunday morning?" I'm met with "Oh, you don't want to take too many instructors. It's not good to have too many instructors. You'll get (confused, off track, behind on time,...). It's my $. I'm not throwing it away, but if I need to have multiple instructors and spend a little time pre-flight to explain what I've done and what I need, I'll do it if that is what it takes to get up.

I have reached out to another CFI (a 4th) from my current flight school, and also contacted a second flight school. They have been fairly positive responses so far in that "Well, we don't usually fly until 0800, but we could probably start at 0600 or so if you wanted to." That's a good compromise to me. Here's to hoping it works out.
 
You want an instructor to show up to work at 5am on a weekend for $20/hour, good luck.
 
This thread makes me oddly happy, but I know it doesn't help the OP unless he was local. When I get the certs done and back settled into the day job full time again, I'll match the typical "weekend warrior" schedule pretty easily.

Haven't completely figured out what or where I'll be able to teach in yet, but schedule-wise I'll be able to dedicate most weeknights, and weekends to students the majority of the time.

I've been pushing it a bit with the workplace being a part-timer for so long but if there's enough students they may or may not be willing to continue to be flexible with my hours there, it'll just be that I'll want/need to do full time hours in the IT job for a little while to meet some other fiscal goals this year. Maybe they'll let me continue to be somewhat flexible -- I don't know. Right now it sounds like (because we let someone go) that they'd like me around a bit more and a couple of folks need to take some vacation time who are a little burnt out, so I can go hold down the IT fort for a bit.

But anyway, for the OP... look around for independent CFIs with day jobs like yourself. We're "out here". We probably suck at marketing because one or maybe two students is a full up serious commitment for a part-timer. Ask the DPEs in the area. They'll know the instructors who a) are weekend warriors and b) who send them properly prepped and trained students. They're not technically supposed to show any partiality toward anyone, so be polite how you phrase the question -- they'll be willing to discuss names as long as they're helping answer a specific need (scheduling) and probably give you a few names and let you decide.

Most of the independents I've talked to, the schools send folks who are "walk ups" to their full timers and independents promise not to snipe students away from the full timers as well as don't usually get students "assigned" in any sort of rotation. The worry there is the full timers need to eat so they get the lion's share of any business that walks in the front door, and independents find their own students.

The CFI I ended up using for my "Oh dang it, I have plenty of spins but no spin endorsement because those didn't exist back in the day," was an independent who had a reputation for making himself quickly available for aerobatic/spin training flights in a local club's Citabria or Decathlon, as well as tailwheel instruction. My CFI called him at 3PM one day, and we were out flying at 7AM the following morning. He's in real estate for his day job. We even have that business card from him in case we ever need a realtor for anything. I've got a realtor I like, but I also like putting bread on aviator's tables, so I'd probably give him a shot if we were doing any real estate stuff. (He's also apparently a member at my shooting range, so I should probably call him up and go shooting sometime too. Ha.)

Talk it around with folks. You'll usually turn up an independent under a rock somewhere who wouldn't mind having their "next" student lined up and has an off-hours airplane habit.

This is also how @jesse and I met and ended up doing my Instrument a while back. He said, "If you want to come to Nebraska we could get that thing knocked out." You can find that whole story written up here in an archive thread, but we flew from evening until midnight and on some nights later, for a week. By the end, even this night owl was getting a little fatigued, but it was a fun experience. I wouldn't change how I got that done back then at all. I wouldn't have been able to do it any other way with my schedule I had back then.

Good luck finding someone. There's people out there who will and can do oddball schedules.
 
I am a freelance instructor, and while I am not currently associated with any school, I have been in the past. With both schools I worked for, I set my own schedule. In all cases it is a part time job for me, and therefore is after work and on weekends. But while my students are important to me and I try to bend over backward to help, I also have a family that I like spending time with and other commitments.

So, if my schedule and your desired schedule don't match, it's nothing personal, I'll try to help you find another instructor. If you came to me with a request to fly regularly at 5 AM, I'd tell you sorry, but I'm not interested. Because I'm really not, and as it's a part time job, I don't need the money that badly. Or the hours, for that matter.

