Exiting the Runway

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
OK, so yesterday I was coming into a towered field (very quiet afternoon). I was cleared to land, landed and taxied off the runway, but not past the hold line. Just silence from the tower. I was about to query them, when the tower told me to "taxi to parking, monitor ground".

Upon tuning ground frequency, the ground controller reminded me to ALWAYS cross the hold line when exiting the runway. Yes, my fault, I should have crossed it. However it does bring up an interesting question.

Take a look at the attached picture of the taxiway. Having just landed, with no instruction from the tower, if I were to taxi completely past the hold line, I would be blocking the taxiway. Do they really want me taxiing out into, and blocking, an active taxiway that could have traffic on it? Both seem like bad options.

Thoughts?
 

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The runway environment is more important than the taxi way. If ground control is on top of their job,they will have the taxi traffic co- ordinated. The hold line is there for a reason.
 
dans2992 said:
OK, so yesterday I was coming into a towered field (very quiet afternoon). I was cleared to land, landed and taxied off the runway, but not past the hold line. Just silence from the tower. I was about to query them, when the tower told me to "taxi to parking, monitor ground".

Upon tuning ground frequency, the ground controller reminded me to ALWAYS cross the hold line when exiting the runway. Yes, my fault, I should have crossed it. However it does bring up an interesting question.

Take a look at the attached picture of the taxiway. Having just landed, with no instruction from the tower, if I were to taxi completely past the hold line, I would be blocking the taxiway. Do they really want me taxiing out into, and blocking, an active taxiway that could have traffic on it? Both seem like bad options.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Not your choice or decision unless you see an immediate threat or problem. Tower has responsibility of managing aircraft on the ground on the runways and taxiways. You are responsible to getting past the hold line, otherwise you are still legally on the runway, preventing other aircraft operations.
 
Clearing the runway is more important than clearing the taxiway and officially the runway ends past the hold short line. So yeah, you should have blocked the taxiway. If something like that will become a real problem for them they'll move the hold short line.
 
what an odd placement of the hold short line.
 
Always clear the hold short line. If tower has a guy on the taxi way, they will coordinate with you and him and give you instructions
 
Absent any instructions to the contrary exit at the next available taxiway (ignoring reverse highspeeds and especially any crossing runways) and taxi fully past the hold short line and stop.

Here's the passage from the AIM

The following procedures must be followed after
landing and reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first
available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by
ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto
another runway unless authorized by ATC. At
airports with an operating control tower, pilots should
not stop or reverse course on the runway without first
obtaining ATC approval.
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise
directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the
runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the
runway edge and there are no restrictions to its
continued movement beyond the runway holding
position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions,
the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing
runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding
position markings associated with the landing
runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude
into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all
parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding
position markings, the pilot must hold unless further
instructions have been issued by ATC.
NOTE−
1. The tower will issue the pilot instructions which will
permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or
ramp area when required.
2. Guidance contained in subparagraphs a and b above is
considered an integral part of the landing clearance and
satisfies the requirement of 14 CFR Section 91.129.
c. Immediately change to ground control frequency
when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi
clearance.
NOTE−
1. The tower will issue instructions required to resolve any
potential conflictions with other ground traffic prior to
advising the pilot to contact ground control.
2. Ground control will issue taxi clearance to parking.
That clearance does not authorize the aircraft to “enter”
or “cross” any runways. Pilots not familiar with the taxi
route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC.
​
 
I've seen worse.

Check out

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3312665,-121.8185925,397m/data=!3m1!1e3

When landing 31L, you must exit the runway, but not cross 31R. There is just barely enough room between the hold short lines. When landing 31R, you have to block twy Y, just like the OP.

The real fun in that airport, though, is short final for 31R. It has you staring right in the front door of JC Penney.
 
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Cambridge Dorchester over on the easter shore of Maryland used to have the entire taxiway inside the hold short lines. That was the goofiest thing I ever saw. They've subsequently fixed that.
 
You don't get to decide that the layout is dumb and you are not going to follow it, you have to clear the runway environment. Coordinating traffic is the tower's responsibility, not yours. You can see if there is an immediate traffic hazard by looking out the windows.
 
flyingron said:
Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.
Click to expand...

This is an important point too: don't leave your tail hanging out beyond the hold short markings.
 
murphey said:
Not your choice or decision unless you see an immediate threat or problem. Tower has responsibility of managing aircraft on the ground on the runways and taxiways. You are responsible to getting past the hold line, otherwise you are still legally on the runway, preventing other aircraft operations.
Click to expand...


Not saying it was a choice. Clearly, I was wrong here, however it does seem like the placement of the hold line could invite some unintended consequences.

This was at the end of a long flight from Mexico. I was tired. Just had a brain malfunction for a moment.
 
From the AIM:
4−3−20. Exiting the Runway After Landing The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.
 
Brad Z said:
This is an important point too: don't leave your tail hanging out beyond the hold short markings.
Click to expand...

Except at KRHV, you may have to choose between that and an incursion on the parallel runway.

