EXP documents

Discussion in 'Home Builders and Sport Pilots' started by Let'sgoflying!, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Tom's thread about using others' parts to construct an exp got me to wondering...
    If I buy a completed, flying exp, what paperwork must I be sure to acquire? (I'm seriously thinking about it).
    Ie:

    AROWE?
    Airframe/Eng/Prop logs
    Avionics documentation
    Build Logs?
    What else?
    Annotate each as "Mandatory if you want FAA's approval and need to buy insurance" or the alternate "really should have but not mandatory".

    And, is it possible to have an airplane in which the original AirCert was approved by a 'slack' examiner......only later to be rescinded upon finding of undesirable details by a 'tough' examiner? Hopefully unlikely if possible.
     
  2. Anymouse

    Anymouse Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Since this theoretical aircraft is already flying, and I assumed registered, I would just add op limits to the stuff you've already listed. Be sure to get anything else that you might need with a normally certified aircraft.
     
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  3. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    Airworthiness cert and a bill of sale.
     
  4. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    You need/want all the same docs that would come with the sale of any airplane. As Anymouse stated you'd want to make sure the oplims are there as they are actually an addendum to the AWC and the AWC is invalid unless the oplims are physically with it.

    One difference from a standard certificatied aircraft is for E-AB aircraft there's no requirement for a POH/AFM although many builders/owners produce one anyway.

    And besides all the normal logs, I'd want any build logs and build manuals, component/system install and operation manuals, and warranty paperwork.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  5. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Assuming already done been flying, don't need builders logs - those just demonstrate that the aircraft was eligible for an E-AB certificate. But, would be nice to have (don't have them for my ride, I do have the original manual for the kit, but it is semi-worthless because it just lists kit part numbers and not materials / thicknesses.) You would want the builders "log" if you are buying a not quite done airplane.
    There should be some kind of "handbook". This can range from two pages of typed information to an actual book that was supplied with the kit.
    Do need data plate, airworthiness certificate, operating limitations, bill of sale on the same FAA form as any other aircraft.
    Logs are nice to have - but, as with any aircraft, may be a work of fiction - same as the W&B. There should be a statement in some kind of log that it was flown for the 40 hours, best rate of climb is xx etc. The actual wording is found on the FAA web site somewhere.
    I got no documentation on the avionics for mine.
    The only inspection you would need is the annual condition inspection by an A&P of your choice (or the guy with the repairman's certificate)
    Insurance just wanted to know make/modelish, value, and how many hours I have (and said I had to get x hours dual first).


    Edit: Required wording
    http://www.faa-aircraft-certification.com/amateur-built-operating-limitations.html
    Compliance with FAR 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  6. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Capt. Thorpe covered everything else so I'll jump on this one.

    No. The aircraft is only examined once during it's original airworthiness inspection. The only way that I could see a second inspection happening would be if during a ramp check there were some REALLY serious issues which caused the FAA rep to request another. But that's just a guess.
     
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  7. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    There's no requirement for a POH/AFM on many certficated aircraft.

    The one thing you will have a hard time replacing if you don't get it is the operating limitations issued during its certification.

    Of course, to make the rather picky bastards in the aircraft registration branch happy you need PROPERLY completed bill of sale and registration applications.
     
  8. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    Operating limitations? Do you mean flight test results? It’s experimental. Those aren’t set in stone, they were just an administrative requirement to get past the 40 hour flight test period. The new owner can set his gross weight and other limitations as he sees fit.
     
  9. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    One thing I'll add. My logbooks on my oder aircraft have been a mess. I should fix that, and if I ever get motivated I will. Logs on a new aircraft should be very nicely organized, in a nice three ring binder with sections for prop, engine, airframe and avionics and where you can put in more pages to add what you need. A bunch of books stapled together (sort of the standard in my experience) is not acceptable.

    The reason I mention this is it gives some insight into the working habits of the builder. Did they take care of every detail? Or did they just make a shiny mess?
     