Will I stay up until 11 PM during the summer to get in a night flight with a Private student? Of course. Will I stay up until 11 PM to fly regularly 2 or 3 times a week (say for instrument training) with someone who gets off work at 7 or 8 PM? No, sorry.

Maybe I am a unique circumstance, but it seems to me that we all decide what we're willing to do for money and what we're not. For me, I usually won't fly Friday nights, and won't fly on Saturday. Does that prevent me from taking on some students? I'm sure it does, but that's family time and is important to me. But on the contrary, I will fly all day Sunday when many instructors won't. When I meet a new student for the first time, I lay out my schedule. If that works for you, great, if not, then I wish you well. No hard feelings, but if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

From the other side of the equation. Going in first time as a student I pretty much just assumed that the lions share of instruction happened on the weekends, and just wasn't sure about other times, like evenings and early morning on weekdays. I also didn't know that it is most optimal to fly in the morning or evening for turbulence.

I didn't realize that there are a number of people either without jobs, or night jobs, or whatever so while not the lions share, a decent number of folk actually do take lessons weekdays during the day. I assume their instructors for some reason are available also and don't work normal jobs.

I found out pretty quickly too, CFI's (at least here, through the club I'm in) don't make very much money.
I actually fealt I benefitted from briefings (up to an hour or so) before the flight. I found out that different instructors handle this differently. I expected to pay for the briefing time since it is their time.

As a working man, I just don't have the option of flying on weekdays (except Monday's) normally during business hours. I can fly weekends and Monday's so it was no demand on my part that an instructor be available when I am, but it just plain wouldn't work if my instructor most of the time was not available when I can be. It isn't a complaint, it just doesn't work if we can only find common time once every two weeks I won't make progress.
I'm flying out of Oslo, Norway. One huge plus is the long, long daylight hours in summer. We can fly pretty late mid summer, at some times of summer sun barely goes down, but we have the opposite proble in winter. Mid winter it's only light a few hours mid day,and weather is more unpredictable.

In my case, my first instructor was fantastic as far as availability, and he did the best job I've experienced with briefing before the flight, and debriefing after. He charged for that time too and I was happy with it.

But it turned out his day job flying survey ended up taking more time than he expected and he had to drop instruction. I then got another instructor, but he couldn't fly most weekends, and even if he could he never knew for sure until thurs. or Friday. I also didn't feel like he was thorough enough, or that interested in teaching.
So I had to ask for another. I asked for someone that mostly might be available on weekends.

He is a really excellent pilot, flies acrobatic for fun and competition, was trained in the Air Force here, and for a time I was worried he was too good and maybe expected too much too soon, but revised this and think he is doing it right. But he doesn't take pay for preflight briefing, and seems not to want to spend a lot of time on theory or what we will be doing, how it works, etc. on the ground.

This puts me in s slight dilemma as I really know I benefitted from getting the theory and asking questions, checking my knowledge for mistakes on the ground before getting up there. Different style here.

That said, I totally appreciate him practically donating his time, he really doesn't need the little money that CFIs get and he is generous and loves flying and teaching I think.

He intimidates me a little though. It was a more natural experience for me with the first instructor. It fit me maybe a little better. Sometimes I feel (we are around the same age, but he is expert and I am novice) like I'm back with my dad who could be kind of sharp in tone, and dismissive of my dumb questions.

Anyway, I do thnk the OP is expecting a LOT with wanting 5 a.m. Lessons. Unless of course he finds an instructor that is one of those up early raring to go guys...but I wouldn't expect or really even suggest such early lessons.

I'm very lucky to have the instructor I have, he also seems to be available a lot of the same times I can fly and he is an excellent pilot so I'm happy with this.
 
This thread makes me oddly happy, but I know it doesn't help the OP unless he was local. When I get the certs done and back settled into the day job full time again, I'll match the typical "weekend warrior" schedule pretty easily.

Haven't completely figured out what or where I'll be able to teach in yet, but schedule-wise I'll be able to dedicate most weeknights, and weekends to students the majority of the time.