All the taxiways are on one side of the airport, and at busy times, both runways are in use for landings.
 
MAKG1 said:
I've seen worse.

Check out

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3312665,-121.8185925,397m/data=!3m1!1e3

When landing 31L, you must exit the runway, but not cross 31R. There is just barely enough room between the hold short lines. When landing 31R, you have to block twy Y, just like the OP.

The real fun in that airport, though, is short final for 31R. It has you staring right in the front door of JC Penney.
Click to expand...

Yeah it is a little goofy looking, but unless you're flying something the size of a 707 you shouldn't have an issue as long as you taxi up to the next hold short line. But then, why would you be landing at RHV and not SJC.
 
dans2992 said:
Not saying it was a choice. Clearly, I was wrong here, however it does seem like the placement of the hold line could invite some unintended consequences.

This was at the end of a long flight from Mexico. I was tired. Just had a brain malfunction for a moment.
Click to expand...

I'd fill out a NASA ASRS form, if the controller filled out an ATSAP there is a good chance the higher ups will look into modifying the procedure (or the hold short line).
 
Looks like falcon field. They really protect the runways there.
 
You all must be at busier fields than mine. We have a tower and a ground freq but it's the same guy running both and the way they have it set up he always transmits on both(so you often hear one half of a conversation).

Unless there happens to be someone else on the taxiway(which there rarely is) after landing it's always "turn when able, taxi to parking of this frequency". You only really use ground to call them up when first taxiing out to take off and I bet if I called him on tower he wouldn't know the difference.
 
dans2992 said:
however it does seem like the placement of the hold line could invite some unintended consequences.
Click to expand...
The controller is aware of the placement of the hold short line. If they need you to do something other than what is written in the AIM they will tell you. i.e. "...hold short of taxiway Yankee"
 
cowman said:
You all must be at busier fields than mine. We have a tower and a ground freq but it's the same guy running both and the way they have it set up he always transmits on both(so you often hear one half of a conversation).

Unless there happens to be someone else on the taxiway(which there rarely is) after landing it's always "turn when able, taxi to parking of this frequency". You only really use ground to call them up when first taxiing out to take off and I bet if I called him on tower he wouldn't know the difference.
Click to expand...
That often happens at my airport when it's not busy but it's also quite common to hear "turn right on foxtrot, contact ground on point seven when clear.

In that case you're expected to cross the hold lines, perform your after landing cleanup and call ground when you're ready to taxi.
 
Larry in TN said:
The controller is aware of the placement of the hold short line. If they need you to do something other than what is written in the AIM they will tell you. i.e. "...hold short of taxiway Yankee"
Click to expand...

I've also heard aircraft already on the taxiway being told to "give way to exiting traffic at Foxtrot (or wherever)." The controllers seem to give the traffic coming off the runway the right of way when necessary.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
As well they should.
Click to expand...


Yes.

There was the accident at KOJC a couple years ago when two taxiiing airplanes ran into each other at an intersection - one was on the taxiway, one was on the intersection, just beyond the hold short lines after leaving the rwy. One of the planes did not yield when told. At OJC there is plenty of room to stay clear of the taxiway after you exit the rwy.
 
dans2992 said:
OK, so yesterday I was coming into a towered field (very quiet afternoon). I was cleared to land, landed and taxied off the runway, but not past the hold line. Just silence from the tower. I was about to query them, when the tower told me to "taxi to parking, monitor ground".

Upon tuning ground frequency, the ground controller reminded me to ALWAYS cross the hold line when exiting the runway. Yes, my fault, I should have crossed it. However it does bring up an interesting question.

Take a look at the attached picture of the taxiway. Having just landed, with no instruction from the tower, if I were to taxi completely past the hold line, I would be blocking the taxiway. Do they really want me taxiing out into, and blocking, an active taxiway that could have traffic on it? Both seem like bad options.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Skipping to bottom of thread to state what every other response has probably already said... :D

Yes. If instructed to contact ground, make sure the whole airplane is across that line, stop, then call ground. If you're told taxi to parking this freq or whatever then it becomes moot of course as you don't have to stop.

I've heard ATC gripe at many pilots for either continuing fully onto the taxiway or for leaving their tail over the hold line at KAPA in Denver. They want you to stop just across that hold line, but fully across. Ground will instruct any conflicting taxiing traffic to hold as needed.

If the tail is over the line, the runway is occupied and other aircraft cannot land.

I got issued a go-around once because a taildragger's (forgot the type) engine died with his tail just over the line landing #2 on 28 at KAPA. The runway was otherwise clear but they couldn't clear me to land.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I've seen worse.

Check out

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3312665,-121.8185925,397m/data=!3m1!1e3

When landing 31L, you must exit the runway, but not cross 31R. There is just barely enough room between the hold short lines. When landing 31R, you have to block twy Y, just like the OP.

The real fun in that airport, though, is short final for 31R. It has you staring right in the front door of JC Penney.
Click to expand...

VGT is that close for 12L/R and the associated taxiway between them. Also clearing 12R to the west blocks the taxiway.
 
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