  10. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I think you're mistaken. OpLims (as previously stated) are a required addendum to AWC and must be in the aircraft. Also, you should make sure the OpLims meet your needed flying. For example, for an RV it is common but not universal to have a clause stating that IFR operation is allowed if equipped IAW with FAR xx.xxx. So if you want to fly IFR your ops must so allow.

    Note: keep a copy at home and a copy in the plane. I bought mine and the test area was in a different state. I changed props and needed to go back to Phase I and have my oplims reissued so that the test area was near the plane!

    Also, I did not get the build log, but I got the complete set of plans which has been useful since it has handwritten notes on it.
     
  11. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    also on logs = the op lims (link above) require that the condition inspections be logged, but do not require that you log normal maintenance. The original builder of my ride only logged the inspections which kinda sucks, but of course, is the best way to maintain "no damage history".
     
  12. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    +1 on that! My original builder logged just about everything but washing her! The intermediate owners were far less detailed. I find I'm somewhere in between.
     
  13. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    No, I mean operating limitations. THEY ARE SET IN STONE. They are about the only thing that is on an experimental. When the ExAB plane is given it's (special) airworthiness certificate those are issued. They prescribe both the limitations for the flight test period and for the time after that is completed. There's now a specimen set in the FAA handbook for the inspectors to follow, but they are "customized" for each aircraft certified. THEY MUST BE WITH THE PLANE. They are a required document. It's easier to get just about anything else replaced on an experimental.
     
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  14. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    I understand they're required to be in the plane but nobody I know adheres to them.
     
  15. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    Man I know this is going to open a can of worms, but I've got to ask, what do you mean no one you know adheres to them? Can you give us some examples? My experience is exactly the opposite.
     
  16. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I'm with @tsts4 - What you talkin' bout Willis?

    The Oplims don't state any performance numbers, they state the way you document them, and they state the allowable usage, and set out the duration and limits of Phase I, and the stuff that requires return to Phase I.
     
  17. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Older versions of the op-lims prohibit operating over congested areas (except takeoff and landing) even after phase 1 is complete.
     
  18. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    I'm immersed in the process right now. I have lots of exp owner and builder friends. I've shared my take on the topic. I don't care of everyone agrees with it.
     
  19. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That doesn't need to even be in the oplims. It's the opposite, in fact. Your experimental is so restricted unless the operating limitations say otherwise.

    91.319
    (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
     
  20. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    upload_2017-12-28_8-57-13.png

    You mean this line? Now I'll sound like a lawyer: Can you define "densely populated area" and have you determined that my intention was not to take off or land?

    Note: Worms indeed!
     
  21. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    Don't know the exact wording of older oplims, but here's mine issued under 8130.2G (2J is current):
    PHASE I
    Except for takeoff and landing, this aircraft may not be operated or over densely populated areas or in congested airways.

    This makes sense to me since you are testing your aircraft and should IMO be restricted accordingly.

    PHASE II
    This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing n the event of a power unit failure without hazard to persons or property on the ground.


    So there's really nothing to ignore during phase II IMO. I fly out of the DC SFRA and file IFR a lot. It's a non-issue.
     
  22. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    That pretty much applies to ALL aircraft, experimental or not. I don’t really see a restriction there.
     
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  23. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    This is in my (older) phase II, issued in 2003. I don't have a digital copy of the new lims with me:
    upload_2017-12-28_9-36-51.png

    Again, lawyer-ease. Does that mean "5 and 6" or "5 or 6"

    Note to self: scan the new one!
     
  24. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Older versions don't undo the phase 1 restrictions. Can't give you dates on when this was changed, because I don't have everything in front of me. When were yours issued? I assume since the '90s.
     
  25. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, 2015. However, it's pretty easy to get new OPLIMS issued in order to get the latest verbiage or to change a parameter like approval for aerobatic flight.
     
  26. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Someone wanted an example, I provided an example.