I've been pushing it a bit with the workplace being a part-timer for so long but if there's enough students they may or may not be willing to continue to be flexible with my hours there, it'll just be that I'll want/need to do full time hours in the IT job for a little while to meet some other fiscal goals this year. Maybe they'll let me continue to be somewhat flexible -- I don't know. Right now it sounds like (because we let someone go) that they'd like me around a bit more and a couple of folks need to take some vacation time who are a little burnt out, so I can go hold down the IT fort for a bit.

But anyway, for the OP... look around for independent CFIs with day jobs like yourself. We're "out here". We probably suck at marketing because one or maybe two students is a full up serious commitment for a part-timer. Ask the DPEs in the area. They'll know the instructors who a) are weekend warriors and b) who send them properly prepped and trained students. They're not technically supposed to show any partiality toward anyone, so be polite how you phrase the question -- they'll be willing to discuss names as long as they're helping answer a specific need (scheduling) and probably give you a few names and let you decide.

Most of the independents I've talked to, the schools send folks who are "walk ups" to their full timers and independents promise not to snipe students away from the full timers as well as don't usually get students "assigned" in any sort of rotation. The worry there is the full timers need to eat so they get the lion's share of any business that walks in the front door, and independents find their own students.

The CFI I ended up using for my "Oh dang it, I have plenty of spins but no spin endorsement because those didn't exist back in the day," was an independent who had a reputation for making himself quickly available for aerobatic/spin training flights in a local club's Citabria or Decathlon, as well as tailwheel instruction. My CFI called him at 3PM one day, and we were out flying at 7AM the following morning. He's in real estate for his day job. We even have that business card from him in case we ever need a realtor for anything. I've got a realtor I like, but I also like putting bread on aviator's tables, so I'd probably give him a shot if we were doing any real estate stuff. (He's also apparently a member at my shooting range, so I should probably call him up and go shooting sometime too. Ha.)

Talk it around with folks. You'll usually turn up an independent under a rock somewhere who wouldn't mind having their "next" student lined up and has an off-hours airplane habit.

This is also how @jesse and I met and ended up doing my Instrument a while back. He said, "If you want to come to Nebraska we could get that thing knocked out." You can find that whole story written up here in an archive thread, but we flew from evening until midnight and on some nights later, for a week. By the end, even this night owl was getting a little fatigued, but it was a fun experience. I wouldn't change how I got that done back then at all. I wouldn't have been able to do it any other way with my schedule I had back then.

Good luck finding someone. There's people out there who will and can do oddball schedules.
What, you didn't want to do spins in Spence's little red & white biplane? (evil laugh).
 
Little bit of a sidebar: How much of the instructor fee does the CFI get vs the school? Is it a 50/50 split? 60/40?

Just curious, if you're a CFI you don't need to be overly specific. And yeah, I realize every school will have different numbers.
 
Little bit of a sidebar: How much of the instructor fee does the CFI get vs the school? Is it a 50/50 split? 60/40?

Just curious, if you're a CFI you don't need to be overly specific. And yeah, I realize every school will have different numbers.

Most schools bill em out at $50hr ish and give their CFI $25ish, this is normally via 1099, so they only are actually making $18hr :(

Thus why it's hard to find anyone worth a damn at a big school, all the guys who have the chopps go freelance
 
Most schools bill em out at $50hr ish and give their CFI $25ish, this is normally via 1099, so they only are actually making $18hr :(

Thus why it's hard to find anyone worth a damn at a big school, all the guys who have the chopps go freelance

Thanks, appreciate the reply.
 
Most schools bill em out at $50hr ish and give their CFI $25ish, this is normally via 1099, so they only are actually making $18hr :(

Thus why it's hard to find anyone worth a damn at a big school, all the guys who have the chopps go freelance
Previous school on my field was $45 billed, CFI got $35. It got bought by the 600 pound flight school in the state, don't know it's charging now or what the split is.
 
Little bit of a sidebar: How much of the instructor fee does the CFI get vs the school? Is it a 50/50 split? 60/40?

Just curious, if you're a CFI you don't need to be overly specific. And yeah, I realize every school will have different numbers.
School would charge 60 I would get 21.
 
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