    Another example would be taking someone along for the ride during phase 1 (for the record: Not me.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  27. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    Okay, you got me on that one. Although, if properly qualified a single pilot passenger is now allowed during Phase I flights IAW AC 90-116, Additional Pilot Program (and I know that's not what you were referring to in your example).

    But to be honest I was thinking about Phase II violations since Phase II is significantly less restrictive than Phase I.
     
  28. Anymouse

    Anymouse Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    When I got my oplims, all possible limitations were listed, similar to the partial stuff you attached. However, there was another page that said which limits applied in Phase I and Phase II. For limits 5 and 6 in your post, limit #5 would have applied during Phase I. After you moved into Phase II, then Limit 6 would apply.
     
  29. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ha! That's funny.

    My DAR incorrectly used the old verbiage which meant that I could not operate over densely populated areas or in congested airways... period. FSDO said I had to send in my existing AWC in order to get a new one issued. Said they would not issue a new AWC and OpLim's without the old one in hand. I didn't trust any delivery service with that because if it gets lost, then that's whole new nightmare. So I asked if I could fly up and bring it in person. "Sure. But it'll be a week before the new one is issued so you'll have to leave your plane here since you won't have an AWC."

    I escalated the issue and about two weeks later, a new AWC and OpLim's arrived. With the new wording.

    But for some reason they removed my IFR flight approval.

    Another back and forth with the FSDO and then a couple more weeks later I receive my new AWC.

    So... I should be easy. But depending on your FSDO, I might not be.
     
  30. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It says right on the airworthiness certificate:
    Operating Limitations dated xx/xx/xxxx are part of this certificate.

    So since the OpLim's are part of the AWC, and you have to carry the AWC in order to be legal... Flying without the OpLim's is the same thing as flying without the AWC.

    upload_2017-12-28_11-19-4.png
     
  31. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I think you are most likely correct. Those were snipped from a scan of my 2003 oplims from phase II section.

    I'll grab my current OpLims, issued in 2014, and update with the differences. I can swing by hangar on the way home this evening.
     
  32. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Would love to see to an example of OpLims to know what I should be looking for.
    FAA letterhead/logo?
    Examiner's signature?
    one page?
     
  33. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    Here ya go.
     

    Attached Files:

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  34. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    While Todd submitted a good EXAMPLE, you need to review the actual one issued for the plane you may purchase.

    Things like "test area" are important. (and in his example I have no idea what EASTERN means.
     
  35. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, long story short I had some issues with the FSDO so when I saw that I just let slide in order to get on with it. Pretty sure they just had a saved template of the document and whomever typed it up either forgot or just plain missed it. FWIW, this is what I actually submitted in my program letter (accompanied by a portion of a Sectional with the area graphically marked) and flew during my Phase I:

    "I request airworthiness certification and operating limitations be issued permitting me to operate the aircraft within the following geographical area for flight testing. Initial flights will determine engine reliability and flight control characteristics. A flight test plan has been developed using the guidance in AC 90-89A and is available for review:

    30NM radius of the Casanova VORTAC (CSN) excluding Washington Class B airspace."
     
  36. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    @tsts4 - that looks more like a test area ;)

    And to the guy considering buying a flying EXP, make sure you've read the OpLims in advance, for things like we've been reviewing.
     
  37. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Oops! The Make of your aircraft on your oplims should not be "Van's Aircraft". It should be the name of the amatuer builder, not the kit manufacturer. The manufacturer/builder/make should be the same on everything. This includes the registration, data plate, airworthiness, oplims, and on all documents submitted in support of the application.
     
  38. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Yeah, that test area is bogus.
     
  39. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Yah, another of those "variables" in the process. His registration looks correct but the Oplims are wrong for Make.

    And another thing the OP should be aware of as he ventures in to buying an Exp.
     
  40. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Q1
    Let's say an exp is for sale and the seller cannot come up with an OpsLim.
    Can it be reproduced or replaced (does the FAA have them on file)?
    If not, what is the recourse?

    Q2
    What about an exp that is for sale, and the test flights have not been completed.